Playboy Interview: Mort Sahl

Once described as a "nice, fresh breath of carbon monoxide," Mort Sahl continues to pollute the complacency of the political establishment with the same kind of satirical laughing gas that has won him both widespread popularity and bitter condemnation. Adlai Stevenson was his friend, Dwight Eisenhower claimed he'd never heard of him. and President Kennedy knew him well but never accepted him within White House inner circles. Despite the controversy Sahl has always managed to create, he has never been willing to sweeten the acerbic tone of his humor.

That tone was set in 1953. when he landed a $75-a-week engagement at San Francisco's hungry i after auditioning for the club's owner. Enrico Banducci, whom he failed to impress until he tackled the most intimidating politician of the century. "Have you seen the Joe McCarthy jacket?" he asked. "It's like an Eisenhower jacket, only it's got an extra flap that fits over the mouth." Banducci roared with laughter. "Joe McCarthy doesn't question what you say," Sahl continued, "so much as he questions your right to say it." His one-week engagement extended, into eight months of standing room only, and Mort eventually became a nearly permanent fixture at the club.

Attacking the Wisconsin Senator during the height of his widespread investigations was characteristic of the almost compulsive impertinence Sahl had already established as a life style for himself. His mother claims that he began to talk at seven months, that by the age of two and a half he would stand behind the radio and imitate the news broadcasts and that by the age of ten "he spoke like a man of thirty." Though he established his medium as a child, it wasn't until after his teens that he settled on the irreverent message that was to become his trademark.

Incongruously enough, Sahl was drawn to the R. O. T. C. as a teenager in Los Angeles, wore the uniform to school every day and won the American Legion's Americanism award. He even enlisted in the Army Air Force as a cadet: but after two weeks of active duty, he was sent home when his mother revealed that he was only 15. Later. Mort's father, a Government clerk and. talented amateur writer, secured an appointment to West Point for his son. but Mort enlisted in the Air Force before he had a chance to take the Military Academy examinations. By the time he was shipped to Elmendorf Field in Alaska, Private Sahl had changed from youthful officer material to a thorn in the side of the Air Force. Rebelling against the military mentality, he refused to follow uniform regulations and began editing a newspaper for the post titled Poop from the Group, in which he attacked the military power structure. This exercise in self-expression cost him 83 consecutive days on KP, and during 31 months in the Service, he never rose above the rank of private, first class.

Even after his discharge, his role as satirist was not yet defined, and, attending the University of Southern California under the GI Bill, he majored in the unlikely fields of city management and traffic engineering. The turning point came in 1950, soon after his graduation, when he drifted north to the San Francisco area, intending only to visit with Sue Babior, a Berkeley graduate whom he eventually married in 1955 (and divorced in 1957)---but he stayed on to become part of the intellectual ferment that, was happening there.

During his three years in Berkeley, Mort eked out an existence of sorts, sleeping on someone's window seat or in his own car, eating restaurant leftovers supplied by a friend and writing for avant-garde publications. He earned approximately $120 during this period; but as he says, "Things were simple then. All we had to worry about was the destiny of man." He had already tried to make it as a comic in Los Angeles, but his 30 night-club tryouts and various attempts to produce his own plays in an old rented theater proved fruitless. It was at Sue's suggestion that he auditioned at the hungry i---which, aside from providing him with his first regular income, marked the beginning of his on-again, off-again career.

Though his income climbed to $7500 a week by the late Fifties, his new-found wealth and success wrought no perceptible change in either his material or his style. From the Crescendo in Los Angeles to the Copacabana in New York, he would appear in a sweater, slacks and open shirt, getting in his licks on any issue, situation or personality that had happened to appear in the news. "Eisenhower's for integration, but gradually," he would tell his audience. "Stevenson's for integration, but moderately. It should be possible to compromise between those extremes" The House Un-American Activities Committee was a favorite target of Sahl's. "Every time the Russians throw an American in jail, HUAC restores the balance of power by throwing an American in jail, too."

By 1960, he was the first comedian to do record albums and the first to do college concerts. He made two appearances in Hollywood films, did a one-man Broadway show called "The Next President" and cohosted an Academy Awards Show. His prominence was confirmed at that point by a Time-magazine cover story, which likened him to Will Rogers, the only other American political satirist of comparable influence. "Whereas Rogers assumed the role of a yokel who questioned the common sense of the educated men managing the Government, Sahl," explained a profile in The New Yorker, "is an intellectual who is scornful of the Government because he feels that it is managed by yokels whose sense is all too common."

Needling the Republican Administration was a popular pastime among liberals during the Eisenhower years and, accordingly, Mort was idolized by much of the entertainment world as well as by the higher echelons of the Democratic Party. But when the Government changed hands in 1960, Sahl found the liberals---personified by the sophisticated Kennedys---less indulgent of his satirical sport when it was at their expense. During the campaign in 1960, he wrote political jokes for John Kennedy; but when Kennedy received, the nomination, Mort felt that J. F. K., too, was now fair game for satire. The night of Kennedy's acceptance speech at the Los Angeles Coliseum, Sahl was asked to entertain the 100,000 conventioneers. He told the gathering that Nixon had sent a telegram congratulating Joseph Kennedy on his son's victory: "You Haven't Lost A Son, You've Gained A Country." The Democrats were unamused---and told him so. His response, predictably, was a fusillade of even sharper barbs. They insisted that he stop telling Kennedy jokes. His reply: "Nixon's trying to sell the country, Kennedy's trying to buy it." Ed Sullivan dropped him from his show when Mort refused to confine his material to conservative politicians and insisted on taking off on the liberals as well. After Kennedy was elected, even his agent told him, "I don't like what you're saying about our President." According to mutual friends, the word then went out from Hyannis Port that "Sahl isn't one of us." His yearly income soon fell from $400,000 to $19,000 and he began to proclaim that he was being black-listed.

In the years that followed, Sahl was forced to continue his career without the valuable national exposure he formerly enjoyed. He did a very successful local TV show in the Los Angeles area running for 58 weeks, a highly rated nighttime radio program for 26 weeks, acted in a few more movies, and toured colleges and clubs primarily on the West Coast until 1967, when he once again jumped into the center of controversy. Intrigued by the inconsistencies of the Warren Report, he joined Jim Garrison, New Orleans district attorney, in his investigation of President Kennedy's assassination. "I know who killed Kennedy," he told a press conference. "All I can tell you is that a powerful domestic force was responsible and that when Garrison tells his story, the implications will shake the country to its foundations. America will be forced to clean house."

But when Sahl and Garrison brought their story to the people via the news media, they encountered stiff resistance and once again Sahl found himself out on a limb, with the political establishment hacking away at the roots. Sahl claimed to be puzzled by the ambivalent reaction of the public. "Fifty-eight percent don't accept the Warren Commission Report, but 57 percent don't want the case reopened. What a weird time to be alive."

