Brava, Bo!

John and bo derek talk about their controversial new film--a sexy period piece that takes our heroine from moroccan opium den to Spanish bull ring

Bo And John Derek may live on a quiet hilltop horse ranch in California's Santa Ynez Valley, north of Santa Barbara, but they don't seem to be able to escape controversy, Hollywood style. Their latest film venture, which has variously been titled "Bolero," "Bo-Bolero," "Bo Derek's Bolero" and "Extasy" (spelling theirs), became enmeshed in a series of accusations and counteraccusations between the Dereks and Menahem Golan, whose Cannon Group had originally planned to release the film in conjunction with MGM/UA. A People magazine article this past winter suggested that at worst the movie bordered on the pornographic and at best it was simply a bad picture. Upon reading those allegations and hearing that MGM/UA might not release the film, the Dereks decided to break their recent press silence and talk with us. Contributing Editor David Rensin spent an afternoon poolside with John and Bo at their ranch. His report:

"It was a quintessential California day that, despite the touchy nature of what I was there to discuss, seemed to brighten Bo's and John's moods. They were friendly and talkative, quite a contrast to the taciturn Bo and unreasonable John their press coverage can lead you to expect. Of course, they also knew I had come to let them vent their feelings. And that they did, while John's former. wife Ursula Andress watched over Dimitri, her son by Harry Hamlin, and occasionally sat in on the conversation. John wore jeans, running shoes and a light jacket. Bo, who had spent the early afternoon riding her horse, wore jeans, a heavy green-corduroy shirt and suspenders. No hotpants."

Playboy: What's on your mind these days?

John: I wish it weren't against the law to blow away shit. That's what I'd be doing right now.

Playboy: What do you mean?

John: For our new film, we got into bed with a company that has been, as far as I'm concerned, 100 percent weird and strange. Those people put us in a position of having to answer a bunch of bullshit that time will prove to be bullshit. But in the interim, it just leaves us with fucking egg on our faces.

Playboy: What happened?

Bo: I really don't know. When I showed the picture to Frank Yablans, the head of MGM/UA, some time ago, he thought it was charming. Now MGM won't return my calls.

Playboy: Well, People magazine ran a cover story about the project that among other things suggested that the film bordered on pornography. Will it have to be cut down from an X rating to an R just to be released?

John: Fuck, no. Cannon wanted X desperately. Look, Entertainment Tonight came up here Golan had had his say, wanting to get Bo's side. While she was sitting out here telling things from our perspective, I was inside on the phone to our agent--who is the one to talk with Golan, since we won't. And he was saying, "John, you're not going to believe this, but Menahem just called and said, 'Tell John Derek he's absolutely right. Of course we want an X. Of course we want it. But wasn't I clever the way I turned it into all the publicity we're getting now?'" All while Bo is defending us against reports that Golan says he doesn't want a dirty picture.

Playboy: Are you suggesting that he's trying to gain publicity for the film by damning it?

Bo: At one point, we wanted to buy out his interest in the film for the $5,000,000 he invested, and he was agreeable--though we weren't sure he'd go through with it. Now he's saying there's no way he'll sell the picture. He thinks he has a blockbuster on his hands because of all the dirty publicity he's created. Now everybody wants the picture. The phones are ringing off the hook.

Playboy: That sounds good for you.

John: The idea is to make a film to make money. At the same time, if you have any integrity, you don't want to leave yourself stark-naked at the end of the adventure, having made money but being ashamed to walk out on the fucking street.

Playboy: The People article said you went to Cannon only "after striking out with most of Hollywood." True?

John: Striking out with most of Hollywood refers to a deal we had with Universal to do Eve and That Damned Apple but severed because they procrastinated and never got anything done. But we still had half a dozen other places we could do it with my usual deal of final cut and all that shit--Steven Spielberg's deal, and you can't do much better.

Playboy: It's been suggested that Bolero is worse than bad, not even a picture by motion-picture standards. Does it have a plot?

John: A fucking beginning, middle and end. This is the story: Bo and (text continued on page 124) a Spanish girl are friends in the film. It's the Twenties and they've just graduated from college. And because they are both still virgins, they decide it's time to get some experience. Valentino was the rage those days, and Bo's character wants to give her virginity to a real, live sheik.

Bo: My character is gregarious and crazy and very go-get-'em. The other girl is timid and shy and scared of everything. Golan thought the personalities should be switched. We'd have to reshoot the film, which would cost at least $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 more.

Playboy: We understand Golan also sent you a memo with suggestions on dealing with sex and humor in film.

John: This particular gentleman has no humor. I've never heard anybody laugh at his jokes. His whole film empire is a house of cards. He's having lots of failures, and we don't want to be lumped in with them. He pretends he's the consummate picture maker. Shit, he makes crap.

Playboy: Personalities aside, if that's possible, did you feel he was being presumptuous telling you how to handle sexual situations?

