Playboy Interview: Walid Jumblatt

a candid conversation--about beirut and civil strife, "dallas" and reincarnation--with the lebanese war lord who held off the marines

Lebanon. The name is synonymous with shellings and massacres and shootings and car bombings. In a word, chaos. Lebanon is where more U.S. Marines have died than in any other engagement since the Vietnam war. It is where Reagan's foreign policy, which ended with the euphemistic "redeployment" and subsequent pull-out of U.S. forces, suffered a defeat some observers have compared to the Bay of Pigs fiasco. Even after the pull-out of the Marines (and that of the rest of the multinational force), television broadcasts continue to make the bloody streets of Beirut as painfully familiar as the Mekong Delta was to a generation of U.S. viewers.

If there is an individual most responsible for the frustration of U.S. policy in Lebanon, it is Walid Jumblatt, the 34-year-old leader of a mysterious Islamic sect known as the Druse and the head of Lebanon's Progressive Socialist Party. Jumblatt's fiercely disciplined and personally loyal army of Druse fighters has met the U.S.-supported central army of President Amin Gemayel and has virtually defeated it. Jumblatt now controls more Lebanese territory than the government does. With only about 7000 regular troops and about 25,000 members of the Druse people's armed militia (some of them boys as young as ten), Jumblatt is not timid about taking on the U.S. itself: In response to what he claims was shelling by the Marines, his Druse sporadically rained artillery down on the Marine base throughout 1983. When the U.S. Ambassador's residence was shelled, the U.S.S. New Jersey aimed its 16-inch guns at the Druse's mountain redoubts surrounding Beirut and began pounding away before finally picking up its shells and steaming off.

Isolated in their hillside villages in the Shuf Mountains, the Druse are legendary for their fighting ability and are excluded by their esoteric religion from the rest of the population; they may well be the most homogeneous group in a country of vividly contrasting nationalities, sects and political ideologies. Jumblatt, whose family has led the Druse for generations, is a Western-educated (at the American University of Beirut), well-traveled man of philosophical bent who took command when his father was assassinated in 1977. As he put it to Playboy, "few of the Jumblatts had a natural death." He divides his time between Damascus, where his ally Hafez al-Assad, president of Syria, makes him feel welcome, and the Shuf Mountains, where his soldiers and his people wait with rifles poised.

Lebanon seems to invite invasion. Besides uncounted invasions in the past century, it has been overrun three times in just the past eight years; by Syria in June 1976, by Israel in March 1978 and again by Israel in June 1982. Syria, whose troops have occupied the western part of Lebanon since the 1976 invasion, is undoubtedly the ranking power in the region (though Jumblatt angrily denies being a puppet of Assad's), and it is Syria's ties to the Soviet Union that worries the West and President Reagan in particular.

To understand the context of Lebanon's present troubles, a quick recap may be in order. Lebanon's 20th Century difficulties began immediately after World War One. To satisfy French demands, the British allowed Paris a mandate to govern "the Lebanon," which was then technically a part of Syria. At that time, the population effectively consisted of two groups: the Druse and the Maronite Christians. The French separated Lebanon from Syria, then expanded the boundaries of Lebanon to include inhabitants who were Moslems. Paris ruled through its protégés, the Maronites, who were then compliant and dependent on the French for material support. Lebanon became independent of Syria in 1941, and in 1943 a national covenant was hammered out and was reluctantly agreed to by all parties. In theory, it was to have provided a balance among the factions, with the titular leadership residing with the Maronites. It worked well until the great influx of Palestinians after the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. A decade later, a civil war began between the Christian and the Moslem forces. President Eisenhower sent U.S. troops there in July 1958, imposing an uneasy peace, but that invasion has been blamed for halting a necessary redistribution of power and setting the stage for what was to follow. Palestinians from Jordan fleeing the civil war in that country in 1970 substantially increased the Moslem population, creating further imbalance, though the government remained in the hands of the Maronites. That civil war also brought the militant arm of the Palestinians--the P.L.O.--into Lebanon, and that set off a civil war between the P.L.O. and the Lebanese government in 1973. That introduced the Syrians, who invaded the country in 1976, supposedly at the request of the Beirut government so that the bloodshed might stop. The Syrians occupied the country, brutally suppressed the P.L.O. and have remained in Lebanon. For reasons supposedly linked to their own national security, the Israelis conducted their two invasions shortly thereafter, and there has been no effective government in Lebanon since that time. Gemayel, the latest of the Maronite leaders, became president after his brother Bashir was elected--and was promptly assassinated--but he is president in name only. Within Lebanon, the man calling the shots is Walid Jumblatt.

Playboy sent free-lance journalist and syndicated political columnist Morgan Strong to speak with this enigmatic guerrilla, scholar and self-avowed war lord while the so-called reconciliation talks were taking place in Lausanne, Switzerland, in March of this year. Strong's report:

"I first talked with Jumblatt in Damascus in 1983, during the height of American involvement in Lebanon and just before the suicide bombing of Marine headquarters. He confirmed to me at that time that his men had, indeed, fired upon U.S. Marines holding positions at the Beirut airport--in retaliation, he said, for Marine shelling of the Druse positions.

"When Playboy sent me to Lausanne, the atmosphere was no less tense. The Hotel Beau Rivage was decorated in Beirut-civil-war style: Barricades blockaded the streets around the hotel; the high walls surrounding it were topped with concertina razor wire; sandbag bunkers ringed the entrance. Swiss riot police in long black-leather coats stood outside with automatic rifles cradled in their arms. Helicopters swooped down low from time to time and, except for the missing sound of artillery and gunfire, the participants from Lebanon must have felt right at home.