With the liberals now out of power, however, Sahl, at 41, once again has a constituency that promises to enjoy his satirical digs at the incumbent Government. Even before President Nixon stepped into office, Sahl had begun working regularly once more in night clubs, on TV and on college campuses. It was during one of his engagements---a highly successful gig at Mister Kelly's, a well-known Chicago bistro---that Playboy Senior Editor Nat Lehrman interviewed him last November. The taping sessions were accomplished at Hugh Hefner's Near North Side Mansion, where Mort usually stays when he's in town, and, Lehrman reports, they were lengthy (covering the better part of three days) and hilarious: "Mort is always 'on.' While he'll sustain a serious conversation long enough to make a point, he can't refrain from interrupting his own substantive remarks with one-liners or long, digressive bits from his night-club routine. It keeps the listener pleasantly off balance with a fascinating and unpredictable blend of wit and wisdom---as in his act." Since the subject, in the wake of the election, was much on his mind---and tongue---we began the interview with a question about a favorite old target: the new President.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think Nixon will unite the country?

[A] Sahl: Yes, I think he will, because he's the one man who can make the liberals sit down with the fascists and see things the fascists' way. Of course, the liberals have already had a lot of practice at that. But Nixon's in a good position, because, as one of his aides said, he has no political pay-offs to make---such as to labor, youth, the poor or the Negroes.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think Nixon will find his slim margin of victory a handicap?

[A] Sahl: When President Kennedy won in 1960, his margin was something like one tenth of one percent. I commented then, "What a mandate. When he walks down the street and sees a couple walking toward him, he'll know that one of them is against him." But to answer your question, I think the lack of mandate would be a handicap only for a man who wanted to do something. Nixon won't have that problem.

[Q] Playboy: What do you think the quality of life will be like under Nixon?

[A] Sahl: He has said he's not what we would call a swinger, but he knows how to have a good time; in other words, he can play the piano while the family sings Christmas carols. I don't imagine there will be too many schools built during his Administration---probably not as many as will be burned down. It's incredible. He was rejected by the American people twice, and the third time we get possession. There's something about those rules that makes me wonder. But as for the quality of life, I would settle for a quantitative assessment rather than a qualitative one.

[Q] Playboy: All right. Quantitatively, what do you expect?

[A] Sahl: Not much. He didn't even promise anything during the campaign. It was part of his sense of honor not to speak out on the issues while we were having an election in this country. I appreciate that. During the campaign, he stood in the middle of a studio to make his television pitch. As his producer pointed out, this allowed him to turn in any direction---which happens to be Nixon's basic political philosophy.

[Q] Playboy: Even if he doesn't do much, a lot of people think Nixon will slow down the trend toward Big Government. Do you agree?

[A] Sahl: No, because all the people who protested about Big Government have already joined the Government. I don't see any rich men or old-fashioned fascists fighting the Government. They try to become the Government and, in many cases, they're successful. I'd like to say to all of those people out there who like Governor Wallace and who are worried about the strong central authority of socialism that this is exactly what the right wing offers. But getting back to your question, the Government will be huge, except when you need some help, at which point they'll talk about local authority.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think Nixon will be able to increase his popularity by playing consensus politics?

[A] Sahl: If he thinks so, he's in for a shock. In four years, people will feel the same way about him as they do now about that great master of the consensus, Lyndon Johnson. Maybe they'll feel that way in less time---in about a month. L. B. J.'s popularity was so low just before he stepped down that people acted the way they had in Nazi Germany. Johnson got 43,000,000 votes, yet everyone says, "Not me," or else, "I was only following orders." Amazing. Nixon isn't even in office yet, and already people are thinking nostalgically of the freedom of speech they enjoyed under Johnson. You know, there was quite a bit of dissent the past few years, and I would say that we can directly relate that to the fact that he will no longer be President---and that we haven't invaded China.

[Q] Playboy: What do you think would have been the fate of dissent---your own in particular---if Wallace had won?

[A] Sahl: My role would have been the same. I'd prevail upon the President's good humor and hope he would not throw me under a good jail somewhere, as he puts it; and I'd remind him before he ordered the FBI to arrest me that he believes in local law enforcement. But back to Nixon. I attended the Republican Convention this year and frequently saw him in the lobby of his hotel. He didn't say much; he'd just kind of smile a lot, at that 68-degree temperature, hermetically sealed in this suit that looks like it's wearing him. And that tan. You know he has a tan all the time, because he had a lot of bad experiences in 1960 with his beard, which Webster tells us is a secondary sign of virility. A primary sign would be bombing China. I knew what the flavor of the convention would be when I saw a sign in the Fontainebleau Hotel that read: The Republican Platform Committee will meet in Le Ronde Room on the Beach Front at two P.M. for Cocktails to Discuss Poverty. Of course, Nixon's running mate, Spiro Agnew, has a lot of the principles of our late President. John Kennedy's last published work was called A Nation of Immigrants, and in the same spirit, Agnew has pointed out that it's a land of opportunity for anyone, whether he's a Mick, a Polack or a Jap. So, anyway, Nixon won the nomination and his acceptance speech went, "I see a boy who listens to the train whistles and he yearns to travel." You know, in this day and age, when we're worried about enlarging our airports, Nixon is still talking about taking the train, which I thought was significant. And he said this boy has a Quaker mother. A lot of people were astounded to find out that Nixon is a Quaker---one of the most violent I've ever encountered---but a Quaker, nevertheless. Did you know, by the way, that Humphrey commended Nixon for not baiting Kennedy in 1960 about being a Catholic? The way Humphrey phrased it was that Kennedy was a Catholic, which was a handicap, but Nixon didn't suffer from the handicap of believing in anything.

[Q] Playboy: Did you also attend the Democratic Convention?

[A] Sahl: Yes, and it seemed a pity that Humphrey couldn't attend it, too; he didn't have a gas mask to get from the Hilton Hotel to the Amphitheater. George Meany was running around the hall, yelling that people shouldn't demonstrate, apparently having forgotten that many people in the labor movement once demonstrated to bring Meany to his lofty position. I was interviewed on TV and was asked, "What do you think of the convention?" I said. "I think it's rigged." So they took me off the air. Then they put me back on the air. "So what do you think?" they asked me. I said, "I think the convention is preordained." So they took me off the air again. Finally I went back on the air and said, "I think this convention is a travesty." So a guy ran in and said. "I have to interrupt you." I said, "I'm sure you do, if you want to keep your job here." He said, "No, it's not censorship. it's news. We have a bulletin that a horse at Aqueduct Park has been doped." When we went back on the air, Humphrey had been nominated by then, and I suggested that in order to determine the legitimacy of his victory, he ought to be given a saliva test. Later, Humphrey was in Los Angeles and he became hoarse, because, as you know, he'd been talking since 1948. He got up in the balcony and said to the crowd. "I won't be able to address you, because"---he wouldn't say he had a strep throat, since he's not that hip---he said, "I've got the grippe." And one of the kids yelled up, "Yeah, the grip of Lyndon B. Johnson." One kid had a sign that read: Hubert Humphrey is Straight from his Original Commitment as a Founder of the A. D. A., and in the Process of becoming the Administration's Hollow Apologist for the Illegal Involvement in Vietnam, He has become a Self-Seeking Opportunist. It was a windy day and the kid had a lot of trouble controlling the sign.

Wallace, as you know, didn't have a convention. It was Immaculate Conception. He was the target of such signs as, Wallace is Rosemary's Baby and if you liked Hitler, you'll love Wallace. You know, I once served under his running mate, General Dismay. The Strategic Air Command is a really good, paranoiac outfit. You had to sleep in your plane with a German shepherd guarding you. You could take off your boots if you tied them with a rope around your waist. We stayed in the air for nine years, in an effort to terrify the Russians. We succeeded in terrifying not only them but a great many civilian airline pilots, too. I made three flights in an effort to recall other planes that were headed for the Soviet Union with nuclear devices. We'd pull up alongside them and say over the intercom, "Have you thought this over?" Then they'd re-evaluate.

