Playboy Interview: Art Buchwald

Marvin Kitman, our interviewer this month, was himself the subject of a "Playboy Interview" of sorts when we buttonholed him briefly in our "After Hours" pages last July, at the climax of his tongue-in-cheek campaign for the Republican Presidential nomination. Back, like Barry, in private life, Kitman has become a contributing writer for The Saturday Evening Post, returned to his job as "News-Managing" Editor of Monocle, a monthly magazine of political and social satire, and is currently engaged in chronicling the saga of his ill-fated bid for the nation's highest office, soon to be published by Dial Press. Debuting as a Playboy interviewer, he writes of his subject:

"The Art Buchwald I knew in Paris was an innocent kid. His idea of fun when he was a nobody was singing with Edith Piaf under the bridges of the Seine and dancing in the rain with Gene Kelly on the cobblestone streets of Montmartre. As a result, none of his friends thought he would amount to much in Paris. But I did. The night I first met him, in 1956, he was sitting in a quaint little French bistro called Maxim's eating dinner with Sophia Loren. I became convinced he was a real comer when I saw him walk out of Maxim's that night into Aristotle Onassis' waiting limousine.

"Still, we all felt sorry for Art in Europe. The syndicated column he had been writing in Paris for the New York Herald Tribune since 1949 just wasn't getting anywhere. It only appeared in 125 papers in the United States, Europe, Africa and Asia. What Art never seemed to realize was that decent people weren't interested in a column that made fun of Americans abroad, the international set, showbiz celebrities and other sacred institutions.

"Years passed and nothing was heard from Buchwald. Then, unexpectedly, I received a letter from him in 1959, mailed from the Hotel Metropole in Moscow. Art had been touring Russia in a Chrysler Imperial to show the enslaved peoples behind the Iron Curtain what a bloated plutocratic capitalist really looked like. The envelope contained nothing but a tightly folded wad of paper the size of a postage stamp, which bore a single word: Help. Not wishing to become involved, I didn't answer the letter.

"But it was I who first advised Art to come home from Europe. I also told him to collect his columns and make eight books out of them. And I was the one who suggested that he write a musical comedy called 'The Spy in G Flat' with Russ Baker of The New York Times. And I told him he should do stand-up comedy on a TV program called 'The Entertainers.' After 14 years in self-exile, he followed my advice, came home and did all the things I'd told him to. As I'd also predicted, his column began appearing in 225 newspapers. Suddenly, thanks to me, Art Buchwald was the toast of America and the darling of the smart set.

"But when Playboy asked me to interview Art, I thought twice about taking on the assignment. I was afraid that he might have gotten a swelled head from his fabulous overnight success--and I didn't want to see that. Overcoming my misgivings when Playboy raised my price, however, I decided to accept the job. I found my 39-year-old subject sitting in a director's chair marked 'Big Daddy' by the edge of a swimming pool behind his $150,000 French Provincial split-level in the Wesley Hills suburban-renewal section of our nation's capital. His three children were splashing happily in the pool. He said he didn't know them. 'I'm just working here as a lifeguard,' he swore.

"To his credit, he seemed embarrassed by his new affluence. 'This isn't really our house,' he apologized. 'We live in that $125,000 house next door. But the people who own this one lend it to us when we have visitors so we can impress them.' I was impressed.

"My old friend hadn't changed physically. One of his major assets as a humorist had always been his dashing appearance. James Thurber once remarked that Buchwald bore a striking resemblance to the late Rudolph Valentino. But Thurber's vision was failing even then. I always thought Art looked more like a pensive owl smoking a cigar. The physical characteristic you notice most about him is his bright eyes--especially at night.

"His attitude toward his old friends hadn't changed, either. He had always been a nice guy, particularly to other journalists. 'Here are the questions I expect you to ask me, fella,' he said, handing me a typed list. When I took out my own list, he threatened to throw me into the swimming pool. 'But that's news management,' I said. 'If you can't have censorship,' he explained, 'news management is the next best thing.' Appeased, I began asking the questions from his list. To all of them, however, he answered, 'No comment.' He then told several obvious lies about his past. 'I never promised to answer any of the questions honestly,' he said when I objected. 'If you're out to embarrass me, I'll call the editors of Playboy and have them kill the interview. Then I'll ruin you personally.' 'May I quote you on that?' I inquired. 'Of course not,' he replied. We agreed to keep it off the record and proceeded with the interview."

[Q] Playboy: As America's leading satirist ...

[A] Buchwald: Before you go any further, I'd like to modify that. I'm a great satirist, but I wouldn't say I was the leading one.

[Q] Playboy: We were referring to Mort Sahl, as a matter of fact. But as long as you've mentioned yourself, do you agree with Sahl that these times of political heat and social unrest call for more biting commentary from our nation's humorists?

[A] Buchwald: On the contrary, I think there's entirely too much humor going around. I'd like to see a lot less humor in this country. Even the President of the U.S. is trying to make jokes. A law ought to be passed requiring that only certain people be allowed to practice humor. I favor licensing humorists, like doctors or lawyers, so that no one else could make jokes. As a matter of fact, I would prefer to be the only one allowed to make jokes.

[Q] Playboy: Does it annoy you when somebody else writes something funny?

[A] Buchwald: Are you trying to be funny? Of course it annoys me. What am I supposed to do--laugh?

[Q] Playboy: Let's not engage in personalities. Do you feel that satire plays a constructive and important role in our society?

[A] Buchwald: I think satire is among the most powerful weapons we have. You can do more with it than with any other kind of writing. For example, before the Republican Convention last year, most humorists and satirists were making fun of Barry Goldwater. They really gave him a terrific lampooning. I'm convinced that if it hadn't been for them, Goldwater might have gotten the Republican nomination.