"Our first meeting was at the Beau Rivage. After considerable security checks, I was taken to the Druse headquarters within the hotel. It was a suite in constant turmoil and disarray. A video-cassette recorder was invariably playing an American movie as Arabs watched from couches surrounding the TV set. There was loud, excited talk, and messengers darted in and out. Jumblatt himself came out of a small bedroom off the sitting room and offered his hand cordially. He is tall and very thin, with large, unblinking eyes. If there is a single word to describe him, it is intense; he unbent slightly but never completely in later 'Interview' sessions. We sat in his bedroom for our first session, which was somewhat stiff, and he sipped cognac as he gave terse answers.

"As the conference dragged on, I spent most of my time in my hotel room across town waiting for a call from Jumblatt's aides. When it came, I was told we would meet not at the Beau Rivage but at Jumblatt's own hotel. Its location outside Lausanne was a closely guarded secret for security reasons. When two Arab assistants picked me up and ushered me into Jumblatt's large, bulletproof Mercedes, I made a point of not watching too closely where we were going.

"When we arrived at the hotel--which or where I'm still not sure--we were greeted by the Druse chief and his beautiful, blonde Jordanian wife. Jumblatt and I sat down for a long session in an anteroom off the hotel lobby, and by then, though the reconciliation talks were disintegrating and his conversation reflected his resignation to that fact, he had loosened up and was speaking candidly with me.

"We met sporadically over the next several days. As the prospects for reconciliation grew dimmer, the atmosphere grew more tense. There was infighting and jockeying for position among the participants, and Jumblatt seemed more and more fatalistic in our private conversations. Security at the Beau Rivage grew tighter: Metal detectors went up and more guards were added around the Druse suite. Jumblatt's candor with me grew to the point where I felt uneasy with what amounted to state secrets. For instance, he had told me for publication that Libya had been his principal supplier of arms and funds but that Libya's strong man, Muammar el-Qaddafi, had stopped the supply. He and his army, he said, were strapped and had to 'shop around'--this while his opponents were a few floors below assessing his military prospects. In fact, a few hours later, Jumblatt's Druse militia back in Lebanon attacked, for the first time, the stronghold of the radical Murabitunian and quickly commandeered their headquarters and military equipment. That group had been supported exclusively by Qaddafi.

"I saw Jumblatt for the last time the day before the talks fell apart and he headed back to Lebanon. Through it all, I came to respect his openness, which not only is unique among Arab leaders but is a quality absent from most political leaders. That alone might qualify him for the nearly impossible job some observers feel he is destined to hold--president of Lebanon."

[Q] Playboy: How much longer can this bloody war in Lebanon go on?

[A] Jumblatt: That's a good question. We are in our tenth year. It seems the Lebanese are not civilized.

[Q] Playboy: How many casualties have there been?

[A] Jumblatt: Whew! Nobody knows. In Lebanon, around 100,000, they say. More than 1,000,000 scattered refugees, so many wounded. I have no idea.

[Q] Playboy: Why do you continue to kill one another?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, you also had your Civil War in the States. It was quite a bloody civil war, too. But somebody lost and somebody won. So, really, it's the same thing. Somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. We'll see whether I'll be the next Lee or the next Grant.

[Q] Playboy: Reconciliation talks are going on in this hotel as we speak. Is there any hope of a resolution through them?

[A] Jumblatt: That is why I'm here--to meet with my opponents and to try to fix up a deal. Perhaps we'll fix something up; perhaps not. But in either case, I'm going back home--for peace or for war.

[Q] Playboy: What's the real state of negotiations at present?

[A] Jumblatt: Truthfully? Rubbish. But I have to do it. Just part of the show, just part of the game.

[Q] Playboy: Rubbish? Most of the world is watching for some sign of progress to end the fighting and you say it's rubbish? Aren't people dying for you?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, I couldn't tell my people and others that I refused to come to Geneva because I knew the talks would be rubbish. They wouldn't have believed me. So I had to tell them I was coming here to negotiate some peace and security--which is not the case. Sometimes you have to fool your people. You can't always tell your people the whole truth; they won't be able to understand it.

[Q] Playboy: So this exercise is pointless?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. I know it's rubbish. But there are crazy people, too. Maybe I'm crazy! [Laughs]

[Q] Playboy: Does President Gemayel feel that way, too?

[A] Jumblatt: No, no. Gemayel just wants to hold on to his power, to profit from it. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The impasse is not because of us, the Druse. It is the Christians who are quarreling among themselves.

[Q] Playboy: But the Christians are your opponents.

[A] Jumblatt: Yes, but there are different factions there, different war lords.

[Q] Playboy: War lords? Why do you call them that?

[A] Jumblatt: Because we are all war lords in Lebanon.

[Q] Playboy: Are you a war lord, too?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. Gemayel, too. Gemayel's father and my father were war lords, along with all the other leaders.

[Q] Playboy: So when you sit down and talk with President Gemayel, it is something like war lords' meeting during feudal times. Is that how you actually deal with one another?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes, like feudal lords or godfathers, something like that. It's still very, very feudal in Lebanon. We are living in the Middle Ages, even though we have a so-called surface of civilization.

[Q] Playboy: You made the statement recently that you thought Gemayel should commit suicide. Were you joking?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, he was terribly defeated. He was forced by the Syrians and by us to change his whole policy. I don't know if he has a minimal feeling of dignity. I don't think he does. His basic concern is to hold on to power. I think it would be better for him to commit suicide, but he won't do it.

[Q] Playboy:Were you joking about it?

[A] Jumblatt: We have to joke. If we take politics too seriously, we'll take ourselves too seriously. Nothing is serious in life.

[Q] Playboy: Are you saying, "What the hell?"