[Q] Playboy: Returning to the candidates Were you able to choose among them when you finally entered the voting booth?

[A] Sahl: Yeah. I think there was a clear choice. I won't tell you which it was, but just let your readers know I'm not one of those guys who run out and vote for Dick Gregory. I'd like to add that I had to give serious thought to casting my vote for Nixon when President Eisenhower looked out of the window of the hospital---they were holding him by the ankles---and said, "If you want to make it a happy birthday for me, vote for Dick." It occurred to me that I wanted to get Ike something a bit smaller for his birthday.

[Q] Playboy: So far, you've had very little good to say about anybody. Do you think there are any promising politicians in the country today?

[A] Sahl: Well, there's Senator Fulbright, Senator McGovern, Senator McCarthy, Mayor Lindsay, Senator Percy, Senator Hatfield. I think, if nothing else, some of these men have a spirit of adventure. Nixon, of course, would never understand that. George Washington never took a poll before he went to Valley Forge.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think there would be enough venturesome people to fill your Cabinet if you were President?

[A] Sahl: Just let me say this: The party leaders have not called upon me---and I did not have a boyhood dream of being President. I'm not really interested in politics, as a matter of fact. I never was. My limited involvement is my pugnacious answer to people telling me not to discuss politics. I'm much more interested in sex, if the truth be known.

But who would I put in the Cabinet? We have an abundance of good men. My Secretary of Defense would be Howard Hughes. That would give him a chance to purchase airplanes from his own company, or he could be head of the Federal Aviation Agency. Jim Garrison would be the Attorney General and---let's see---the Secretary of Labor would be George Wallace, based on the devotion union members have for him. Senator Fulbright would be Secretary of State and---uh---the Defense Department would have to change its name.

[Q] Playboy: To what?

[A] Sahl: They would either have to cut their budget to a minimum figure or they'd have to be called the Department of Aggression. I will not have any more of these euphemisms. Let's see, I'd keep Hoover in the FBI. As you know, he was appointed in 1924 by a farsighted President, and ever since then, crime has risen in direct proportion to the budget of the FBI, year after year. Hoover's been in office 45 years and Gene Mc-Carthy feared that Hoover had come to look upon the President as a transient. My fear, however, is that it will be difficult to attract men of excellence into the Government if you threaten them with job insecurity every 45 years. Since we're so big on preventing crime in the streets this year, presumably the FBI will stop hunting Communists under every bed. Yeah, let the FBI start doing important things, like enforcing the Mann Act---you know, get into some areas where they're really efficient.

Let's see. I have to get some people I can really trust. I trusted the people I've named, but now that I've put them in the Government, I'm beginning to distrust them.

[Q] Playboy: Whom do you have in mind for Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare?

[A] Sahl: I haven't decided yet, but we'll put Timothy Leary in charge of the Food and Drug Administration. Lewis Hershey should be replaced with Mario Savio. Hefner could be Secretary of the Interior, and when he published his Playboy Philosophy in book form, it would be his decision whether to deplete the forests to get ready for the first printing.

[Q] Playboy: Whom would you appoint to the Supreme Court?

[A] Sahl: Justice Douglas, eight more times. He's the only real progressive on the Court, and I'm proud to be acquainted with him.

[Q] Playboy: How well do you know him?

[A] Sahl: Just to double date. Thanks for the straight line. But liberals. Ha. You know, when the Court decided to integrate the schools, the liberals thought the Court was a good idea. On the other hand, they didn't like it when Justice Black said that Negroes have no right to sit in the aisles of a library and disrupt it. Earl Warren once said that if he caught Ralph Ginzburg, the publisher of Eros, giving that magazine to his daughter, he'd strangle the publisher with his bare hands. So here's the vision I had: Warren throttling Ginzburg and Ginzburg muttering through a constricted windpipe, "I always thought you were a liberal." When Warren is arrested, I wonder if they will inform him of his rights. And what happens to Virginia Warren? Will it be traumatic for her? She probably wouldn't even notice her father strangling someone, because she'd be too busy reading Eros. Another thing: They banned prayer in schools---right? But they allow you to swear on the stage. So what it boils down to is, you're allowed to say, "Gee, America is in a hell of a mess," but you're not allowed to say, "I hope to God we get out of it."

[Q] Playboy: What's your opinion of the recent flap over the Fortas nomination?

[A] Sahl: Fortas was rejected for all the wrong reasons; mainly, Strom Thurmond. Did you know Fortas' law firm helped Owen Lattimore against Joe McCarthy? But then they turned down the case of the Reverend William Sloane Coffin. "Well," you say, "I thought Fortas was a liberal." That's right. He was. A lot of people are asking if Fortas was discriminated against because he's Jewish. Knowing him personally, I can tell you that it is possible to dislike him for himself, without getting into the issue of anti-Semitism.

[Q] Playboy: Back to the Cabinet. Would you appoint Frank Sinatra to any position?

[A] Sahl: Vice-President, if he would step down. But he wouldn't.

[Q] Playboy: Governor Reagan?

[A] Sahl: Well, I've lost some of the great faith I once had in him. One of the reasons is that he said he would lower California's taxes, but his budget this year is larger than Roosevelt's was for America in 1940. During the gubernatorial campaign, Governor Brown said, "Do you want an actor for governor?" and Reagan went on the air and said, "The campaign has hit a new low in mudslinging," because, of all the charges that had been thrown at him, the one that he was an actor had never been made in the previous 20 years. I tell my audiences about hearing the governor at a Hollywood civil rights rally, where he said, "I don't agree with Mayor Daley of Chicago about shooting a looter on sight: That's an invitation to barbarism." The audience cheered. "But," he said, "I don't agree with Mayor Lindsay of New York, either, about not shooting anybody, regardless of the provocation: That's an invitation to anarchy." The audience looked confused. Reagan said, "I offer a compromise between these extremes. Those of you who have a map handy will see what I mean---the solution is to shoot people in Cincinnati." No. But he said, "I think that when Robert Kennedy was killed, the white middle class mourned well. They turned on television and let Walter Cronkite lead the crying. But when Martin Luther King was killed, the Negroes went bad. They ran into the streets and they manifested their grief by kicking in the windows of discount stores and stealing television sets." Then he said, "I don't condemn this action and I don't condone it, but I think it's wrong when they go back and demand service."

[Q] Playboy: Seriously, do you take the popularity of archconservatives such as Reagan and Wallace, combined with other symptoms, as harbingers of fascism in America?

[A] Sahl: I don't think so. I would say that, as the fascists in this country start flexing their muscles, they're going to learn that they can't sell fascism here: There are several signs that they can't. Young people, who will soon be in the majority, refuse to buy it. It won't grow in the ground here. It's been a very unsuccessful transplant from Germany. The fascists in Government have done everything they could. They've bombed illegally, they've spied illegally, they've shot people in the streets, they've engineered coups; but the American people have become suspicious and cynical and disbelieving in their Government. I would say that their day is almost over.

[Q] Playboy: Whose? The fascists' or the good guys'?