[Q] Playboy: You may be right. But if you think satire is such a powerful weapon, why isn't your column funny? Why don't you use the power of the press to poke fun at Congress, the State Department, the Pentagon and the White House?

[A] Buchwald: I've been under a lot of pressure from well-meaning but cynical friends to do just that: to actually hold our most sacred institutions up to scorn and ridicule. But I've been strong. Being a good American comes before making a buck, in my book. For too many years now we've had irresponsible people making fun of our Government and our honest, hard-working politicians, and everyone in Washington is getting sick of it. Any country with a nine-billion-dollar annual deficit is no laughing matter. These smart-aleck satirical egghead beatniks who make light of the United States of America are playing into the hands of our enemy, godless communism. And that's the worst kind of communism.

[Q] Playboy: We have here in our hand documentary evidence--one of your own columns--indicating that you may be lying in that reply. In it, you make fun of one of our nation's most beloved institutions, the FBI, and its revered director.

[A] Buchwald: I only said there are so many FBI informers in the Communist Party that there aren't many Communists left, and that most of the dues being paid by the Party members, therefore, come from FBI funds. I also said that maybe someday soon J. Edgar Hoover will be elected chairman of the American Communist Party. What's so satirical about that?

[Q] Playboy: Isn't that inconsistent with your policy of not making fun of anybody?

[A] Buchwald: Well, maybe a little bit, but you're allowed to make fun of the FBI, because they have such a good sense of humor. That's one thing about the FBI: They never get upset when you make fun of them. You may get a call from two FBI agents the morning after the column appears--at three o'clock in the morning--but it's always a friendly call. It's the one organization in Washington that doesn't mind being laughed at.

[Q] Playboy: Let's see you laugh this off. It's been alleged, by highly placed sources whose names we're not at liberty to divulge, that you, Arthur Buchwald, are a conscious agent of the international Communist conspiracy. Your column, we've been informed, is regularly translated into Russian and published behind the Iron Curtain. Are you now, or have you ever been ...

[A] Buchwald: You're impugning my loyalty, and I'm afraid I can't stand for that. What I'm about to tell you is absolutely top secret, and I can't allow you to quote me on it, but my column is actually a code for CIA agents in Russia. Every third word in the column is a message to one of our people. It was through my column, as a matter of fact--and this is strictly confidential--that our agents in Moscow got the word from Washington to have Khrushchev fired.

[Q] Playboy: How long have you been a double agent for the Herald Tribune and the CIA?

[A] Buchwald: Since my days in Paris. There my column was a code for messages from our agents in Paris--some of them in the Elysée itself--to CIA H. Q. in Washington. But keep that under your beret.

[Q] Playboy: Check. When you first announced your decision to come home, you said you'd miss taking those long walks in the Bois de Boulogne with Brigitte Bardot, water-skiing with Princess Grace, playing baccarat with the Rothschilds, having candlelight dinners with Elizabeth Taylor, and swapping jokes with General Raoul Salan at Santé Prison. Well, we have the sworn testimony of all of these people that they've never even met you.

[A] Buchwald: I never said I actually did any of those things. But I'm going to miss them anyway.

[Q] Playboy: In any case, what made you decide to give up your purportedly exciting, madcap, wicked life in Paris and return to America?

[A] Buchwald: It may sound "square" to you, but I returned to my homeland because I like to think of myself as a patriotic American. I happen to be old-fashioned enough to believe that the word "patriotism" is still a living truth. As soon as I found out that French taxes were going to be higher than American taxes, I decided to come back home to this great country of ours. Besides, I had helped out De Gaulle as much as I could, and I felt I was needed here.

[Q] Playboy: By the CIA?

[A] Buchwald: No, I was asked personally by Walter Lippmann, Arthur Krock and David Lawrence to come back and become the Dean of the Washington Press Corps. None of them wanted the title anymore, and they asked if I would head the thing up. It doesn't pay anything, of course, but I couldn't very well refuse a clear-cut mandate.

[Q] Playboy: Is it your ambition to become the man at the White House press conferences who says, "Thank you, Mr. President"?

[A] Buchwald: No, that's the job of Merriman Smith. My job is different. After Merriman says, "Thank you, Mr. President," I say, "Are you putting us on, Mr. President?"

[Q] Playboy: Johnson is actually the second President you've given the benefit of your counsel, isn't he? We understand you played an important liaison role between the CIA and the White House at the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion.

[A] Buchwald: Thanks for the compliment, but I wasn't here then. I was in France helping De Gaulle lose Algeria at the time. But I did help out in Washington during the second Cuban crisis. The Government was split into the Doves and the Hawks, and I had a conciliatory third group going: the Chickens.

[Q] Playboy: According to a reliable informant--yourself--you've had a high percentage of news beats since your return to Washington. You were the first newsman, for example, to reveal how President Johnson finally picked his running mate. "Up until convention time," you wrote exclusively, "the President still had no idea whom he wanted to give the job to. Then, on the third day of the convention, while he was eating lunch with Mrs. Johnson, she said to him, 'You know, Lyndon, we owe the Humphreys a dinner.' The President said, 'Ah don't have time to have dinner with the Humphreys, but ah tell you what, Lady Bird, ah'll make it up to them some way.' " How did you manage to get this historic scoop?

[A] Buchwald: The most important element of my success as a reporter is that I don't talk to anybody. I think it's a very bad mistake for a columnist in Washington to speak to anybody, to solicit opinions, to muddle the issues by presenting two sides of the story. I have found on the couple of occasions when I've actually gone out and spoken to people, I've gotten very confused. So I've adopted the practice of establishing a tight security net around my office. I lock myself inside, pull down the shades, check the room for hidden microphones, and--you're not recording this, are you?