[A] Jumblatt: Not "What the hell?" when it comes to the interests of my community. That I care about. My aims are very limited. It's better to have limited aims.

[Q] Playboy: But if you believe so strongly in your people's interests, why not make every effort to resolve the conflict?

[A] Jumblatt: Because we are blocked by the fact that it is not a purely Lebanese issue. It's an international issue. We are just surrogates for somebody, puppets for somebody. Everybody is a puppet.

[Q] Playboy: That seems a rather fatalistic attitude, doesn't it?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, take the killing of my father. My grandfather was killed, too. It's a tradition of the family. The father of the father of my grandfather was killed, too, on duty. As you go down the line for 300 years, few of the Jumblatts had a natural death. My aunt was killed; my ex-wife committed suicide. So it's cynical, but it helps you be fatalistic.

[Q] Playboy: How do those things help?

[A] Jumblatt: Their personal experience helps me confront realities and see that the problems of this life are minor and see that this whole world is going to absurdity. Total absurdity.

[Q] Playboy: However fatalistic, your philosophy reflects the fact that you are an educated man, not merely the war lord you claim to be.

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. I took my B.A. In political science at the American University of Beirut. I wanted to go somewhere in the States for graduate school and maybe finish my Ph.D. But I couldn't, because the civil war broke out.

[Q] Playboy: Since you're perceived as having hostile feelings toward the United States, why did you want to go there?

[A] Jumblatt: I simply wanted to get an education, knowledge. I wanted to know what was going on in the world. I think that in the United States, you can see what's going on in the world.

[Q] Playboy: Before the war, you had traveled to the U.S., hadn't you?

[A] Jumblatt: Twice. New York, Washington, Los Angeles.

[Q] Playboy: How did you feel about American society then?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, once you land in the States, you forget everything about the outside world. This is why I understand the American people. You are so totally involved with yourselves, you are sucked into the system by everything. You don't think about the outside world.

[Q] Playboy: What do you mean?

[A] Jumblatt: It's so easy there to get involved with the system. All of life there is easy, in a way. A foreigner will always want to know more and to profit from this easy life, this American way of life--at least a privileged foreigner, like me.

[Q] Playboy: Do you mean by privileged that you had a lot of money?

[A] Jumblatt: Not a lot of money. I'm not a Saudi sheik, fortunately, or I would be spoiled. I mean only privileged enough to travel and see what America was like. I was crazy about your TV system, just crazy! You have so many programs, you are obliged to look at TV! I did it for a week's time; it was just terrible! I was obsessed by the TV--all night long. Unbelievable, just unbelievable!

[Q] Playboy: Did you find us capable?

[A] Jumblatt: Efficient. In your fields, very efficient.

[Q] Playboy: What demonstrated that?

[A] Jumblatt: Your technology--you see it everywhere. We are greatly influenced by this in the Middle East, though it is kind of imposed. The media are terribly American. The whole Middle East. for instance, watches Dallas--that stupid program.

[Q] Playboy: You mean that in the midst of this war, while you are killing yourselves and our battleships are bombarding you, everyone still watches Dallas?

[A] Jumblatt: Definitely--people wait for the next program with anticipation.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think Dallas is the common image of America?

[A] Jumblatt: I don't know, but I was a bit disappointed by my countrymen's interest in it. But life is so easy in America. You go to the airport and buy a ticket right on board an airplane--on the shuttle from Washington to New York. Terrific communications!

[Q] Playboy: How did you like Washington?

[A] Jumblatt: Impressive, but I preferred New York. There, you can truly forget the whole world; you have the whole world in New York, so you can forget the rest of the world at the same time.

[Q] Playboy: How did you get around in New York--by subway?

[A] Jumblatt: No. I would not dare go in the New York City subway. I don't think so. I was told not to go alone down there.

[Q] Playboy: Let's see if we got this right: The most ferocious war lord in the Middle East was afraid to travel in the New York City subway?

[A] Jumblatt: I wouldn't dare go. No way.

[Q] Playboy: Subway aside, what is it about U.S. society that formed your view of us?

[A] Jumblatt: As I said, I was overwhelmed by your cosmopolitan society and your technology. But it was a technology without an end, without a human end--technology for its own sake. That's what America is today--sort of a faceless society. Americans have lost the old American ideals of freedom, equality, justice. They were lost maybe somewhere in Vietnam. I think it's foolish nowadays for Americans to claim them. It's an old American dream--like the famous book by Norman Mailer, An American Dream.

[Q] Playboy: You seem to be pulled in two directions--you show a certain fondness for America and a loathing for it.

[A] Jumblatt: It's a dream, perhaps. It's nice to live in a dream, very nice. But, at the same time, to live in America is harsh, very harsh. I noticed that. You are challenged daily--every second. You have to challenge back. It's a ruthless society. If you lose, you're over, you're dead.

[Q] Playboy: Are you seriously saying America is more ruthless than your war-torn country?

[A] Jumblatt: In Lebanon, we kill ourselves directly. In America, you don't kill one another immediately; you die slowly.

[Q] Playboy: You seem to be saying that even though your society is in the midst of a civil war, ours is worse.

[A] Jumblatt: Not worse, but there is turmoil in your country, and it will increase. America will be invaded by the Hispanics--Mexicans and others. I think that you can't build a fence. The whole Western world will be invaded by the poor of the world, from the South, before they die of hunger.

[Q] Playboy: Still, given the love-hate relationship you seem to have with our country, it's not hard to imagine your picking up and moving there.

[A] Jumblatt: Why not? Why not? It would be a case of having to leave my own country. But, yes, it could be a solution, because there has been more than ten years of civil war. And I'm just fed up with the killing and killing and killing for so many years!