[A] Sahl: The fascists'. But the death rattle might be convulsive and a lot of people might be hurt before the conflict is resolved.

[Q] Playboy: Would you call Wallace a fascist?

[A] Sahl: Sometimes he sounded like one, but he seemed to become more moderate as he got closer to the seat of power.

[Q] Playboy: Many people think that that would have happened with Goldwater if he'd been elected. Do you agree?

[A] Sahl: Well, I don't see how he could have been worse than Johnson. There would have been several moderating factors, and one is that every time he said to the Congress, "Give me a mandate to bomb Vietnam," the Democrats would have gotten up and opposed him. Secondly, it would have given the Democrats something to do besides denying they're Communists; and thirdly, as a corollary, Goldwater wouldn't have had to bomb China to prove he's not a Communist. We would have accepted him at his word.

You know, in spite of the swing to the right in this country, things aren't that bright for some of our conservative luminaries. William Buckley, for example, a notable celebrity in the conservative industry, is finished. He reminds me of all those people Stevenson said were being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 20th Century. And, by the way, that's a big thing with liberals. They like Buckley. "That guy's brilliant," they say---even if he does try to make fascism a workable proposition. I find that he is universally on the wrong side of every issue in human progress, and it's a hobby with him. So who needs it? Golf is better.

To get back to Goldwater, he might have been all right, but I don't think everybody becomes a statesman who arrives in the White House; and I think that history bears me out. You know, they say anybody can become President in America. Sometimes I wish the people wouldn't take it quite that literally.

But the difference among the candidates is becoming about as small as the difference between the major parties---which is practically nonexistent. The only disparity I can see is that Republicans are specialists in certain areas. You'll notice that every Democratic President picks Republicans to be Secretary of Defense and Secretary of the Treasury. When it comes to signing a check, the Democrats won't trust a member of their own party. But the so-called differences between the parties is part of that whole wish fulfillment of the liberals---hoping that everything's going to be fine. They've turned their backs for 25 years and have stood in the middle of the road, saying, "We believe in coexistence, but we're just as anti-Communist as the next guy," and they've gone along with the Marshall Plan as cheerfully as they have with the bombs and SEATO and NATO.

[Q] Playboy: You used to be the darling of the liberals. Why do you hit them so hard now?

[A] Sahl: My job is to push them to their upper limits, to restore the balance of power. On the other hand, when I'm in Indianapolis, where the people are so oriented to the right, I don't do any of my material about liberals. I gore their sacred cows. Those people are worried that Nixon is too liberal or that Jack Kennedy got into office because of Negroes, Jews and labor unions. Labor, of course, has achieved a considerable degree of affluence and now considers Wallace its number-one luxury. And the Negroes: Whatever opportunity they have had to emerge as human beings has largely been blown because they talk to liberals. It's liberal "advances" like I Spy---that's the big-breakthrough show that glorified the CIA---that prove a Negro can be as corrupt as we are. I never doubted that, given the opportunity, he could be. I didn't think it was a point that had to be proved by the liberal establishment. I hate to sound like Eric Hoffer, but there it is.

[Q] Playboy: What's your prognosis on the possibility of a black revolution?

[A] Sahl: I don't expect one. Most of the Negroes I've talked to want ten percent of the corruption. They want to be used-car dealers and Green Berets and FBI agents and savings-and-loan executives. I went to a seminar in Los Angeles about employing Negroes in television and a Negro actor got up and said, "It isn't enough to get the girl." He wants to know why, in the commercials, there isn't a Negro couple on the beach drinking Coca-Cola or sharing a pack of Salems. What he doesn't seem to realize is, there are white actors in those commercials who have nightmares, worrying that they're corrupting young audiences by endorsing some of these products. To get back to your question, when the Negroes say they'll bring this country to a standstill if we don't meet their terms, they show a total lack of understanding. If the United States is willing to bomb Vietnam, an entire country, because of arbitrary terms, is it going to give in to Negro demands? Are Negroes going to stop capitalism? I don't think capitalism is going to be stopped that easily, and the Negroes don't really want to stop it, anyway. They want to join it; they want a piece of the action. They'll be dealt in, the way the union was brought into the factory so that it could be controlled. So it'll be short of revolution. But you may have noticed all that talk about revolution has stopped.

[Q] Playboy: Eldridge Cleaver hasn't noticed it.

[A] Sahl: Cleaver has a disproportionately large voice only to people who are completely without hope. That's the point. When Robert Kennedy was walking around, the Negroes had a degree of hope and Cleaver could never have had an audience. It's only when a Nixon takes over that you get a Cleaver. Look at how the establishment incubates insurrection. Reagan made Cleaver a celebrity by telling him he couldn't lecture to a class of 22 people or something. It's always that way. Fidel Castro was invented by Batista. Mao Tse-tung would have wound up in the Chinese Kuomintang, except that Chiang Kai-shek said, "There will be no coalition government." So Mao wound up taking the whole thing.

[Q] Playboy: What do you think about the irony of liberals, who have been working since the Thirties for integration, now supporting the black-nationalist idea of racial separatism, in many cases with enthusiasm?

[A] Sahl: They're protecting the Negro's right to discriminate, which is one of his unalienable rights. The liberals are always in on those good causes. This separatism is nonsense. By the same token, I also thought that school busing was a joke. The liberals said to me, "But Goldwater's against it," meaning you must never be in bad company if you are a liberal. Another thing that bothers me is the current white use of the word "black." That's highly offensive, whether said by Wallace, a liberal or some Klansman.

[Q] Playboy: What is your definition of a liberal?

[A] Sahl: I think of liberalism in the European sense of social democracy. Don't ever forget that Germany debated in the Reichstag whether to enter World War One. The Communists didn't want to, because of their philosophical position, and the right wing thought the War might cost too much. But the Social Democrats sang Deutschland, Deutschland über alles---with tears running down their cheeks---and Germany went to war. The Social Democrats were also the German liberals who let Hitler come to power: again, with crocodile tears. And they were the ones who said that once a commitment was made---you know, like the destruction of Europe---it had to be honored. Doesn't that sound like those people who say, "I don't think we should be in Vietnam, but we're there now and, besides, how can we get out?" Put a reverse gear on the boats. That's how you can get out.

Social democrats can see the virtue of Republicans like Robert McNamara. "I don't like the war, I don't like the draft, I don't like being bankrupt; but our man Mac is a genius. He can add up a column of figures." Incredible! When Bobby Kennedy tried Jimmy Hoffa eight times for the same crime, social democrats said things like this: "Well, I think that Hoffa and Kennedy are evenly matched adversaries, because each has an unquenchable thirst for power." They talked about it like they were analyzing character traits in a psychology control group at a bad university in the Midwest. That's where they're at---standing in the middle. Social democrats know Nixon would bomb China; but the question is, would Humphrey? Yes, he would, saying all the time, "I tried with forbearance to keep the peace, but these people were bent on world domination." Social democracy. It's all the movies with Poitier; it's a Rod Serling story about the fascist general who flips out at the nuclear button. Another general comes in and says to him in the last act, "Thank God, most of the men from the Joint Chiefs aren't of your caliber. Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where only one guy can go crazy?" Or how about the sketch from The Fugitive in which a bracero is tried illegally for murder? If that were a right-wing show, he would be guilty of being a Mexican, not a murderer. If it were a left-wing show, he would be innocent of all crimes because he's a Mexican. But because it's a social-democrat show, the script goes like this: The D. A. says, "I'm gonna hang that guy!" And his wife says, "Oh, Dan, do you really want to be governor that bad?" You see, textbook psychology replaces thinking for social democrats.

