20 Questions: Joel Hyatt

Joel Hyatt, at 34, is the Ray Kroc of law. Despite widespread criticism from his professional contemporaries, his low-cost Hyatt Legal Services chain (at the moment with 155 offices in 20 states) threatens not only to become the largest law firm of any kind in the world but to change America's ambivalent opinion of lawyers. His method: a slick national-television ad campaign (starring Joel Hyatt), storefront offices located in shopping centers with evening and weekend hours and extremely cheap rates. Bill Zehme caught up with Hyatt in Kansas City, Missouri, the firm's headquarters, and reports: "Hyatt is every bit as earnest as he seems in those commercials. He could probably be Wally and Beaver's other brother. In his office, visitors are greeted by a huge Andy Warhol lithograph of Justice Louis Brandeis, from the series 'Ten Great Jews of the 20th Century.' Hyatt swears that he often looks up from his desk and catches the legendary jurist winking at him."

1.

[Q] Playboy: Chief Justice Warren Burger believes that lawyers enjoy such low public esteem that they are near "the bottom of the barrel" because some advertise like used-car salesmen. How do you plead?

[A] Hyatt: Not guilty. He doesn't condemn lawyer advertising; he complains about lawyers who engage in advertising not up to the standards we, as a profession, should set. I don't know what Burger's standards are, but I doubt they're any higher than mine. My ads have been acclaimed even by staunch opponents of lawyer advertising, precisely because they dignify the profession, not demean it.

Lawyers have been held in very low regard for a long time in this country--indeed, for far longer than we've had the right to advertise. It's very important to point out that, while the Chief Justice has made it clear how essential it is for the profession to make legal services more widely available at a lower cost, he has ignored the critical link between having the ability to advertise and reaching that goal. Advertising creates competition and competition reduces the cost to consumers. Hyatt Legal Services is dramatic evidence of how to do that best, because we're doing it for more people than any other law firm in the country. And we couldn't do it without advertising.

2.

[Q] Playboy: Why are most Americans leery of lawyers?

[A] Hyatt: It didn't help when our country went through a period during which the President of the United States, the Attorney General and the special counsel to the President--all lawyers--were indicted and all but Nixon were convicted of violating laws. Lawyers have been perceived as protecting and enforcing the rights of the rich and powerful and as simply being unavailable and inapplicable to the rights and needs of middle-income people. Indeed, professional attempts to limit competition and oppose lawyer advertising are viewed by the public as being exactly what they are--cynical and greedy efforts to protect lawyers' turf rather than serve the people.

3.

[Q] Playboy: Give us your word on this: Would you trust a lawyer if your life depended on it?

[A] Hyatt: Yes. There are many honest, committed and talented lawyers whom I would trust if I were in serious trouble. That's not to say there aren't many lawyers whose talent and integrity don't inspire my confidence. The profession has never properly addressed its responsibility for self-regulation.

4.

[Q] Playboy: What really slows down justice?

[A] Hyatt: Several things. Until the advent of lower-cost delivery of legal services, obtaining a lawyer was prohibitively expensive for most people. That meant that a person could not protect or enforce his rights. That's changing, but there's a lot more change necessary. First, we need to develop ways of resolving disputes without the legal system. There are many things--divorce, for one--that might be better done outside a courthouse.

5.

[Q] Playboy: Why haven't you hired John Houseman to do your ads?

[A] Hyatt: I don't think he'd do as good a job as I do. Actually, we couldn't afford John Houseman. Also, many states prohibit the use of actors in legal ads. In Ohio, where we started, for example, the law requires that only a lawyer in full-time practice with the firm appear as the spokesperson. I was the only one of the three cofounders of Hyatt Legal Services who could practice law in Ohio. So, by default, I became the spokesperson. Most people thought that it was because of my large ego, but, in fact, it was legally mandated. Now that my wife, Suzi, has become a full partner, people keep suggesting that she do the ads. She would do a great job. But I'm not sure that my ego could withstand the increase in business that would result.

6.

[Q] Playboy: Here's a literary question. Give Shakespeare an assist: What would be the most efficient way to "kill all the lawyers"?

[A] Hyatt: Require them to keep silent for a week.