[Q] Playboy: But not fed up enough to stop. Some part of you, the part that is the war lord, must like it.

[A] Jumblatt: I do like it, yes. It's interesting. For me, it's interesting. But the most serious answer is that it's part of my duty. There are people dying for me, so I have to be loyal to them, to this small tribe. I can't say, "Well, gentlemen, bye-bye. I'm going off to have a nice time in Las Vegas." It wouldn't work.

[Q] Playboy: Tell us more about your small tribe, about how you became involved in all this.

[A] Jumblatt: It started because of the political role of my family. I had to succeed my father, who was assassinated in 1977.

[Q] Playboy: Did you want to succeed him?

[A] Jumblatt: I'm the only son. I was expected to succeed him, but ... by the way, we are talking on the seventh anniversary of his death.

[Q] Playboy: And you were suddenly thrust into his role?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. I was afraid at the beginning that I couldn't do it. I was young, without any experience. But now I like it. Now I think it's all right. I think so; I don't know.

[Q] Playboy: So you took on the mantle?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. Druse tradition and family tradition.

[Q] Playboy: Are the Jumblatts the hereditary rulers of the Druse?

[A] Jumblatt: My family goes back 300 years in Lebanon. It has always had a tremendous political role. We are one of the greatest feudal families there. At one time, we were nobility, and we are still important. But circumstances change. We have always ruled the Druse, yes.

[Q] Playboy: And your tradition also seems to include constant war.

[A] Jumblatt: Not always but just to keep up with certain traditions. I will have to teach my son, who is two years old. I have two sons. I will teach one of them. I will teach him to be a political leader and also how to prove himself.

[Q] Playboy: Doesn't that affect you in some way, to know that you will be preparing your child to continue the war and probably die in it if need be?

[A] Jumblatt: I hope that in 15 years' time, when he's ready, the civil war will be over. I hope that it ends next Saturday. I hope so! Ah! I would like for them to avoid that experience if possible. But later on, they will have to do their duty. Duty, duty is one of the beasts of the world.

[Q] Playboy: How do you deal with those feelings on a personal level? How does it feel not to know if you or your family will live through another day?

[A] Jumblatt: We become inhuman. We no longer respond to normal human feelings.

[Q] Playboy: Judging by the security precautions you put us through to conduct this Interview, it's obvious there are many people waiting to kill you.

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. Living this way has become a habit. Better not to think about the fact that at any place, on any corner, somebody is waiting to shoot you. Death is waiting for you; that's it.

[Q] Playboy: Would you have preferred that your family not inherit this responsibility?

[A] Jumblatt: It's too late to speak about it. It's destiny.

[Q] Playboy: Do you believe in your destiny?

[A] Jumblatt: I believe my destiny was to lead the Druse. That's what I'm doing--for the time being.

[Q] Playboy: Tell us, who are the Druse?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, it's an Islamic sect, an offshoot of Islam. It goes back to the Tenth Century. Although our roots are in Islam, we were greatly influenced by Greek philosophy, Platonic philosophy. We believe, as Plato did, that reason and logic are the ultimate goals of mankind. Individuals should purify themselves through logic down through the centuries. Among the Druse, Plato and Socrates are venerated.

[Q] Playboy: Purify yourself through the centuries? What do you mean by that?

[A] Jumblatt: It means that we purify ourselves through reincarnation. We have also adapted into our culture and religion certain Indian philosophies. We believe in the process of reincarnation, that there is no heaven or hell. Through that process, even though we Druse are a minority, we are to come back again on earth, but in another generation, in a new century. Ultimately, we will finish the purification process through the final reincarnation.

[Q] Playboy: The Druse are only about seven percent of the population of Lebanon, aren't they?

[A] Jumblatt: Seven or ten percent; nobody knows, because the last population census in Lebanon was taken in 1932. From that time on, nobody has known what the population is.

[Q] Playboy: And your people mostly live in the Shuf Mountains, overlooking Beirut.

[A] Jumblatt: Yes, and in the Golan Heights. There are also 40,000 Druse in Syria and Israel. The Israeli Druse, in fact, were quite active in the fighting during Israel's invasion of Lebanon.

[Q] Playboy: So other Druse were fighting your people?

[A] Jumblatt: They are not fighting me as Druse. They are fighting as members of the Israeli Defense Forces. At the same time, there are good relations between us and the Israeli Druse. They respect our homes and people on Mount Lebanon.

[Q] Playboy: With such small numbers and such a rational culture, how do you explain the determination of your people? There are some who feel your fighters have singlehandedly frustrated American policy in Lebanon.

[A] Jumblatt: That's something else! I was defending myself--my pure physical existence in Lebanon as a Druse. I know I'm a minority, but I'm entitled to live on my land and to have my rights. That is why I defended myself, and I will defend myself furiously.

[Q] Playboy: And American policy did not take that into consideration?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, the American policy was based on the idea that it would be possible to rule Lebanon through one party--Gemayel's party, the Christian Phalange. The Druse resisted, forcibly resisted. There were also uprisings from the Shi'ite Moslems, and then the central Lebanese army collapsed.

[Q] Playboy: Why was the U.S. Marine base shelled?

[A] Jumblatt: The Marines shelled us first. Ask Reagan: Why did he send the Marines to Lebanon? What for?

[Q] Playboy: His position is that they were there as part of an international force to maintain the peace. So why were they attacked?

[A] Jumblatt: Their presence there was seen by some people as being hostile, because they supported Gemayel. That is why the Marines were hit. Later on, they hit us from offshore. This famous New Jersey [battleship] shelled us; it has quite big guns.