The social democrats have destroyed the left and they've been the handmaiden of the right, because they say they're in the middle. But they're not in the middle. The fact is, when the pressure's applied, they're on the right.

[Q] Playboy: You said the social democrats have "destroyed" the left. Are you serious?

[A] Sahl: I'm serious for the present, but not totally pessimistic for the future; that is, not as long as we have youngsters. I kid the youngsters a lot, but I have a tremendous amount of faith in this generation.

You know, people approach me all the time because they think I'm a spokesman for the kids, and they say to me, "Well, do you like this anarchy, with the kids marching around, using the American flag for a G string and reading the Los Angeles Free Press?"---as if I had directed them to do it. The behavior of kids today is a result, a direct result, of social democracy. If the parents don't like the harvest, they shouldn't plant the seeds.

[Q] Playboy: Do you feel any kinship with the New Left?

[A] Sahl: Are you kidding? The New Left are left-wing social democrats. A lot of them are flower children, who are big on humanism, and Godlike things, and reverence for kids and animals in the park and flowers and all that stuff. But they don't want to get involved, and of course, that's the biggest sin. I'm afraid that a good deal of the New Left looks like ferment, but it's really a low boil. It's lukewarm, a variation on social democracy.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think flower power has staying power?

[A] Sahl: No, I think it's all instant faddism. You see, as soon as you start a movement in America, it's all the rage. Today's hippie is yesterday's ad-agency executive---only he couldn't hack it. A couple of days ago, I hadn't shaved and I was wearing tennis shoes and one of these guys said to me, "You finally look like a human being." Ridiculous.

[Q] Playboy: Have you ever grown a beard or a mustache?

[A] Sahl: I had a beard when I was in the Air Force up in the Aleutians. My face was cold. But I won't do whatever the group is doing. See, my basic position is that if there are only the two of us left in the world after a nuclear holocaust, and you take up my cause, I have to oppose you.

[Q] Playboy: Have you ever taken LSD?

[A] Sahl: No, never. Because life itself intoxicates me.

[Q] Playboy: When was the last time you were drunk?

[A] Sahl: Not recently.

[Q] Playboy: Presumably, you don't use marijuana, either.

[A] Sahl: Hell, no. But let me tell you about this girl I dated. We got into my car and she locked the doors, picked up these Zig Zag cigarette papers and a pouch and started to roll this tobacco. It had a strange aroma, but it wasn't incense. I said, "What're you doing?" "I'm just turning on." I said, "Well, you can't do that here. They seize your car in this state, for one thing, and then they bust you." She said, "You ever do this?" And I said, "No." So she looked at me and said, "Alcohol's worse for you and tobacco's more habit-forming. I'm working with this committee to petition the governor about marijuana." I said. "To make it legal?" And she said, "No, to make it mandatory." Then she said, "Did you ever use mescaline?" I said, "Is that for tension?" She said, "No, it's a religious experience." By now, we've gone about six blocks and I haven't contributed anything, so I said to her, "Have you ever been baptized?" And she said, "No," and I said, "Well, it's pretty good---depends on who does it." She said, "Did you ever use LSD?" And I said, "No, what's that for?" She said, "Therapy." So I said, "What about analysis?" She said, "Don't have time." I said, "What about God?" She said, "Well, my generation feels that Western religions have failed us." I said, "Which ones?" She said, "Well, I don't know, specifically. Name some and I'll tell you." I said, "Christianity." She said, "Yeah, that's one." And I said, "Judaism." And she said, "Yeah---but what's the difference between those?" I said, "Well, the Jews believe in justice and the Christians believe in mercy; but I suppose if you had justice, you wouldn't need mercy."

Anyhow, I see no reason to take anything that'll tune you out. In fact, I think the reason they're allowing so much sexual playing around now among adolescents is to keep them from getting involved in politics. Speaking of kids, did you guys review The Graduate?

[Q] Playboy: Yes.

[A] Sahl: I could've given you an interesting one-line critique: "The Graduate, a picture about a Jewish kid with gentile parents." But, seriously, I don't believe that kid exists. The kid is Mike Nichols, who is 35-plus, and the story's about himself at 25. Now, the picture was successful because it was only 10 years dated; most films are 80 years dated. Funny thing about him---the second time he meets Mrs. Robinson, he sits up in bed and he says, "We never talk to each other." That's the kind of complaint a guy makes after 30 years of marriage. But maybe this generation is being educated differently.

[Q] Playboy: One of the biggest differences today involves student demands for more participation in their own education. If you were a college president, how far would you let the kids go?

[A] Sahl: I'd let them go further than forming an entertainment committee to decide who they're going to book for the spring prom. But, you know, the kids don't want to run the schools. They feel that the administrations are ignoring them and doing outrageous things, like admitting CIA recruiters and Dow Chemical guys on campus. If I were a school president, I'd just do my best to know what's happening---that should be enough.

[Q] Playboy: How would you handle some of the more aggressive tactics, such as occupying buildings and burning files?

[A] Sahl: I don't know. But I'll tell you one thing, I'd pay attention to what they're asking. The job of young people is to ask questions, to help us examine and understand ourselves. We'd better utilize these kids while they're hot, because they're not going to be that productive forever. Most of them are going to join up by the time they're 26. Their fervor won't last till they're 30. I'm not going to endorse violence, but I'm going to ask how did it come to be? There's somebody who is frustrating them at the other end, who is producing this protest. Look at the draft. I don't see too many people over draft age opposing it. Do you blame the kids for protesting?

[Q] Playboy: Are you opposed to the draft per se, or are you against it only as it relates to the war in Vietnam?

[A] Sahl: I never said I was a pacifist. I think World War Two was worth fighting---although I can't think of many others offhand. But I want to show you how people slide the other way. Recently, in San Francisco, Sterling Hayden had a rally for his son, who is a draft resister. Hayden got up at the rally and said these kids are great---with which I agree---and then he went on to say something to the effect that they're not "taken in" the way his generation was, thus condemning everything we have ever done to save America. Well, of course, that's foolishness, because the fact is, Sterling Hayden and his son would be cinders now if we hadn't fought Hitler. But to return to the point, I say the draft is unconstitutional, in all likelihood. And if this country were truly in danger, I don't think we'd need a draft.

[Q] Playboy: Did people break their necks to volunteer during World War Two?

[A] Sahl: Maybe not; but the fact of the matter is, to keep a large Army is not in the people's interest.

[Q] Playboy: Ted Kennedy recently said that a professional Army can be more dangerous than a draft---or citizens'---Army. What do you think?

[A] Sahl: I have no doubt that there are dangers in a volunteer Army. But why don't we talk about what kind of Army we're not going to have? That's the point. In other words, are we going to wage wars of aggression or not? There's only one answer. What's the next question?

[Q] Playboy: The next question relates to a subject you said, a few digressions ago, interests you more than politics: sex.

[A] Sahl: Fire away. But let me say at the outset that, though I've never discussed sex professionally, I certainly have nothing against it. In fact, I think it's terrific---if memory serves.