[Q] Playboy: Of course not.

[A] Buchwald: Good. I check out the room, then pick up my red telephone, dial a number known only to me, and ask them to send up all the Washington newspapers, which I spend the rest of the day reading. On the basis of this information--all of it inside stuff--I'm able to write my story.

[Q] Playboy: Using that system, we'd like you to analyze the 1964 election results. To what do you attribute the Republicans' overwhelming defeat?

[A] Buchwald: Lack of votes, I think. If they had had more votes than the Democrats, they'd probably have won. But this is just hindsight, you know--Monday-morning quarterbacking.

[Q] Playboy: Some Republican Party leaders seem to think that the press, particularly the columnists and commentators, contributed to their defeat. What's your reaction to that charge?

[A] Buchwald: As I see it, we columnists and commentators were victims of the white tongue-lash. But to tell you the truth, I was disappointed that the Democrats didn't attack us, too. Goldwater, Eisenhower, Nixon--they didn't let us down. They gave us the public recognition we've long so richly deserved. Many newsmen who were going to vote Democratic consequently voted Republican. As the election results indicated, the Democrats made a big mistake in being friendly toward us.

[Q] Playboy: Did you really play a key role, as you've alleged in your column, in determining the candidates' campaign strategies?

[A] Buchwald: Yes, during the campaign I advised both the President and Goldwater not to come out against violence in the streets. I was afraid they'd lose the violent vote, and it turned out that I was right. They both attacked violence in the streets and--well, you know the situation today where you don't have violence in the streets anymore. They're sorry they didn't take my advice.

[Q] Playboy: What do you feel was the big issue that won for the Democrats?

[A] Buchwald: It was the little things that had a great effect on this election. In Washington, for example, I had a Democratic friend who used to go around tipping taxi drivers a nickel and then saying, "Vote Republican." Another guy had a gimmick that he said worked miracles. He picked people's names out of the phone book and called them up at two A.M. and said, "Hi, there. I'm a volunteer for Goldwater-Miller. Would you have a few minutes to talk to me?" I know another Johnson man who helped out Goldwater by scattering Republican campaign literature on his neighbors' lawns. And there's this little old lady I know who put on tennis shoes and a Goldwater button and went around Georgetown insulting all the merchants.

[Q] Playboy: Did you give as unselfishly of your own time during the campaign?

[A] Buchwald: I tried to do my bit. My main contribution was to go around with a Goldwater button at parties making passes at all the independents' wives. And I like to think that my campaign slogan had some effect, too. I had a picture of Goldwater on a poster which read: "Would you want to buy a used bomb from this man?"

[Q] Playboy: Because of the networks' competition to be first in predicting the outcome of the election, many people were concerned about the possibility of a band-wagon movement, or even an underdog psychology, among voters watching the early returns on television in the West. How do you feel about it?

[A] Buchwald: Our whole system is in danger, in my opinion. We have a two-party, three-network system, and it must be preserved. We've seen a disastrous thing happen this year in which one network--NBC--completely dominated the other networks in its election-night coverage. Two men, Huntley and Brinkley--nice enough men on the surface, but very dangerous when they get that much power--singlehandedly put ABC and CBS in the shade. In other words, I think we should worry not about how TV is affecting elections, but about how elections are affecting the TV industry, which is what most people care about.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel about the role of the pollsters in influencing elections?

[A] Buchwald: Insidious. I wrote a column about what would have happened if there had been pollsters just before the Revolutionary War. On the basis of talking to people all over the colonies, they would have come to the conclusion that only ten percent of the public wanted to break away from the British, and that the rest liked the status quo. So if we had listened to the pollsters, we'd still be part of England.

[Q] Playboy: In the last election, there were many millions of Americans who didn't exercise their franchise. What can be done to overcome this apathy?

[A] Buchwald: There has to be some patriotic incentive to make people vote: I'd give them Green Stamps. Another thing I would recommend is letting people drink on Election Day. That way you'd get a lot more people voting. You'd even have people voting twice or three times.

[Q] Playboy: This next question is so personal we blush to ask it. We told the editors you wouldn't answer it. What did you think of the recent Presidential non-candidacy of Lincoln Republican Marvin Kitman?

[A] Buchwald: It's funny you should mention his name, because I was just thinking that you look a lot like him. But to answer your question, American politics has always had to put up with nuts. I was against Kitman's candidacy from the start. He was reaching too high when he tried for the Presidency. I think he should have started by running for Senator from New York.

[Q] Playboy: Let's change the subject. Many people were worried about what would have happened to this country if Goldwater had been elected. Were you?

[A] Buchwald: No, I don't think anything would have happened--except maybe by January 21 or 22, we'd all have been dead. But outside of that, I wasn't worried.

[Q] Playboy: You wrote during the campaign that Goldwater's 26,000,000 supporters had threatened to leave the country and emigrate to Canada if Johnson and Humphrey won. Do you know what's happened to them?

[A] Buchwald: Yes, I do. At the request of the Canadian government, I inspired "Take a Loser to Lunch Week" following Goldwater's defeat. During that week I asked each and every Johnson man to take a Goldwater voter to lunch and explain to him where he was wrong. I'm happy to report that the plan was a success: Only 5,000,000 of the 26,000,000 Goldwater voters have actually emigrated to Canada. And some of them have already come back because they found it's too cold up there in tennis shoes.

[Q] Playboy: Looking ahead to '68, what do you think the Republicans will need to win?