[Q] Playboy: Were many Druse killed?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. The Marines destroyed so many villages, killed so many people! I think in all about 20 people were killed directly by the New Jersey. Many others were wounded, but so much destruction. It makes quite big holes.

[Q] Playboy: The New Jersey shelled civilian targets?

[A] Jumblatt: Definitely. It destroyed entire villages. But that doesn't mean that I have any profound hatred or dislike toward Americans or Westerners.

[Q] Playboy: You don't blame the American people?

[A] Jumblatt: No, no. They're not responsible. The GIs who went to Beirut are not responsible for Reagan's policies. He decided to send them to be killed. That happened when I attacked American policy after the Marines began shelling my areas from their ships.

[Q] Playboy: That's confusing to follow. You say you didn't think of the Marines as the enemy; you attacked American policy. But you did shell the Marines.

[A] Jumblatt: I didn't think of them as enemies. But they were ordered to fire on me, so I had to answer back. Poor chaps. I don't think they knew what they were doing in Lebanon. But it's good now that they are off Lebanese shores--for their security, their families, their wives. But I have nothing against the American people. Don't tell me that everything that is decided by the Government is approved by the American people.

[Q] Playboy: Did you have any contact with the American mediators during the period of American involvement in Lebanon?

[A] Jumblatt: I was always meeting with the Americans. The ambassadors, the special envoys--from [Philip] Habib to [Donald] Rumsfeld.

[Q] Playboy: Why haven't you been able to come to some understanding with them?

[A] Jumblatt: I would like to make a deal; they don't want to make a deal with me. They think I'm a Soviet agent. They think that I'm Syria's puppet. They think I'm an extremist--all kinds of rubbish.

[Q] Playboy: Are you a Syrian puppet?

[A] Jumblatt: [Angrily] I am nobody's puppet! Syria has its agenda, I have mine. I am allied with Syria. Canada is allied with the United States. Is Canada's prime minister and American puppet?

[Q] Playboy: Are you a Communist?

[A] Jumblatt: I'm a socialist; there is a big difference. Can you say that Willy Brandt or Helmut Schmidt is a Communist? I'm a Social Democrat, if you like.

[Q] Playboy: How do you define that term?

[A] Jumblatt: It means that I want equity and justice for my people.

[Q] Playboy: You've gone to Moscow several times, haven't you?

[A] Jumblatt: Several times, but that doesn't mean I'm a Communist. American Presidents went to Moscow, too--are they Communists? I'm not a Communist, because I still believe in spiritual--let's say, the approach that the universe is guided by a special light. I'm not an atheist. I believe in God, in a way. I have my own approach to God.

[Q] Playboy: How effective do you think the U.S. special envoys were? Did Habib do an effective job?

[A] Jumblatt: Not specifically speaking, no. He was much too influenced by his ethnic origins. He is Lebanese, after all, a Maronite [the ruling Christian minority]. He is a nice chap. But at the same time, [former Secretary of State Alexander] Haig was making all the decisions.

[Q] Playboy: How about Rumsfeld?

[A] Jumblatt: I met him once. He's a nice guy. He was trying to find out what it's all about in Lebanon.

[Q] Playboy: So you felt he wasn't particularly competent?

[A] Jumblatt: He should have stayed longer, maybe, to get in touch with the realities of Lebanon.

[Q] Playboy: Have you ever spoken or communicated, directly or indirectly, with President Reagan?

[A] Jumblatt: [Deadpan] No. No. I have never had that great privilege or that great honor.

[Q] Playboy: How about Henry Kissinger?

[A] Jumblatt: [Tightly] I haven't met him. But he's partly, or greatly, responsible for our problems.

[Q] Playboy: How?

[A] Jumblatt: He thought it was possible to have separate deals between Israel and the Arab states. He wrote up the Camp David agreement, and we suffered the consequences. So now there is no way to achieve the Camp David agreement.

[Q] Playboy: How could Kissinger have been responsible? Camp David was worked out under President Carter.

[A] Jumblatt: The policy of Kissinger and Nixon was responsible: One, separate Egypt from the Arab world. Two, deal with the Palestinians in Lebanon. Strike at the Palestinians there; weaken them.

[Q] Playboy: Then you feel that the Palestinian problem is the root of the difficulties?

[A] Jumblatt: The Palestinian people were scattered because of the creation of the state of Israel. We are not against the recognition of Israel, but we also want the Palestinians to go back to their land. They are asking for their own state in the West Bank and Gaza. We support that.

[Q] Playboy: But wasn't the presence of the P.L.O. in Lebanon the reason for the divisions that led to the fighting?

[A] Jumblatt: One of the reasons, not the basic reason. It created a kind of instability. We tried to profit from the P.L.O.'s presence to overwhelm the others.

[Q] Playboy: Now that the P.L.O. has been driven out of Lebanon, would you ever allow it back into the country?

[A] Jumblatt: The P.L.O. as a political organization, yes. Militarily, I think we've paid a high enough price. As a Lebanese, I have to say, "Enough!" No, I would not allow the fighters back.

[Q] Playboy: You mentioned your destiny. Do you believe you are destined to be the president of Lebanon?

[A] Jumblatt: I have to believe it's possible, but I don't know if it's realizable. After all, Lebanon is much too complex to be ruled. It can be ruled, but you need to be very clever and you need a modern political system. Right now, Lebanon is just a jungle, with tribes fighting one another.

[Q] Playboy: Would you like to be the president of Lebanon?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, yes. But I don't think that I'll become president in the near future. I represent a small minority. If we achieve a deal that separates state and religion, I could be the next president.

[Q] Playboy: Could a leader of a small minority govern as president?

[A] Jumblatt: Maybe. Why should a Druse or a Catholic or a Shi'ite or a Jew--we have Jews in Lebanon--not be allowed to be president? Why should the presidency be allowed only to the Maronites?