[Q] Playboy: Let's begin with your description of the perfect woman.

[A] Sahl: Well, I don't expect women to be champions. I don't expect them to be intellectuals. I do expect them to be bright. I'm the champion. I expect them to give me ten good rounds, and how they make up the weight difference and the reach has to be by the intuition that God gave them.

[Q] Playboy: We get the feeling you don't like intellectual girls.

[A] Sahl: There are no intellectual girls. Before you marry any words in the English language, let me tell you the ones that can and cannot be legally wed. The marriages that are made in heaven are "student protest," "Jewish intellectual," "German scientist" and "Irish rebellion." "Intellectual girl" is a shotgun wedding. A girl's idea of intellect is to put a bumper sticker for Gene McCarthy on her Volkswagen or to run around trying to free Caryl Chessman, so that she can play the additional game of testing whether or not liberal attorneys in the American Civil Liberties Union will be unfaithful to their wives. The best thing a dame can do is to find a guy she respects and attempt to make him happy. That's her key to joining the human race. And for those guys out there who would dare say to me, "I found a girl who's really an intellectual, who can sit up all night in front of the fireplace discussing Camus," I would suggest you've not found a girl---you've found a neurotic. Women, by the way, are the ultimate social democrats. They always join up, whichever way it's going. They can marry Freud. They can marry Gauguin. They can stay with Castro in an attic, while Batista's men are looking for him. On the other hand, they can marry a used-car dealer or a mafioso and be equally happy. Nature cursed them with adaptability and, I must say, they live well with their handicap.

[Q] Playboy: Why are you so hostile to women?

[A] Sahl: I'm not hostile, I'm trying to save them. If they would return to their femininity, they'd be fine; they've got to understand what they are. They're not line troops. Their job is to support the men in combat. They're not very good at combat duty, because they don't think in large terms; they have an ant's view of the universe.

[Q] Playboy: Are there any other qualities you look for in a girl?

[A] Sahl: A good girl has straightened things out with her father---it's almost as simple as that. If she's neurotic, she wants a guy as ornery as her old man, but one she can sleep with, which, as you know, is forbidden at home, because Dad is generally married. And women'll never break up a home, not because they're ethical but because they'd feel threatened in their own home. You know, there is honor among thieves. To get back to your question, I look for mercy, compassion and intuition in a girl---all the things I'm not good at. I stay away from actresses and other female impersonators. Sensuousness is a nice trait, but American women are sensuous only until you marry them; then they make love as though all the window shades were up. When they change, they go from 20 to 80.

Do you know the Jewish girl's premarital sex code? Mother says, "You've been seeing an awful lot of this boy. Is he serious about you?" "Yes." "Are you serious about him?" "Yes." "I just want to know one thing. Have you been sleeping with him?" Indignant: "How can you think such a thing of me?" "Is it true?" "Well, of course it's true, but the idea that you could think such a thing of me!" "Are either of you enjoying it?" "No." "Then it's OK." You talk about the Christians' denying enjoyment! Just remember, the Jews are the hardcover book and the Christians are only the paperback.

[Q] Playboy: In your book, what part does sex play in marriage?

[A] Sahl: Women think sex is everything. I think it's about 12 percent. The rest is rubbing the guy's neck and going out for tacos in the middle of the night and being a good listener. Remember how Gary Cooper turns to Jean Arthur in those Frank Capra movies and says: "You know, tomorrow is my big test in court, and I don't know if I can do it." She says, "I know you can do it." He says OK and goes to sleep on her shoulder. That's a woman---one in whom you can confide, even your doubts.

But, you know, the concept of marriage is almost like charity. In marriage, you give people everything except what they really need. In other words, if people will settle for less than love, you don't give it to them. "Why doesn't he love me?" Because, girls, you'll settle for being well taken care of.

[Q] Playboy: Why did your own marriage fail?

[A] Sahl: It wasn't a complete failure. It lasted two and a half years and she was pretty happy during that period. Since then, I've gone out with a succession of chorus girls, which the intellectual Jewish girls at the universities have never understood; they think I'm the biggest disappointment since Arthur Miller.

[Q] Playboy: Do you have a definition of love?

[A] Sahl: Freud said it was the emotional dependence on the presence of the other person and, conversely, when the other person is absent from your side, you feel a sensation of sensory deprivation---to be perfectly romantic about it. Gee, this qualifies me to converse with Hefner and all the priests who surround him every time I see him.

Let's see---how else can we define love? A girl would say, "Well, I'm always a little bit in love; it makes me look better." Girls usually have been in love about 35 times by the time they're 22. As for me, loving gives me a sense of identity. When things are grooving with a dame, I have a feeling that I'm the universe; I feel as if I'm at the hub of the wheel, rather than at the spokes; and the anxiety, the feeling that I've got to get to where the action is, disappears. You know, when you're in love, you can even tolerate an absolutely intolerable environment like Tree Stump, Iowa, or Grainsplit, Nebraska, or even San Francisco.

[Q] Playboy: San Francisco?

[A] Sahl: Yeah, San Francisco. I've never had a good time there except with a girl, and then she's generally been imported. San Francisco has turned out to be an alcoholic's haven, where everybody sits in the lap of incest and talks about how marvelous it is. It's not inconceivable for a girl to awaken you in bed to tell you how wonderful it is to be in San Francisco. Except that nobody's doing anything except getting drunk and dropping out. The press there is extremely negative. It gets its inspiration secondhand, from The New Yorker; and I might add that New York is the only place worse than San Francisco. The land is pretty, but the citizens of San Francisco bear as much relation to Northern California and its beauty as the Fifth Army did to Naples.

[Q] Playboy: Do you feel that way about Southern California, too?

[A] Sahl: No. Los Angeles is good; because if there's going to be an innovation, it comes there first. It's the bellwether of the entire United States, if not of the world.

[Q] Playboy: What can you tell us about the sexual innovations---including organized wife swapping---that are reported to be happening in Los Angeles?

[A] Sahl: I think the biggest innovation that could happen to sex is love. Many people may not be able to relate to that remark, since they've never liked anybody and look upon sex as a form of hostility. You know, a lot of girls go to bed with guys to keep them from getting too personal. That's the easiest thing they can give you. But there are no innovations in sex. The measure of a man is in a woman's eye; the measure of a woman is in a man's eye. No adult will be admitted without a child, so you've got to have a girl with you to be in the human race. A homosexual tries to duplicate what a girl is, but I think it's important to remind faggots that they aren't the real thing. So innovation is a good way to cover up for being a faggot. You know, by experimenting, he can purport to be going to the heights, whereas the pedestrian guy is merely going to bed with a girl. Poor unlucky guy.

[Q] Playboy: There are frequent allegations of a homosexual Mafia in the entertainment world. Have you encountered it?

[A] Sahl: Sure. In composing, in the theater and, to some extent, in films. You can tell what they write. Those movies with Paul Newman, where he always tells the girl off, tells her she's shallow; even when she says, "I love you," the camera is on him.

[Q] Playboy: Are you saying that Newman's a dupe of the homosexual Mafia?