[A] Buchwald: A miracle. But apart from that, I think they could use another war hero like Ike. I like to see war heroes as President. I don't like to see old soldiers just fading away. That's one of my great regrets about that grand old general, Barry Goldwater, not getting elected. I think we would have had a lot of war heroes if he had gotten within reach of the Pentagon panic buttons. This would have become a country of war heroes. With Goldwater gone, the only one we've got left is Francis Gary Powers. I haven't seen anybody since Powers who lives up to my ideal. He'd make a great President.

[Q] Playboy: Do you agree with Richard Nixon that Richard Nixon will be the man to unify the Republican Party?

[A] Buchwald: I understand that Nixon's main interest now is the Pepsi-Cola Company, and I think he'll make a great contribution there. I've always felt that he should have been working for Pepsi instead of for the Government.

[Q] Playboy: Nixon was once considered a crafty politician, but according to some critics, he seems to have played his cards all wrong during the campaign. Have you been advising him?

[A] Buchwald: No, I've never offered to help Dick. I've always thought he was pretty funny without my help. It's nothing personal, you understand. I think he's a great American. But then, so are all the people I know: They're all great Americans.

[Q] Playboy: While we're on the subject of name-calling, what was your reaction to all the mudslinging that took place during the recent campaign?

[A] Buchwald: I enjoyed it. But you know, everybody in America seems to want to label everybody else. If you don't agree with the Democrats, you're a Bircher; if you don't agree with the Republicans, you're a Communist. You know, if everybody called a Bircher was a Bircher, this would be one hell of a dangerous country. And if everybody was a Commie who was called a Commie, we'd already be one of the satellite nations. I think name-calling is wrong. I don't call people who disagree with me Birchers or Commies. I call them extremists and lefties.

[Q] Playboy: There was a lot of talk during the campaign about the Communist menace in this country. Do you think there are many Communists in the Supreme Court, for example?

[A] Buchwald: According to the right wing, there are only nine. However, there is a Communist problem in this country. I've discovered since coming home that we have so many organizations to fight communism in every town, we don't really have enough Communists to go around. To help solve this problem, I've advocated a redistribution of Communist Party members. Each town gets one, and he's kind of the resident Communist. He's paid by the town to be the threat there. They get to throw garbage on his lawn and break his windows and all that; but he doesn't care because he's on salary, and the breakage goes on the expense account. It's a hell of a way to make a living, but it helps solve this country's Communist problem. I've tried to get J. Edgar Hoover to approve this idea, but he hasn't answered my letter yet. Another suggestion I've made to help solve the Red menace is for everyone to become a card-carrying anti-Communist. Everyone would have to carry this Certificate of Anticommunism in his wallet. These would be issued by the FBI, which would run a check on your background before letting you have one. If it's discovered that you're a registered Democrat, you'd be asked to take a lie-detector test in which you'd be questioned on your feelings toward Social Security, TVA, civil rights, the United Nations, Medicare and foreign aid. If it were found that you supported any of these, your certificate would be withheld, and the scarlet letter "C"--or "CD" for Communist Dupe--would be stamped on the back of all your clothes.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel about the extreme right-wing organization that calls itself the Minutemen?

[A] Buchwald: I think those guys are really performing a great service. They keep their guns by their beds, and they're ready any minute to go out into the streets and start shooting. I'd be worried if loyal Americans like that weren't around, because I don't think the police, the Army or even SAC could prevent an invasion if the Russians really wanted to invade. Having Minutemen is the one thing we have that really worries the Russians. This is the one deterrent preventing them from attacking us right now. I would even like to see more guns distributed throughout the nation. I'd like to see teenagers get guns. I think anybody who's old enough to go out at night, who can drive a car, and roll a drunk, and fight for his country, should have a gun.

[Q] Playboy: Do you regard that as a sound way to reduce the size of our standing Army?

[A] Buchwald: Certainly. I'm 100 percent in favor of decreasing the size of our standing Army and increasing the size of our sitting Army. I think our boys deserve a rest.

[Q] Playboy: From your previous remark about the inability of SAC to deter the Russians, you seem to be implying that Goldwater was right during the campaign about the alleged inadequacies of our retaliatory missile strength.

[A] Buchwald: I don't know who was right about our missiles' accuracy, McNamara or Goldwater. But early in the campaign I advocated a test that would have settled the matter. It consisted of seating Barry in a rowboat in the middle of the Pacific and having McNamara fire one of our missiles at him. Now, if our missiles are as unreliable as Goldwater claimed, it would have missed him, and McNamara would have had to apologize to Goldwater. But if it hit Goldwater, Barry would have had to withdraw from the Presidential race. McNamara was all for the idea, but Goldwater said he'd have to think it over. He still is, as far as I know.

[Q] Playboy: In view of Goldwater's stated wish to serve his country, win or lose, do you think President Johnson should appoint him to a Cabinet post?

[A] Buchwald: Certainly not. That would be wildly irresponsible. But we should find him something to do. Maybe he could be put in charge of our SAC bases. Just because he's not the commander in chief shouldn't prevent him from using SAC planes whenever he feels like attacking godless communism.

[Q] Playboy: It seems to us that you're displaying a callous disregard for the dangers of nuclear destruction.

[A] Buchwald: The real danger is not that there's going to be a nuclear holocaust, but that there won't be one, even if we want it. There are so many safeguards now that nobody's going to be able to push the button. The way it works is this: As I reported in a column called "Fail Peace," there's this WAVE in New York and a WAC in San Francisco. If the red alert is ever sounded, they'd have to meet in St. Louis and exchange keys. Then one goes to Nome, Alaska, and the other to New Orleans, where they give the keys to two lieutenants who then have to fly to Cape Kennedy. And then they both have to put the keys in the black box at the same time. The only hitch is there's just one lock, so they can never put the keys in simultaneously. So as it stands now, there's no possibility of setting off a war accidentally or otherwise. I understand the Russians have the same safeguards.