John: I could take advice more readily from you. I don't envision this man involved in sex. He may be having it, but I don't think his partner should applaud him. I don't think he has enough sensitivity to deal with it. I made an explicit film once, and the people who are really into the hard-core stuff said I made a haircream commercial. I make it too pretty, too goody-goody--but that's the way I fundamentally deal with things. I want things to be prettier than they are. My history, my wives show I have some appreciation for beauty. I don't think any of those ladies will denounce me.

Playboy: Will you take advice on love and sex from anyone?

John: I'll take advice on any fucking thing there is. Yes.

Playboy: Is Bolero more consciously sexy than Tarzan, the Ape Man?

Bo: Oh, definitely. But at the same time, as soon as something gets a little sexy, something ridiculous happens and you laugh. It's so melodramatic and corny you can laugh through the whole thing. Menahem still thinks it's a serious love story, which we never set out to make. It's a hokey, corny, Rocky-type thing. We tried for a camp film and we've been very successful at it. Menahem thinks the tongue-in-cheek element should be omitted and only the sexual element retained. The idea that the film is too sexy is just hype.

Playboy: Why did you consider changing the title from Bolero to Extasy--and, for that matter, why did you misspell ecstasy?

Bo: Originally, we were going to use the music from Ravel's Bolero, which was used in "10." But then, for this movie, we got this wonderful music by Elmer Bernstein, so Bolero made less sense. And the reason we thought of calling it Extasy, with an X, is that that's the way Catalina, my character's girlfriend, spells it.

Playboy: Are there certain sexual components always present in your films?

John: When we were going around with Tarzan, we said, "It's not a dirty picture, so don't go and see it for that reason. Tarzan, is sexless."

Playboy: There's nudity.

Bo: But Tarzan and I don't even kiss.

John: We said, "There's no bestiality. We think it's attractive, a little thick, some sweet stuff, a couple of scenes in which I think Bo is absolutely charming and adorable, but the rest of the picture you can stick up your ass." But that's the way most pictures are. Little pieces are worth seeing and the rest you wade through while eating popcorn. But people said, "What about sex?" And I said, "When we think Bo is sexy, we'll hold up our hands. You've got to be pretty kinky to find a pretty body erotic in its natural state."

Playboy: How do you approach a sex scene?

John: I don't think there should be sex onscreen unless there's a reason. For instance, you see a boy and girl involved in a romance. They get married. So why do you have to watch them fuck? I mean, everyone but a newborn baby knows what fucking is. It doesn't further the film in any way. In Bolero, we wanted a reason to go into the bedroom, and that was getting rid of one's virginity a little late in life. The first try is aborted. It's a comedy of errors. The second one is gorgeous. I didn't mean it to turn out that way, but it did. If I were a girl, I would like to lose it the way Bo does in the film. No moaning. Not a moan in the whole fucking picture. This is why I ask myself, "What is happening here?"

Playboy: Would you ever do a picture in which Bo kept her clothes on?

John: Why? The audience doesn't want that. I also wouldn't want to see some lady who is known for her high-powered acting and doesn't have a good body do nude scenes. The audience made Bo a star from "10." We didn't make her a star. Before that, she was in Orca, getting her leg bitten off. Apparently, the audience wasn't into watching broads get their legs bitten off, so that didn't make her a star. If it had, she would have had to go on losing pieces of her body.

Playboy: What you're really saying is that you think Bo's appeal is nudity.

John: Let me turn it around: What do you think it is? If you heard Bo was going to do a film in which she kept her clothes on, would you invest in it? It's like asking John Wayne to do Romeo and Juliet.

Bo: Against-the-grain things can be magic, but you're taking a risk.

John: I think love and sex and beauty are what life is all about, honesty being paramount. And I have great respect for people's honest, sensitive emotions. I don't think we have offended or abused any emotion. If you're kinky, you're going to be disappointed in Bolero. There are no elephants being fucked, not one dirty word in the whole picture. You'd think it would be full of "Up your asses" and crap like that, because that's the way I am in life. But it's not at all the way I want you to be or Bo to be. After seeing Bolero, people will realize that Bo can entertain in her own right without her clothes off. The people whom we respect say she's a comedienne's comedienne now.

Playboy: Is that a goal you have been working toward? Shedding the old skin, so to speak?

John: No, the old skin she can keep until it sheds itself and is truly too old to be seen. But, no, I didn't know Bo could do this. Although we never really discussed it, one of the reasons I could so easily walk away from Eve and That Damned Apple was that it was very sophisticated and sparkly, and I didn't know if she could do it. But after Bolero, I went back and rewrote Eve--and made it even more sparkly, because now Bo can do that shit. I don't know where it comes from; Bo doesn't know. I didn't make her do it. I didn't Svengali her. It just came out of her and it's very dear. I mean, there's no heavy shit to do, but if you watch it, try to picture other people doing it. There are damned few. I didn't go out and defend her on Tarzan because I'd be the first to tell you that she sat through that damned thing sucking her thumb--which was something I told her to do. And a lot of critics got on her for that. But I'd rather have her finger up to her mouth and have her look as if she's doing something--even if it's repeating the same thing a thousand times--than doing nothing. I criticized her terribly in that. Now I don't criticize her at all.

Playboy: Do you fear a marshaling of morally reactionary, antinudity, anti-sex forces against you because of Bolero?