[Q] Playboy: If you were to become president, what kind of a government would you try to establish?

[A] Jumblatt: Oh! Social welfare.

[Q] Playboy: What is a social-welfare government as you see it?

[A] Jumblatt: It would give the people their basic rights, at a minimum. I would try not to have anyone die of hunger, at least. America is a very wealthy society with equity and justice, but people are dying of hunger.

[Q] Playboy: How would you ensure that no one died of hunger?

[A] Jumblatt: Redistribute the wealth, if possible.

[Q] Playboy: You mean from the Christians?

[A] Jumblatt: Not only from the Christians; there are wealthy Druse and Shi'ites. Ten percent of the Lebanese have all the wealth.

[Q] Playboy: Specifically, how would you spread the wealth?

[A] Jumblatt: We have to have an appropriate tax system. If I had the power of the presidency, I think I would have parliament behind me. Then we would pass laws so the rich would have to pay.

[Q] Playboy: You say you're a Social Democrat, not a socialist; but do you want to establish a socialistic state in Lebanon, by the traditional methods of nationalization of free enterprise, etc.?

[A] Jumblatt: We have to take into consideration that this so-called free economy of Lebanon is no longer valid. There should be regulations to establish a kind of social-welfare state, to give the majority of people social assurances.

[Q] Playboy: What else would be important in the new state you envision?

[A] Jumblatt: Civil rights. It's important to have civil rights. Many Lebanese do not, legally speaking, have them.

[Q] Playboy: Such as women's rights? Would your state be different from other Islamic societies, where equality for women does not exist?

[A] Jumblatt: Why? Who said so? No, the Moslem women are equal to the men in full rights. They do not participate in a full life because of tradition, maybe. In any case, in Lebanon we are a multi-religious, not an Islamic, society.

[Q] Playboy: Perhaps it's different in Lebanon, but you can't deny that women have vastly fewer rights than men in Islamic societies.

[A] Jumblatt: Yes, I do. That is a misrepresentation of Moslem women. You can find veils and harsh laws in Iran but no place else. Arab women are very active and very liberated in Lebanon and Syria and Egypt. The stereotype of an Arab riding a camel is just not true.

[Q] Playboy: You're talking about the exceptions to the rule in Arab states, but let's move on. You were obviously exposed to the role of American women when you traveled in the U.S. Did you have any reaction to them?

[A] Jumblatt: Well, you have a variety of people there, so the mixture is very interesting .... [Smiles] When will this Interview be published?

[Q] Playboy: In about two months.

[A] Jumblatt: I hope the Playmate will be beautiful. I hope so.

[Q] Playboy: We'll make sure she is.

[A] Jumblatt: Definitely. Do I have to sign any papers? [Laughs]

[Q] Playboy: No. We'll take care of it. Going back to the sort of society you might try to establish, what do you think the U.S. response would be to your plans?

[A] Jumblatt: You'll have to ask the next President--maybe Hart? I think we are free to choose our own system. It's not going to be like the Nicaraguan or the Cuban model. But we are free to choose our own system. And it would not be the first socialist state in the Arab world. Syria is a socialist state, and so are Iraq, South Yemen, Algeria.

[Q] Playboy: You call Syria socialist; many others would call it totalitarian.

[A] Jumblatt: Maybe the Syrian regime is not very democratic, but Syria is going through a process of socialism. Big properties were confiscated some time ago; industrialization has started. I think it's time to respect what President Assad has done in Syria.

[Q] Playboy: How could you convince the Shi'ite Moslems that socialism is the best course?

[A] Jumblatt: They have two options: either to choose Islamic fundamentalism, which would lead to what Khomeini created in Iran, or to accept the fact that a new Lebanon is possible through socialism.

[Q] Playboy: Which of the warring parties in Lebanon agrees with the latter?

[A] Jumblatt: I'm the only one!

[Q] Playboy: How opposed are you to Islamic fundamentalism?

[A] Jumblatt: I don't like any kind of fundamentalism, be it Islamic or Christian. I despise it!

[Q] Playboy: We've come back to an interesting contradiction: On the one hand, you're seen as something of a fanatic leader, but on the other, your thinking is often very liberal. Would you say you've been influenced by liberal Western thought?

[A] Jumblatt: I was greatly influenced by that approach, yes. My father, too. My mother was born in Lausanne. I had a French governess. So we lived in a Western environment.

[Q] Playboy: Your mother was Swiss?

[A] Jumblatt: No. Lebanese. My grandfather was exiled by the French to Lausanne for 25 years. He was profoundly against the French mandate in Lebanon after World War One. He called for Islamic unity in the Arab world. There were two schools of thought at the time: Arab unity and Islamic unity. He was the great thinker on Islamic unity.

[Q] Playboy: Your father was supposedly killed by Pierre Gemayel, the patriarch of his family and the father of the man with whom you're negotiating. Have you ever met him?

[A] Jumblatt: It is interesting that you ask that. Today, for the first time, we shook hands. I decided to do it, to go up to him in this hotel. He was very surprised, very shocked. After all, why should I hate him? Why should I always be entangled by feelings of hatred?

[Q] Playboy: We're confused. Is he or is he not the man who killed your father?

[A] Jumblatt: No! Pierre Gemayel? No!

[Q] Playboy: It's part of the unofficial history of your region that Pierre Gemayel ordered the killing, is it not?

[A] Jumblatt: Somebody else. Somebody in the Phalange may have known about it, but not, to my knowledge, Pierre Gemayel.

[Q] Playboy: Then perhaps there isn't so much reason to despise the Gemayels.