[A] Sahl: No, dupe would mean he's being used. He's not. Newman's very tolerant. But that's the problem: People are busy tolerating homosexuals, and all the while, they are prevailing and they're having a great time. You know, if you talk, about sex three times in the same evening, a girl will refer to you as an animal. But if a homosexual talks about it all day, that's fine, because that's his craft. I don't want to be insensitive, but I don't see anybody starving in that group. They look like they indulge their particular passions and they are always in positions of authority. They have great earning power and I bet they have a more active sex life than you or I. We're probably more hung up with our jobs and with where the hell we are. World War Three will be between homosexuals and Communists; and the Communists will lose, due to inferior organization---and the tolerance of American women.

But getting back to your question about wife swapping: That, I think, is symptomatic of fascism. Fascism means a breakdown of everything we know, including love. Animal psychology tells us the answer. Remember when you applied heat to the rats in the maze and they ran in all directions? Their sense of judgment was suspended because of the heat. That's what is happening in this country. As an example of a similar phenomenon, when Joe McCarthy was at his height, we had more faggots in America than we ever produced before. You can blame it on the American mother, but I blame this whole business of looking for new thrills on fascism.

The only other innovations I know about involve the kids' reaching out for new sensations. A young man of this generation looks at his parents and says, "My father was passionate and a hypocrite; therefore, anybody who's passionate is a hypocrite." Then the kid becomes so cool he doesn't feel anything. Then he says, "I'm being denied, I'm not enjoying life." So he drops acid, takes mescaline and smokes pot to compensate for all the normal sensations he doesn't get. Then he buys a Honda 350 and drives it at 100 miles an hour into a wall, with a girl in the buddy seat. Reaching for excess is merely to admit you're not enjoying what's going on. When you take a sleeping pill, you're not saying that you'll sleep better than someone who dozes off naturally out of the fatigue accrued through constructive work; you're saying you're an insomniac.

[Q] Playboy: A while ago, you said that the only city worse than San Francisco is New York. Why?

[A] Sahl: New York is the last feudal duchy. It has all those land barons and it has a population of serfs, who are known as cabdrivers, doormen and waiters. You see a canopy on Park Avenue and a guy walks out dressed like a fleet admiral and blows a whistle. A cab comes up and I think to myself, "God, this must be at least Prince Philip." But a Jewish businessman walks out, with a sour puss and a black coat, gives the doorman a quarter and gets into the cab to go downtown and start stealing. The ugliness of that city was largely manifested under the leadership of Mayor Wagner and his late partner in crime, Cardinal Spellman. Mayor Wagner would say, "This is terrible; we have a transit tie-up. We need the help of God." And Cardinal Spellman would go in there and say, "It's not available."

[Q] Playboy: Things have changed considerably in the Church since Cardinal Spellman presided over the New York archdiocese. What do you have to say about Catholicism today?

[A] Sahl: First, let me say a few things about it yesterday. It was Henry Wallace who had the guts to stand up in the 1948 Presidential campaign and say, "Americans should not be sacrificed on the altar of a holy war, the Church against Russia." No one's had the guts to say that since. Secondly, the pill---which should be blamed on pharmaceutical houses, not on the Church---took away the only initiative men had. Now, the decision for life is between a girl and her conscience, which is a wider gulf than we might admit, as women are not famous for their honor. Thirdly, I want to tell you what Henry Luce asked Pope John: "How many people work here in the Vatican?" The Pope replied, "Only about a third, unfortunately."

As for today's Church, it still seems to be a step behind society. About the time they're getting ready to allow priests to marry, the rest of us have given up marrying. There's a certain tendency among the clergy to want to liberalize the Church without leaving it. "Wouldn't it be terrific if we could get rid of the Pope and have orgies and wear blue suits?" "Well, what you're really describing is life outside." "No, that's not what I had in mind. I'd like to do this within the structure of the Church."

On the other hand, I've found that Catholic priests are politically the farthest left of all the religious groups. Look at Father Groppi in Milwaukee. He's saying the Church can be concerned with life, as well as with death. My fantasy about Groppi is this: He marches all night for open housing and then during the day he hears confessions from people who had marched with him the night before. A guy comes in and says, "I was civilly disobedient last night, Father. What can I do for penance?" Groppi says, "Burn the police station."

[Q] Playboy: Do you have any religious convictions of your own?

[A] Sahl: I was the author of a line, some years ago, that an atheist is a guy who doesn't get any days off and an agnostic is a guy who doesn't know if he gets them off or not. I'm one of those.

[Q] Playboy: One of which?

[A] Sahl: You figure it out. Many people have credited me with the line that people are leaving the Church and going back to God. I never said that. I think Lenny Bruce said it.

[Q] Playboy: Speaking of Bruce, both you and he have been accused of making the message in your act more important than getting laughs.

[A] Sahl: Yeah, I've been told that audiences don't want to be lectured and I've got news for my critics---I know it. I am a performer and the audience is like a jury. When I go out there, if they don't respond for me in three or four minutes, I switch tracks. I don't beat people over the head with messages. I either get laughs or I get out.

[Q] Playboy: How do you define your style of comedy?

[A] Sahl: It's really poetry. It's a succinct way of stating the case by distilling the issues---often to a single line. For example, how better could you have characterized the candidates than this: "Humphrey says it's an ugly little war, but someone's got to do it. Nixon says it's an ugly little war, but fortunately we got to do it. And Governor Wallace says it's an ugly little war, but it's the only one we've got and we should be thankful for it."

[Q] Playboy: What do you think is the state of American humor today?

[A] Sahl: Our folk humor is the richest humor we've got. Unhappily, the professional comedians aren't as good; they still have to catch up with the people. When you look at a bulletin board at a university and it says, "God isn't dead, he just doesn't want to get involved," or "Tomorrow has been canceled, due to lack of interest," that's where it's at.

[Q] Playboy: What's your reaction to the new freedom for humor on television, as exemplified by the Smothers Brothers and Laugh-In?

[A] Sahl: I think it's a good trend---although I have always felt there was more freedom available than the artists were willing to use. Even during the days of Joe McCarthy, when you had 20 percent freedom, the artists were using eight percent. I think the Smothers Brothers are going in the right direction. But I must add that they stand out in an industry that is literally riddled with people who say nothing and blame it on the network. I don't think there's anything on their minds to be censored. It reminds me of a reporter who said to me, "You think the Government tells me what to write?" I said, "Do they?" He said, "I've been at this paper eight years and no one has ever told me what to write." I said, "Gee, that's terrific." He said, "On the other hand, I will admit that I know pretty much what to hand in." That means the Government doesn't have to call him.

[Q] Playboy: You've done some writing for the Government yourself, as a joke writer for John Kennedy during his campaign for the Presidency. Did you know pretty much what to hand in?

[A] Sahl: Not in the sense you mean. The Kennedy people gave me a pretty free hand in the months I worked for him. I did it anonymously and as a favor, because his father asked me to. I didn't receive any pay for it and I didn't campaign for him and I didn't stand up and wear any buttons saying he's the best man. It's not my job to arrive for dinner at the White House if my man wins. My job is to snipe from outside. During the last election, I was approached by everybody. I was asked by Marlon Brando to work for McCarthy, by Jerry Lewis to work for Senator Kennedy, by John Wayne to work for Nixon, by Chuck Connors to work for Reagan. The last call was from Sinatra, and he ordered me to work for Humphrey. Of course, I refused them all, because not only will I not campaign for a candidate but I'm generally tempted not even to vote for one who shares the same platform with an entertainer.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think things would have been different if John Kennedy had lived?