John: I think the line would be about three or four people long.

Playboy: You mentioned Svengali. How do you deal with the constant insinuations that you are manipulative in your relationship with Bo?

John: It gets on my nerves when people read some truth into it. [To Bo] Show him our stationery. [Bo goes into the house] We decided to name our company Svengali after an article that came out about us in The Boston Globe. Bo's the president. [Bo returns with letterhead depicting her as a puppetmaster toying with John's strings] So we did this stationery. It was our way of giving people the finger. And, of course, we've had some backlash. A reporter (concluded on page 152)Brava, Bo!(continued from page 124) writes, "What's this Svengali stuff? I saw her chewing his ass out and he just sits there and says, 'Yes, Bo. 'Yes, Bo.' He's a tired little old man saying yes to this goddamned tough broad." One minute I'm this fucking asshole Svengali monster, and the next, I'm a little old gray-haired man this teeny-bopper is whipping to death. Shit! You can't win.

Playboy: When you can't win, what do you do?

John: You punt. You go up on a fucking mountaintop and pee on them.

Bo: And just let it calm you down.

Playboy: So when you meet the press now, do you try harder?

John: We don't meet the press. We did in the beginning when we were traveling around the world, as a moral obligation to support a picture. But since then, between pictures, Bo's never spoken with anyone.

Bo: Now, when I go places, I have a list of people I'll talk with and ones I won't. That also makes it nicer for the ones you will speak with.

John: And that isn't only people who'll say favorable things about her. It's those who will report the facts--not ones who see her in Levi's and report her in hot, tight, short pink pants that reveal everything.

Bo: And I'm always "bending over"----

John: Throwing her breasts in their faces when she's actually wearing a sweat shirt.

If Bo looks like a piece of shit and somebody reports it that's Bo's problem. But don't invent the way she looks.

Playboy: How true is the People report about the MGM/UA executives' laughing derisively during the screening?

Bo: After Cannon sent this telex about people's laughing in the wrong places and the picture's being insufferable, I called a publicity person at MGM/UA and asked how the screening had gone. He said, "Fine; everything went fine." I said that I'd heard some guys were mouthing off in the back row, and he said, "Oh, you know, boys will be boys and they play their games when it gets a little sexy. But it's a very commercial picture and it's going to go well." I asked someone else who was there and got basically the same reaction.

Playboy: Why do you insist on doing these projects together?

John: We prefer to stick together.

Bo: We've been together for ten years and all this [stardom] happened just four years ago. So we had had six years of living together 24 hours a day, doing everything together. We've produced several pictures together. Then, all of a sudden, this [popularity] was separating us an awful lot. That's not good, and that's not what our relationship is. So we make pictures together. But sometimes, I don't think John is going to do it again with me.

It seems like more trouble than it's worth.

John: If she'd go in her direction and I in mine, I think some people would be happier than pigs in shit.

Bo: They'd leave us alone for a while.

Playboy: Why do you think problems follow you around?

John: They don't.

Bo: We don't accept them.

John: I think our relationship just irritates the piss out of a lot of people, that I'm 30 years older than Bo and she hasn't chucked me out for some stud.

Bo: I think what bothers Menahem most is that he has been wrong so many times and looked really foolish. He couldn't find us doing anything wrong. We didn't even have a limo on the film; we didn't take big hotel suites.

Playboy: What makes a good picture?

John: The best picture is, ultimately, the illusion that it is not shit even though it's made up of elements of shit. Films are lies, bullshit, escapism. We're not doing Vietnam documentaries. A good film is one that you walk away from forgetting that the world is blowing up around you.

Playboy: How do you rate yourself as a writer and director?

John: Using what we have in the business as a norm? [Pauses] I'm not going to say I take a back seat to one living fuck in the business. I don't think anyone is more conscientious than I am. I have no pretenses that we're trying to make the great drama.

Playboy: Bo, how do you rate yourself as an actress?

Bo: Well, after this picture, I'm getting better. I'm learning a lot. This all happened so fast. I wasn't an actress when we did "10." And I wasn't trying to be. But I'm learning now.

John: Let me answer it, because she can't say it. Bo, what did the president of MGM say after you screened the picture for him?

Bo: It was really nice. He talked about the picture's being charming. He said, "I'm knocked out by what you did, Bo." He said it three or four times.

Playboy: Will the film do well?

John: Oh, shit, yes. Are you kidding? It's going to make gigantic dollars. Gigantic dollars. Gigantic fucking dollars.

Bo: It's a nice film.

John: It's a goddamn nice film.

Playboy: Last question. In the People article, one photo caption mentioned the "obligatory Playboy spread" to follow. Care to comment?

John: I have a fervent hope that these obligatory critiques from People will have no place to be printed. I hope People goes out of fucking business soon. It is a dishonest publication. I don't think Playboy is dishonest. It puts forward what it is, and it always has.

Playboy: Do you think People would print nude shots of Bo if you offered them?

John: Oh, yes. Oh, fuck, yes.

"I think our relationship just irritates the piss out of a lot of people, that I'm 30 years older than Bo."