[A] Jumblatt: Yes, there is. I despised the first son, Bashir [the first Gemayel elected president, assassinated on September 14, 1982], far more than the brother who is now president. I disliked him because of his bloody past. I despise the Gemayels because they are responsible for so many killings. It started a long time ago, and it hasn't finished.

[Q] Playboy: Are you saying the feud exists simply because the Gemayels are a bloody, ruthless family?

[A] Jumblatt: Who is not bloody and ruthless in Lebanon? Who is not? Everybody in his way is bloody, ruthless. We are all ruthless; everybody is a war lord! Who is not responsible for crimes and destruction? Ultimately, the parties most responsible are the superpowers. Only when you have a settlement between the two superpowers can you reach a just settlement in Lebanon.

[Q] Playboy: You've moved rather suddenly from family blood feuds to superpower regulations----

[A] Jumblatt: Well, you know better than I that you can't separate the problems of Lebanon from the problems of the rest of the Middle East.

[Q] Playboy: Can't that just be an excuse to go on killing one another?

[A] Jumblatt: After all, we are being helped by somebody. We are being supplied with money and ammunition by somebody.

[Q] Playboy: From whom do you get your money?

[A] Jumblatt: At one time, the Libyans supplied me. But now they have decided to cut me off. I have to find another country.

[Q] Playboy: You have to go shopping for another country to give you money?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes, I have to go shopping.

[Q] Playboy: You won't be able to continue your fight if you run out of money, will you?

[A] Jumblatt: I'm afraid not. Nowadays, I'm a little bit embarrassed, squeezed for money to maintain my troops.

[Q] Playboy: Do your opponents, the Christians, know that?

[A] Jumblatt: Not yet, but I don't care.

[Q] Playboy: You're keeping that a secret from them during these negotiations, aren't you?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. I have to for the time being. It would be good if we found even a temporary solution so my part of Lebanon could be rebuilt. If we find a compromise, we can have some rest for a while.

[Q] Playboy: But if you get aid, will you start all over again?

[A] Jumblatt: I do not want to. I think we have had enough killing. It is more than enough. It would affect terribly the youngsters of our country. These soldiers who are bearing arms in the trenches should learn something else.

[Q] Playboy: It's been reported that some of your Druse fighters are as young as ten. Is that true?

[A] Jumblatt: That's true. That's why we have to teach them something else.

[Q] Playboy: There were also rumors that some Soviets had joined your soldiers in the fighting. Any truth to those rumors?

[A] Jumblatt: No. I don't need Soviets--or Iranians or anybody else--to fight. I have my own people. They fight well. It's enough.

[Q] Playboy: When you talk about the children who fight for you or your personal prospects, we notice you have a terse, flat way of responding to emotional issues. Have you always been so controlled?

[A] Jumblatt: I don't like to talk too much. In politics, I've found it's better to listen.

[Q] Playboy: We had more in mind an attitude of resignation, almost fatalism.

[A] Jumblatt: Fatalism will give you freedom. If you resign yourself to destiny, you free yourself to live better. Since we will all die tomorrow--or next week--let's live and have fun.

[Q] Playboy: Are you saying, then, that there's nothing much to do and nothing really matters?

[A] Jumblatt: There were moments when I thought the world could be changed. Now I think that's impossible.

[Q] Playboy: Because of the imperfectibility of man?

[A] Jumblatt: Yes. Even music nowadays is bestial--rock music. Its deepest aspect is animalistic. It doesn't lead you to refinement. Rock music is terribly violent.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think the nature of man can be changed?

[A] Jumblatt: You can refine bestial nature, somehow, through science. But science is inhuman. After all, science for the sake of science provided the nuclear bomb.

[Q] Playboy: It's interesting that you're concerned about nuclear weapons when you're trying to blow yourselves up in Lebanon.

[A] Jumblatt: The nuclear build-up is different. I'm afraid that some fool somewhere will press the button and everybody will be destroyed. I think we are headed for a nuclear holocaust.

[Q] Playboy: Does one, therefore, give up?

[A] Jumblatt: No! Because we are living, we have to live. We have to do our duties. But what will happen will happen, especially at the end of this century. It's frightful, and I'm scared.

[Q] Playboy: But you believe in reincarnation; how can dying be so frightening to you?

[A] Jumblatt: I also believe in cycles in this universe. Maybe we are coming to the end of the cycle--the complete cycle, perhaps.

[Q] Playboy: Do you mean you think the world is coming to an end?

[A] Jumblatt: I think it's time for the world to come to an end, because this world has no sense of existence nowadays.

[Q] Playboy: Then what do you think people need to do?

[A] Jumblatt: We have to wait. I'm not the one who's going to decide to press the button first. I don't have the button or the missiles.

[Q] Playboy: If nothing matters, as you seem to believe, how can you care what happens with these negotiations?

[A] Jumblatt: I'm also realistic and pragmatic. I'm concerned about my tribe and my children. Even if it doesn't matter to me, for them it matters. They are expecting something from me. I can't deceive them. That's why what I'm doing is not entirely rubbish--it is just to gain some time. There is no other way except to go live in a cave.

[Q] Playboy: You see no values anywhere?

[A] Jumblatt: Human dignity, at least. Maybe it's a value of the past, but it should be respected. You can offer some hope--and some help--to the poor people of this world.

[Q] Playboy: They are already suffering, but won't they suffer immensely more if your bleak vision of the future is correct?

[A] Jumblatt: There's a lot of misery and a lot of disproportion between the rich and the poor. This so-called civilization is without any human purpose. I think it would be better for everybody to end it. Maybe the next one will be better.

[Q] Playboy: With a pessimist's view such as yours, how can you believe there is a God?