[Q] Playboy: Have you pointed out this stalemate to the President?

[A] Buchwald: I haven't been able to get an appointment with him yet. I've tried to contact him by letter and wire, but I guess he's been too busy to answer. So I leave notes under the White House gate. I've tried to get them to put up a suggestion box in front of the White House, but they haven't done it yet.

[Q] Playboy: Are you at liberty to tell us about any other advice you've given the President?

[A] Buchwald: Not all of it, of course, but I guess the security lid is off by now on my white paper to the President about economy in Government. One of the measures I proposed was to send our top-level communiqués to the Soviet Union by sea mail rather than by costly diplomatic couriers.

[Q] Playboy: Would that be fast enough during an international crisis?

[A] Buchwald: In such an emergency, we could send them a collect telegram; and if worst came to worst--say we'd launched an ICBM at Moscow by mistake--we could call them on the hot line, but after six P.M., when the rates go down. Another of my proposals, which is now being considered by the joint chiefs, is to make all SAC pilots fly tourist class. I might add that I also advocated turning out the lights in the White House long before L. B. J. suggested it.

[Q] Playboy: From your intimate knowledge of the Washington scene, can you give us the inside story on what life is really like in the White House?

[A] Buchwald: Well, nobody's ever proven it, but I hear there is no life in the White House.

[Q] Playboy: Haven't the Johnsons asked you over for a barbecue or a frug party?

[A] Buchwald: I've never been invited to the White House. But I harbor no bitterness about it. If he doesn't want to have me, that's his business. It's his house, after all. But I ask you: How much food could I eat? How much liquor could I drink? I don't even drink. But if he doesn't want to have me, I don't care. Let's change the subject.

[Q] Playboy: But you used to be such a social climber; you've written that it's your favorite sport.

[A] Buchwald: I climbed with the wrong people when I first came to Washington--the Massachusetts people, the Georgetown people, the New Frontier people. I didn't appreciate the importance of Texans. I won't make that mistake again. I'm already in with Bobby Baker's crowd.

[Q] Playboy: We get the impression from your remarks that you feel the air of intellectual excitement, the receptivity to creative new ideas which characterized the New Frontier has not been transferred to the Johnson Administration. Are we right?

[A] Buchwald: I'm afraid so, because most of the new ideas that I've suggested to President Johnson have been rejected.

[Q] Playboy: In that case, would you care to use this interview as a platform to give the Administration and the nation the benefit of your counsel on some of our thorniest foreign and domestic problems?

[A] Buchwald: Why not?

[Q] Playboy: All right. What do you think should be done about the United Nations?

[A] Buchwald: I believe we should get out of the United Nations. I think it should be made into an apartment house or the headquarters for a company like General Motors or A. T. & T. It galls me every time I go to New York and think that building is being used for peaceful purposes.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel about recognition of the Red Chinese?

[A] Buchwald: I've always found it rather difficult myself. They all look alike to me.

[Q] Playboy: We mean diplomatic recognition.

[A] Buchwald: Oh. Well, I'm against it, personally. Red China has been giving us so much trouble in Southeast Asia that it's better to continue our present policy of pretending she doesn't exist. She's just trying to get attention, anyway. If we ignore her, the problem will go away. Besides, we all know that the will of China's 700,000,000 people is truly represented not by the Commie regime in Peking, but by Chiang Kaishek and his 11,613,000 Nationalist Chinese on Formosa. In all fairness, though, I must admit that there is something to be said in favor of recognition. I don't want to say I'm in favor of recognition, because if I did I'd get in trouble with the John Birch Society and the Russian Communist Party. But if we were to recognize them, we'd be able to call them names; it's difficult to call anyone names whose existence is in doubt. Also, if we admitted Red China to the UN, we could have her blackballed as an aggressor and thrown out for violating the UN charter.

[Q] Playboy: We hadn't thought of that possibility. But how would you resolve the problem of what to do about Nationalist China, which is already a UN member?

[A] Buchwald: Simple. There should be a third China set up somewhere--maybe in Liechtenstein or Switzerland--which would have nothing to do with the other two Chinas. This would be Neutralist China, and this would be the one everybody would recognize. In this way we wouldn't have to hurt anybody's feelings by choosing between Communist China and Nationalist China. The more Chinas there are in the world, the happier everybody will be. Besides, if we had a third China to recognize, it would mean that we could line up with two Chinas against their one; in other words, we could choose two from Column A rather than one from Column B. The only trouble is that half an hour after recognizing the third China, we'd want to recognize another one.

[Q] Playboy: In pursuing a course of intransigent independence from the U.S., France has chosen to recognize Red China. As an old France-hand and confidant of Charles de Gaulle, what policy would you advise the Administration to pursue in dealing with the imperious French President?

[A] Buchwald: The Chuck de Gaulle I know is a regular fella. The trouble is, he's misunderstood in Washington. What they don't understand is that he's for a united Europe and against French nationalism. He prefers to sacrifice the interests of France for the good of the free world. If you just sit down and chew the fat with him, you'll never have any problems.

[Q] Playboy: Can you suggest an equally sound solution for the Cuba problem?

[A] Buchwald: Yes. Our course is clear. We should do absolutely nothing about it. Two years ago, Cuba was 90 miles away from the U.S. But the other day a friend of mine discovered it is now 91 miles away. So the Cuban problem is getting farther and farther away. Pretty soon it will float out to sea, and that will solve the problem.