[A] Sahl: Yes. He sealed his death warrant by de-escalating the tensions between Russia and the United States and by guaranteeing the sovereignty of Cuba. Walter Lippmann says Kennedy wasn't a very good President; it wasn't really Camelot. He did only one thing; he started to end the Cold War with Russia. which wasn't a bad thing, when you think about it. But unfortunately, he died. Well, that's why he died, for his finest accomplishment.

[Q] Playboy: That theory was originated by New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison, for whom you became an investigator in 1967. How did this association come about?

[A] Sahl: It came about originally because I read the entire 26 volumes of the Warren Commission Report and, like any alert reader, found incredible holes in it. I was amazed, subsequently, at the reluctance of most people to talk about it. As for me, there's never been anything that had a stronger impact on my life than this issue. People ask me if I loved Kennedy. Well, I didn't think he was a saint---just an ordinary mortal. Unfortunately, many of the people who now profess to love him do not serve his memory well.

Anyhow, the Warren Report is only the first chapter in this mess. Garrison's investigation, trying to answer the question of who did it, is the next. I went down to New Orleans around the time Garrison had his first press conference, the one in which he said several of those involved in this crime were connected with the CIA. A member of the press asked him, "Have you thought how much harm you can do this country if you're wrong?" Garrison said, "I'm not wrong." And the reporter said, "Have you thought how much harm you can do this country if you're right?" And Garrison answered, "As Virgil said, 'Let justice be done, though the heavens fall.' " So the reporter said, "Virgil who?" and I knew what we were up against. I ended up taping a 90-minute interview with Garrison for my radio show. Shortly after that, I lost both that show and my TV program, and I moved to New Orleans. While there, I did some writing in the morning and worked as an accredited investigator for Garrison the rest of the day. A reporter asked, "How does Garrison justify having a comedian on his staff?" The answer was, "The same way Johnson justifies having seven comedians on the Warren Commission."

[Q] Playboy: You've actually incorporated the Report in your own night-club comedy routine, haven't you?

[A] Sahl: Yes. My routine helps explain what the Report's all about for those who haven't had the chance to read it. I tell my audience that the Warren Report has an eagle on the front, which means that we can believe everything in it. Then we learn that, according to Gallup, 88 percent of the American people don't believe this Report is accurate. So I point out that I'm not going to criticize the Report, because I wouldn't want it on my conscience that I disturbed the faith of the remaining 12 percent. Then I summarize the Report, beginning with Lee Harvey Oswald, a lonely and disgruntled ex-Marine who had gone crazy watching television, as William Manchester relates in his excellent book The Death of a President.

Oswald, our Government tells us, shot Kennedy from the sixth floor of Dallas' School Book Depository. He fired three shots and hit Kennedy---a moving target ---with two of them, even though he hadn't been a superior marksman in the Marine Corps. One bullet, the Commission's Exhibit 399, hit the President five and a half inches below the right shoulder, went through his neck and came out in front, where it paused for 1.8 seconds, due to faulty Italian manufacturing. Then it observed Governor Connally and decided to get him, too. It broke a rib, made a 90-degree right turn and pierced his wrist, made a U-turn and went into his thigh, where fragments were later found. Ninety minutes later, it was discovered beside the President's stretcher---not Connally's---in pristine and unscathed condition, unchanged by all the muscle and bone it had gone through. Later, Oswald wandered off to another part of town and shot Officer Tippit. Then he decided to take in a movie. The Commission tells us he was picked up because the theater owner complained that someone walked in without buying a ticket. This flaunting of the rules of commerce so angered the police that they dispatched seven cars to the scene. After all, the President had been shot 20 minutes before, so they weren't needed. After Oswald was apprehended, he couldn't be questioned, because Jack Ruby shot him while he was being guarded by 70 members of the Dallas police---71, if you want to count Ruby. Incredible.

[Q] Playboy: Your work with Garrison, combined with your allegations some time ago that you'd been black-listed, has led many of your friends to believe you've become paranoid---in other words, that you see conspiracies everywhere. Do you?

[A] Sahl: I certainly do believe a single conspiratorial group---call it an assassination bureau---was involved in the murders of President Kennedy, Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy.

[Q] Playboy: Can you document this?

[A] Sahl: I don't intend to try. I'm a comedian---a performer---and I bring public attention to these issues by satire, not by documentation, which is better handled by those trained for it. All I will say is that your readers are acquainted with much of the data, if they read the Garrison interview (Playboy, October 1967), and more of it will come out in due time. It would have been available already if our own Government wasn't so intent on delaying the trials of the men responsible. Now, if believing---in company with a lot of Americans---that there was a conspiracy to kill my President makes me paranoid, even though I've seen much of the evidence, then so be it.

As for my personal problems---the so-called black list---I never charged that there was a conspiracy against me, in the sense of some group meeting in a smoke-filled room and saying, "Let's get Mort Sahl." It was just that I suddenly became unfashionable. You see, when Eisenhower was in, I was riding high. I could satirize everything he did and show-business people loved it. You know, they're almost all Democrats, except for John Wayne. But when Kennedy got elected and I started giving him the same kind of kidding, that wasn't cool at all. Suddenly, people began accusing me of being anti-Semitic, anti-Negro and other unpleasant things; I was told to lay off the establishment or I'd be kept out of work. But I repeat: It wasn't a conspiracy. It was just hundreds---thousands, actually---of separate decisions by separate individuals, all of them very sincerely bitter because they really thought of me as some kind of traitor or turncoat. Or they just couldn't understand the necessity of what I was doing, the need to challenge the establishment no matter who the establishment is. Steve Allen, for instance, explained my eclipse by saying, "We needed a Mort Sahl back in the days of Joe McCarthy and the witchhunts, but now we don't need him." I answered that by saying I wasn't aware this was now Utopia or I would have enjoyed it more. It was said that I was out of date and behind the times and that maybe I should have gotten work as a carpenter or something--- anything---just as long as I wasn't standing up in public making jokes about everybody's idols and heroes.

But obviously, the liberals are willing to forgive and forget. A television m.c. said to me, even before Nixon was elected, "Gee, the next four years will be great for you." I said, "Don't do it for me." In any case, now that the outs are in, I've been working regularly, so any discussion of a black list becomes academic. Ask me again four years from now.

[Q] Playboy: Most of what you've said throughout this interview has been critical---of the left as well as of the right. Can you tell us what it is that you believe in?

[A] Sahl: I believe that a man's life is his work and that he grows if he does something he believes in. I believe that people who do not believe in anything will wither away and die. I believe an artist exists because he mirrors what the audience is thinking. He does not speak merely for himself. I believe that man has an appetite for freedom that reaches beyond political boundaries.

They used to say no one is above the law. I know a lot of people above the law. And almost anybody is above a lawyer. But I believe no one is above humor. That's the important point---and, you may be relieved to hear, the last one I'm going to make. In that sense, my work is never done. And anyone who is interested in my psychological anatomy, remember that my father worked for the Government all his life. Now, if you want to talk about rebellion against one's upbringing---my number-one target has always been the Government. So draw your own conclusions. But I'm a man of good will; I've never met a government I didn't dislike.

[Q] Playboy: Is that your last word?

[A] Sahl: I sincerely hope there are no groups out there whom I have not offended. Thank you and good night.