7.

[Q] Playboy: You're the pre-eminent attorney of the TV age; what's your assessment: Did Perry Mason ever have competition?

[A] Hyatt: No. Perry Mason will always stand alone. I loved that show. Then, unfortunately, I went to law school and learned that everything in Perry Mason's courtroom is unrealistic. He asks witnesses questions that are totally improper and would never be permitted in any court. He always solves the case by capturing the person who really committed the crime--who just so happens to be sitting in the courtroom. It's a wonderful show that, if anything, exacerbates the lack of information people have about our legal system.

The recent Paul Newman film The Verdict was actually more relevant to important issues facing the legal profession: the need for quality standards, the role that powerful institutions can play, the incompetence of some judges. But the movie went to extremes. For example, it wasn't necessary to have Newman be a lawyer with only one client to prove he was struggling. There are, unfortunately, many struggling lawyers who make the kind of improper ethical judgments he made. But there are very few lawyers who are as sad and pathetic as he was, and by carrying the characterization too far, the movie lost credibility.

8.

[Q] Playboy: Lawyers are always tossing around Latin terms. Do you guys really know what that stuff means? That is, when is a corpus delicti?

[A] Hyatt: I used to refer to the women I wanted to date in college as corpus delicti. In truth, I don't know what many of those terms and phrases mean. The arcane and unique language that lawyers insist upon using is an attempt to keep themselves on a pedestal. They try to enshroud the law in a big mystery so that the public feels that it needs lawyers to explain what seems to be so (continued on page 184)Joel Hyatt(continued from page 121) inexplicable. Lawyers maintain the mystery in order to keep their very special place in society and keep their fees high.

A lot of law language is nonsense. I have seen legal documents that have provoked me--as a lawyer--to challenge the author to explain. Often, the author cannot explain the meaning except to say, "Well, that paragraph's always in the document." What a lousy reason. Our firm is demystifying the law and trying to use understandable, everyday language.

9.

[Q] Playboy: What's most lacking in a lawyer's education?

[A] Hyatt: Anything to do with the practice of law. Law schools teach the law. You learn nothing about how to build a law practice or how to deal with clients, and those are the two critical elements in delivering legal services. Law schools are unwilling to involve themselves in those issues, because they are not viewed as scholarly matters.

10.

[Q] Playboy: You were an undergrad at Dartmouth, which is famous for its wild weekends. How indefensible was your behavior during all that revelry?

[A] Hyatt: I am pleased to tell you that almost every weekend at Dartmouth is a wild one. There are many institutionalized blowouts, such as Winter Carnival and Green Key Weekend, but those are simply formalized justifications for typical weekends. As for my behavior, I plead the Fifth Amendment: Answering might incriminate me.

11.

[Q] Playboy: Many attorneys marry their jobs; you married your partner. Do you recommend the strategy?

[A] Hyatt: Well, first, let me point out that I married Suzi before she was my partner, so to speak. But we have worked together for a long time. Her father is Democratic U.S. Senator Howard Metzenbaum of Ohio. When I graduated from Yale Law School, I came home to Cleveland and was campaign director for his successful bid for the Senate. Suzi and I ran that campaign together. So, while I don't make lifestyle recommendations to others, working together has been extremely rewarding for us.

12.

[Q] Playboy: It's no secret to those around you that you harbor political aspirations. Dare we elect one more lawyer to public office?

[A] Hyatt: An interesting question. There are too many lawyers in government. But you've got to be careful in indicting them. Some of the great contributions made in government have been made by lawyers. It's very natural for lawyers to become involved in public service at some point in their careers, and I do hope one day to add a public-service component to mine. It's important, however, that we have in government people whose previous experience is wide-ranging and certainly not limited to the practice of law. And were I to enter government, I would be bringing a lot more to it than just my being a lawyer.

13.

[Q] Playboy: Describe your briefs.

[A] Hyatt: My professional briefs are characterized by being stark, with very clear, concise and erudite black stenciling. My personal briefs are, by virtue of their being personal, known only to those who enter my private life.

14.

[Q] Playboy: This is no reflection on your last response, but why aren't lawyers funnier?