[Q] Playboy: Your friends at the CIA tried to solve that problem somewhat differently at the Bay of Pigs. In view of such blunders, it's been suggested by some that the CIA's autonomous power in the field of espionage and intelligence be drastically curtailed. Do you agree?

[A] Buchwald: No, I think we need an occasional blunder such as only the CIA is capable of, so that our allies and the neutral nations don't begin to hate us for being too perfect. If we make a mistake now and then, it makes us seem more human in the world's eyes. But I think it's unfair to blame the CIA for everything that goes wrong in foreign affairs. That's giving them too much credit. I think they should be required to print a list of their failures every year so they don't get blamed for somebody else's failures. The more Pentagon failures they get credited with, the more money they get from Congress. That's wrong.

[Q] Playboy: Do you share the view of ex-Senator Goldwater that we should put an end to foreign aid?

[A] Buchwald: I like the sound of that.

[Q] Playboy: Of what?

[A] Buchwald:Ex-Senator Goldwater. Anyway, I certainly do not agree with him. I am a firm believer in foreign aid--economic and military, loans and grants. I think foreign governments should aid us to the very best of their ability.

[Q] Playboy: What do you think of the Peace Corps?

[A] Buchwald: A great force for peace. Instead of enemies, it's been making friends for us everywhere. People have learned to love us. If that's what you're going for in a foreign policy, I guess the Peace Corps is all right. But I happen to think the Peace Corps is a very big mistake.

[Q] Playboy: It's strange you should say that, for we are in possession of a dossier which shows that you once volunteered for the Peace Corps. What do you have to say about that?

[A] Buchwald: I was carried away in the beginning. I volunteered to go to Monte Carlo, because I thought that's where they really needed aid. The people down there are walking around half naked, some without even shoes, and they need help. I offered to live the life they did, drink the native wines, eat and sleep with them, show them I'm no better than they are just because I'm lucky enough to come from the greatest country in the world. But they turned down my application. That's what made me realize they weren't really sincere in wanting to help the overprivileged nations. All they've set out to do is sabotage the cause of anti-Americanism among our allies.

[Q] Playboy: How well have they succeeded?

[A] Buchwald: You'll still run into it here and there--wherever you find American tourists. They're the most anti-American people I've ever met. They're always saying, "We want to go where those boorish Americans don't go."

[Q] Playboy: U.S. participation in the nuclear arms race is another factor contributing to anti-Americanism abroad. How do you feel about it?

[A] Buchwald: It must be ended before it's too late. Our bombs are already capable of annihilating five times the population of the world. The problem now is that our targets are too small. To eliminate all this waste in overkill, I advocate the enlargement of existing targets to fit the existing bombs. We've got to enlarge our cities so that the radius of the most powerful H-bomb will fall within them. That way we wouldn't have all this waste of fallout and heat--and worst of all, of defense expenditures.

[Q] Playboy: Wouldn't we be laying ourselves open to Russian attack?

[A] Buchwald: On the contrary. The Russians would have no alternative but to follow suit. They couldn't afford to let our targets get bigger than theirs. It would be too much of a blow to their prestige.

[Q] Playboy: On the domestic scene, civil rights is perhaps the most critical issue confronting the nation. At this point, where do you feel the Negro stands in his struggle for equality?

[A] Buchwald: Now that the Civil Rights Bill has been passed, nobody has anything to complain about anymore. Look how things have changed in Harlem since the passage of that bill. It's an entirely different place. You wouldn't recognize it. No riots. No demonstrations. No slums. No unemployment. No police.

[Q] Playboy: Have you been personally involved in the civil rights movement here at all?

[A] Buchwald: Well, I've tried to help desegregate restaurants. I think one of the reasons Negroes haven't eaten in many of the big restaurants in the South is that the food has been so bad. If they improved the food, Negroes would want to eat there without a fight. Because of desegregation, many Southern restaurants are upgrading the quality of their food. I've been working along those lines. I might mention in passing, although it's not generally known, that I had a lot to do behind the scenes with pushing the Civil Rights Bill through Congress.

[Q] Playboy: We didn't know you swung so much weight on Capitol Hill--figuratively speaking, of course.

[A] Buchwald: Well, I don't like to toot my own horn, but I think I've got Senator Dirksen and Congressman Adam Clayton Powell in my pocket. Don't print that.

[Q] Playboy: We won't--in return for a truthful answer to the next question.

[A] Buchwald: Are you threatening me with blackmail?

[Q] Playboy: No comment. We'll ask you anyway: Do you have any personal political ambitions?

[A] Buchwald: No. If I did, I'd have satirists making fun of me, instead of the other way around. I couldn't stand that. No, I'd like to continue to be the force behind the Government. My big ambition is to grab all the power I can without getting caught at it. I wouldn't even mind getting my hands on a couple of those bombs. But this is what we're all striving for, isn't it?

[Q] Playboy: Let's turn, naturally enough, to the "easy morals" issue brought up by Goldwater during last year's campaign. In the light of the Bobby Baker hearings, do you think it's true that sex makes strange bedfellows in Washington?

[A] Buchwald: To tell you the truth, I've never seen any sex in Washington. I've heard about it--there've been a lot of rumblings--but I've never actually come across it. Newspapermen are very honorable and strait-laced and wouldn't fool around, of course. And, naturally, no Senator or Congressman would have anything to do with sex, because that would endanger the national security. There is the Supreme Court, though. Now I don't know about them. They might be fooling around.

[Q] Playboy: You say your record is clean. Didn't you ever get in on any of the action at Bobby Baker's notorious Quorum Club?