[A] Jumblatt: Ah! There is a God, or a kind of universal justice. But I don't attach much importance to rituals, be they Christian or Moslem. I just think there should be some kind of universal rules or justice.

[Q] Playboy: Such as the Ten Commandments?

[A] Jumblatt: No. The Ten Commandments were too brief and restricted to one people. No, that's not enough.

[Q] Playboy: Tell us more about the mingling of your religion and your politics. You believe in both Islam and Plato's Republic. How can the two coexist?

[A] Jumblatt: We have two approaches to the world. In our social, or political, approach, we have to live, to adapt ourselves to the environment we live in. As for the religious, or philosophical, approach, that is something else. That is the concern of the individual.

[Q] Playboy: And so you, in effect, believe in persisting within a world you can't change?

[A] Jumblatt: We can't change it. We are just a small minority. We can't impose our will on others, because the world is also hostile. Many times throughout history, the Druse were persecuted by those around them. We are always under pressure. We are not part of orthodox Islam. It is this history of diversity, incidentally, that prevents Westerners from understanding this part of the world.

[Q] Playboy: How distorted is our picture of the Arabs and why is there distortion?

[A] Jumblatt: You in the States cannot accept the fact that Arabs have rights. You see the Arabs only through your friends in the Arab world. You have friends there; some are nice, but some are not so nice.

[Q] Playboy: What responsibility do you think America has for making sure Arabs have their rights?

[A] Jumblatt: As Arabs, we have made the big mistake of begging you for our rights. Nobody will give you your rights if you beg. You have to get them. But some people in the Arab world always beg for their rights, which is stupid.

[Q] Playboy: To which Arab states are you referring?

[A] Jumblatt: The so-called moderates. Egypt. Under Nasser, Egypt was all right, but not now. Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are terribly, terribly influenced by the United States. King Hussein of Jordan is a nice chap, but he has a weak kingdom.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think Hussein will fall?

[A] Jumblatt: No. He has a strong regime and is doing his best for his people; it is economically that he is very weak.

[Q] Playboy: You've conspicuously omitted Syria. What is its relation to the U.S.?

[A] Jumblatt: I told you it is possible to go two ways: Either you get your rights by begging or you assert yourself. Syria has asserted itself, which is good. That doesn't mean that Syria is anti-American.

[Q] Playboy: The regime there has demonstrated some dramatic anti-American sentiment recently, wouldn't you agree?

[A] Jumblatt: That is because the Americans have demonstrated quite a lot of hostility and brutality toward the Syrians.

[Q] Playboy: That's open to question. The hostility against the U.S. in certain Arab states seems deeply rooted. Why do you think the anti-Americanism persists?

[A] Jumblatt: The basic issue is still the Palestinian one. America is a superpower; it's just protecting its own interests. It doesn't really care about other people and nations. Other people sense that.

[Q] Playboy: Isn't the issue more basic, more practical? Doesn't it come down to American involvement with the economics of the region--to oil?

[A] Jumblatt: To what extent are the States dependent on the oil of the Middle East? What do we Arabs get back from the sale of that oil? Some millions of dollars to be spent stupidly in the desert. Or on certain castles. Or Swiss bank accounts. Or in American investments.

[Q] Playboy: Many Westerners are accustomed to the stereotype of the wealthy Arab loaded with petrodollars. You obviously see it differently.

[A] Jumblatt: We Arabs have a small minority with money. The rest of us are desperately poor--not to say dying of hunger. Look at Egypt, at the Sudan.

[Q] Playboy: So from your point of view, American policy in the Middle East has been misdirected?

[A] Jumblatt: Up till now, yes, because you are not able to understand our society and you don't have a consistent policy for Lebanon or the rest of the Middle East. You change from election to election.

[Q] Playboy: Could anything have been done to turn the tide after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon? If Americans had occupied the Shuf Mountains--your part of Lebanon--right after the Israeli pull-out, could there have been peace?

[A] Jumblatt: I don't think so. It would have been too late. When the Israelis withdrew, tension between us and the Phalangists was very high. And now there are no more Phalangists in the Shuf.

[Q] Playboy: Did you have any idea that the invasion would take place?

[A] Jumblatt: We were expecting it. I was in the States in February 1982, and Phil Habib told me not to play with fire. He said that if the Palestinians did anything in the south, Israel would invade.

[Q] Playboy: You're saying that you were tipped off by Habib in Washington?

[A] Jumblatt: We were not expecting such a large-scale invasion. We thought it would be limited to the south--not to the whole of Lebanon; not to Mount Lebanon or West Beirut.

[Q] Playboy: Briefly, what changes have to be made in Lebanon to achieve peace?

[A] Jumblatt: The basic thing in Lebanon is to achieve an acceptable political compromise whereby everybody feels he has full rights and obligations. The big problem of the Lebanese is that one minority--the Maronites--has all the power.

[Q] Playboy: What do you Druse want?

[A] Jumblatt: We want to share power with the Maronites. They want absolute power in all fields--economic, military, political. We would be glad to share power through a compromise--not a bloody one.

[Q] Playboy: And if you cannot compromise?

[A] Jumblatt: If we, as Lebanese, are unable to settle our internal problems peacefully, Lebanon will just disappear. It will just be swallowed up by the Syrians and by the Israelis.

[Q] Playboy: What is your final assessment?

[A] Jumblatt: What will happen will just be. But let's have dinner first.

[Twelve hours after this "Interview" was completed, Jumblatt walked out of the talks to return to Lebanon, saying to reporters, "Get your sandbags ready." The cease-fire ended and fighting in Lebanon continues.]

"If we, as Lebanese, are unable to settle our internal problems peacefully, Lebanon will just disappear."