[A] Hyatt: That is a reflection on my last response. Unfortunately, a lawyer's training places a very low premium on humor and a very high premium on stuffiness. Lawyers are trained to be cautious, conservative and concerned about decorum at all times. Having said that, I think it's a bad rap. There are lots of lawyers who are lots of fun. Gee, I hope you don't run those two questions in a row.

15.

[Q] Playboy: We wouldn't think of it. What are the things most Americans don't know about the law?

[A] Hyatt: The list would be so long. You can start with the most basic example: Most Americans die without a will. They do so despite the very tragic consequences that can befall their loved ones. In most states, there's a statute that determines exactly how your property must be divided when you die without a will. A person can obtain a will at a very low cost, at very little inconvenience, yet most Americans don't. They do not have very basic information about areas of the law that exist only to serve them.

16.

[Q] Playboy: Why do judges still have those little hammers?

[A] Hyatt: A lot of what goes on in their courtrooms is very boring, and once in a while a judge bangs that thing to wake himself up. It's a tradition worth continuing. I see nothing pernicious about the hammers.

17.

[Q] Playboy: Does anyone actually get away with murder?

[A] Hyatt: Yes. No lawyer would argue that all people who are guilty of crimes are convicted. There are sometimes very important constitutional reasons that people who are guilty are not convicted; and sometimes, there are people who benefit from excellent lawyering. Protections exist to benefit the innocent. When someone who's guilty of a crime is prosecuted by virtue of evidence obtained illegally, our societal concern is really not with that individual. The point is to protect the guarantees of the system that apply to all of us. Democracy is a very fragile form of government.

18.

[Q] Playboy: Your cheapest divorce rate is $275. What kind of deal could Johnny Carson get for that?

[A] Hyatt: First of all, I'd rather represent his wife, because she would be willing to pay the fees out of her settlement. But for $275, we wouldn't even represent Mrs. Carson. They did not have a no-fault divorce, for which that fee is applicable. Theirs was what's more commonly referred to as a humongous battle.

19.

[Q] Playboy: You were born Joel Hyatt Zylberberg. What's the real reason you dropped the last part--fear of anti-Semitism?

[A] Hyatt: It wasn't pronounceable--because it was spelled Z-Y-L. When I got out of law school, I just thought it would be more useful to have a name that was phonetic and pronounceable. At the time, I didn't have the slightest inkling about Hyatt Legal Services. Marketing strategy had nothing to do with it. It was my father, who is one of the very few members of his family to have survived the holocaust, who suggested I pick up my middle name. People who don't know me could surmise some reason relating to my religion that caused me to change my last name, but anyone who took a careful look at my commitment to Jewish issues and charitable involvements would know better.

20.

[Q] Playboy: Know any good lawyer jokes?

[A] Hyatt: I know many good lawyer jokes. Have you heard the one about the dying old man who decided that he could contradict the adage that you can't take it with you? He liquidated all of his assets and got $1,500,000 in cash. He called to his hospital bed his minister, his doctor and his lawyer. He told them, "I'm taking it with me. I worked hard for this, and I want to be buried with my cash. You're the three people closest to me; our relationships are based on trust. Here's what I'm asking you to do: I'm giving each of you $500,000 in cash. When I die, I want you to put the money into my casket just before they seal it up."

Well, he died shortly thereafter; and following the funeral, the minister, the doctor and the lawyer got together at a neighborhood bar for a couple of drinks. "I have to confess something," said the minister. "Our church has long needed renovation and a new residence for the minister and his family. I just knew our friend would understand this and would want to make a contribution, so I put $400,000 of the cash into the casket."

The doctor said, "Well, I'm really glad you had the courage to make that confession, because I must tell you that I've worked hard all my life, curing and healing people, but I haven't made the kind of money that I thought I would. I've wanted a vacation home and a motorboat for so long, and I knew our friend would not begrudge me those things. So I put $300,000 of the cash into the casket."

Well, it was the lawyer's turn, so he said to the minister and the doctor, "Gentlemen, I am appalled at your lack of integrity. I put my personal check for the entire $500,000 into the casket."

I'm sure the check was good; aren't you?

"There are too many lawyers in government. But you've got to be careful in indicting them."