[A] Buchwald: No. When I read about it, I got very excited and rushed up there, but it was too late. I don't know where they went, but they moved. You're not the first to ask me about sex here. Whenever I travel outside of Washington, people ask me for the inside stuff on Bobby Baker. At first I was very modest and said I didn't know anything. They got very annoyed and stopped inviting me out to have dinner. So then I started reading Time and Newsweek and Jack and Jill, and pretty soon I began quoting them--in confidence, of course. People were impressed. "Gee," they said, "this guy really knows what's going on." So I try to keep up now with all the news so that I can speak with authority.

[Q] Playboy: While we're talking about scandals: You've overheard the cloakroom talk about President Harding's love letters. Do you think it was in the public interest to have them published?

[A] Buchwald: I was very disappointed when those letters were published, because President Harding was my hero. A lot of guys are Lincoln men and others are Jefferson men, but I've always been a big Harding man. He was the President who did the most for our country.

[Q] Playboy: What is it that you admired about him?

[A] Buchwald: Well, I admired his stick. He always said we should talk softly and carry a big stick. That's what I admired most. But I also admired his willingness to free the slaves. And he kept us out of World War Two. The anti-Harding forces in this country just got worried that he would go down in history as one of our great Presidents, so they decided to smear him. I was sick and disgusted when I read those letters. I'm not even sure he wrote them. I just can't believe a guy of Harding's reputation would have had a mistress, and even if he did, would have written those dirty awful things. I was shattered, and so was my father.

[Q] Playboy: We're surprised to hear your prudish stand on this question. In some of your written work you seem to favor free and open discussion of sex problems. If anything, you've been a crusader for sex reform in America.

[A] Buchwald: You're right. I'm a do-gooder as far as sex is concerned. You're probably referring to my campaign to help alleviate the plight of the unwed father. There were a lot of people worrying about unwed mothers, but no one wanted to help unwed fathers. I advocated that two months before the baby was born, the unwed father should be sent to some resort where he wouldn't be known and he could vacation there and forget all the nastiness back home. Then, after the baby was born, he could come back and we'd give him some money to get started again. A lot of people got sore as hell at me for that. "Don't you have any daughters of your own?" they wanted to know. Well, I do. I happen to have two daughters. But I also have a son, and he could be an unwed father someday.

[Q] Playboy: What do you think is responsible for the sexual revolution that's taking place in America today?

[A] Buchwald: You want me to say Hugh Hefner, don't you? But I've got to be honest. I think it was the release of the Harding love letters. If those letters hadn't been published, I don't think kids would be doing what they're doing today. Another reason for this sexual revolution is that everyone is against violence in the streets. If the authorities came out in favor of violence in the streets, the kids wouldn't dare go out in cars and park in those little lanes and things.

[Q] Playboy: Psychologists report that even in the best families young people are turning to crime, as well as to sex, for kicks. Why?

[A] Buchwald: Because there's too much togetherness. We have too much of parents and kids doing things together. That enables the kids to get to know what their parents are really like; and that just makes the kids go into crime faster. They figure, "Why should I be different?" When I was a kid, fortunately, I never saw my father. Without an example to live down to, I just ran around the streets kicking cans, and consequently I missed out on a life of crime.

[Q] Playboy: As a father, how are you going to cope with your own kids when they become teenagers?

[A] Buchwald: I've talked them out of becoming teenagers. They've already given me their word. Of course, some money changed hands, but at least that solved the problem.

[Q] Playboy: There has been a proposal that we lower the voting age to 18. Do you think this will help make teenagers more responsible citizens?

[A] Buchwald: No. When the teenagers decide to take over the country, they're going to take it over whether they have the vote or not. At the moment, they feel they don't want the responsibility.

[Q] Playboy: Do you expect a coup soon?

[A] Buchwald: Not immediately. But the two minority pressure groups we'll have to be watching are the teenagers and the old folks. If they ever combine forces, we'll really be in trouble. Right now, fortunately, they don't agree on much.

[Q] Playboy: One thing many teenagers and old folks seem to agree on is their opposition to the Supreme Court decision banning prayer in public schools. Where do you stand on this issue?

[A] Buchwald: I think there should be a compromise on this prayer issue. Kids should be allowed to pray in school, but only before they have a test, or when they're late for school, or when they haven't done their homework.

[Q] Playboy: Do you send your own kids to a public school?

[A] Buchwald: I feel that every American parent should be proud to send his kids to a public school--if he doesn't have any money. We ran out of money three months ago, so our kids go to a public school.

[Q] Playboy: Haven't you been able to save any money from the shady deals you're said to have made since coming to Washington?

[A] Buchwald: I'd like to take this opportunity to quash that ugly and unfounded smear once and for all. I've known since the day I arrived that this town is riddled with that kind of corruption; I've heard all the stories about kickbacks from wheeler-dealers and under-the-counter payoffs from free-spending lobbyists. But I've made no deals nor have I accepted a penny of dirty money. That was one of the main attractions that brought me to Washington, but so far I haven't had any luck.

[Q] Playboy: The American public feels it has the right to know the net worth of everyone who works in Washington. So what's yours? Remember, you're under oath.

[A] Buchwald: I don't think it's fair to ask that question. What you really want to know is my net debt. I am in debt to the tune of $135,000. That makes me a pretty substantial citizen, I think, even in Washington.

[Q] Playboy: Fair. But how much have you got salted away in your wife's name?

[A] Buchwald: If you must know, my wife's in debt even more than I am, but only because she has more time to work at it. I don't have too much time to get into debt because I'm away at the office all day.

[Q] Playboy: When you first arrived in Washington, you announced you would be going back to Europe in two years. Your time is up, yet you're still here, and there's a grim rumor going around Washington that you intend to stay on indefinitely. Why have you gone back on your word?

[A] Buchwald: I'm not allowed to leave. The bank has my passport. I've fallen so much in debt the last two years, I couldn't go back even if I wanted to. It should be like Russia here: They should keep your wife and kids, but they should let you go abroad.

[Q] Playboy: Have the banks really given you trouble?

[A] Buchwald: Only when I tried to repay a loan that wasn't due yet. They got very sore at me because you're not supposed to repay a loan, only borrow more. They've got a better system in France, where the banks never lend you money. Nobody likes to keep money in French banks. You go to a mattress company and they lend you money out of a mattress. People leave their mattresses with mattress companies and that's how they get interest on their savings.

[Q] Playboy: You keep comparing America unfavorably with other countries. Isn't the U.S.A. good enough for you?

[A] Buchwald: If it's good enough for Billie Sol Estes, it's good enough for me. The only reason I prefer Europe is that over there, if you get clipped, or people are nasty to you, you can always blame some foreigner. But when you get clipped or people are nasty to you here, there's no one to blame but a fellow American--and I love my country too much to stoop to that. And then there's the problem of keeping up with the Joneses here in America. There was nobody named Jones next door when I lived in Paris. But now we live next door to a family named Du Pont.

[Q] Playboy: Are you implying that Americans are more materialistic than Europeans?

[A] Buchwald: Not all of them. I've discovered three groups of Americans who aren't interested in money at all, and because of that they're the ones who really control the country. I mean the plumbers, tree surgeons and electricians. You can offer them any kind of money and they still won't show up. I have tried to bribe these people to fix something, and they still wouldn't fix it. They just feel they're professionals, and they don't have to come if they don't want to. I respect that.

[Q] Playboy: We have the feeling--not for the first time--that you're being insincere. Isn't anything sacred to you?

[A] Buchwald: Only sex. That's the only thing people seem to hold dear here in America. So I never try to make fun of sex. I did a column once about sex that made people angry. It was about sex and the college boy. I took a survey to find out if college boys believe in premarital relations, and I found out they don't. I asked my six-year-old son how he felt about it--he's planning to go to college someday--and he told me he didn't believe in it. I extrapolated my results from this sampling. I should add that I don't happen to share his narrow-minded views. My own philosophy is the same as Hugh Hefner's. Whatever he says in his Philosophy is my philosophy. I'm a hip urban male, and he's about my age. So how come I don't make out like he does?

[Q] Playboy: Maybe it's those cigars you smoke.

[A] Buchwald: I don't think so. But until the Surgeon General's report came out, I might have been inclined to agree. Until then, I was treated like a leper. I was shunned by hostesses, pushed around by airline stewardesses, held in contempt by dogs and children, persecuted in my own home. It was a lonely life; like all cigar smokers, I had to choose between cigars and girlfriends. I chose cigars--they're cheaper, they last longer, and you can keep them fresh in a humidor. And then it happened: The Surgeon General's report came out, and all of a sudden I was in and all those suave cigarette smokers with tattoos on their hands were out. Overnight I became a social lion. Hostesses were introducing me by saying, "I'd like you to meet Mr. Buchwald. He smoked cigars before the Surgeon General's report came out." And ladies were asking me to offer them cigarillos.

[Q] Playboy: And then?

[A] Buchwald: Then they would ask me for a light and walk away. Do you think I should write a letter to The Playboy Advisor?

[Q] Playboy: Try Dear Abby. We'd rather not get any further into your personal life, if you don't mind. But while we're on the subject of the Surgeon General's report, do you really think there's a link between cigarette smoking and cancer?

[A] Buchwald: Probably so, but I think there's a much greater relationship between smoking and mental illness. If people can't smoke, they go crazy. I'm less concerned about people getting cancer than going nuts.

[Q] Playboy: Speaking of going nuts, how did you begin as a humorist?

[A] Buchwald: I think it began when I was born. When the doctor slapped me on my bottom, someone said I laughed instead of cried. The reason I laughed was if I hadn't, I would have cried. Ever since that thrashing, however, I've had this hostility boiling inside me. When I was a kid, we couldn't get switchblades so we told jokes instead. My first newspaper work was editing the family gossip when I was 11 years old. I was a foster child and I figured there weren't many foster children in the newspaper business, so I felt I was getting in on the ground floor.

[Q] Playboy: When people asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up, what did you say?

[A] Buchwald: I said I wanted to be a syndicated columnist for the Herald Tribune in Paris and Washington.

[Q] Playboy: How did you finally get the job?

[A] Buchwald: I went to the Herald Tribune one day and said, "When I was a kid I always dreamed that one day I would be a syndicated columnist for the Herald Tribune in Paris and Washington." The man who interviewed me said, "So be it."

[Q] Playboy: Now that you've made it, how does it feel to be famous?

[A] Buchwald: I like it. I think everybody should be famous. You get to see doctors you wouldn't ordinarily see. You get hotel rooms when there aren't supposed to be any left. Restaurant owners send over bottles of wine, and girls are constantly seeking you out. Of course, this never happens to me, but Bobby Baker says it happens to him all the time.

[Q] Playboy: Like Baker, do you feel you've left your mark on Washington?

[A] Buchwald: You know, Pennsylvania Avenue was a dirt road when I arrived, and now it's a paved street. I like to think I had something to do with that, which is monument enough for me.

[Q] Playboy: Are you sure?

[A] Buchwald: Well, I wouldn't mind getting the Nobel Prize in literature. That's what I'm working for at the moment.

[Q] Playboy: When you've won it, what then?

[A] Buchwald: Well, I hear they've discovered gold in California. I might go out there. But I have no real plans. By the way, everything I've said to you is strictly off the record.

[Q] Playboy: Many thanks, Mr. Sahl--and rest assured we won't betray your confidence.