Playboy Interview: Bryant Gumbel

Bryant Gumbel began the day as he had done for the past four years, leaving home before dawn, riding in a company car through the barren city streets to a midtown skyscraper. As always, he was dressed impeccably: Robert Stock suit, monogrammed cuffs, matching tie and socks. And under his arm, as he rode the elevator to his third-floor office, a sheaf of precisely penned notes--homework, he called it--encapsulating the lives of the people he would interview in America's bedrooms and living rooms that day, as he'd done the day before and would do again the next day. But he wasn't complaining. It wasn't as tough as when he'd started, saddled with poor ratings and suggestions that he wasn't the man for the job. No way. Now the "Today" show was on top, everyone was his friend, he was well paid and, most important, happy. As he walked down the long hall to the make-up room, one could hear him humming contentedly, "Purple rain, purple rain...."

After the show, Gumbel posed with Jane Pauley and Willard Scott for promotional photos hyping an upcoming show to be broadcast from abroad. Then there were business calls, a quickie interview, plans for playing golf in new and exotic locations and a call from his wife. At noon, he left the office and was driven to the Carlyle hotel to tape a three-part interview with the band Genesis.

Then he was in the car again, being whisked back to the office. Another three-hour session for his "Playboy Interview" would complete the day. The pace surely made the anticipation of leaning back in his big office chair, talking about himself, seem positively relaxing. But Gumbel showed few signs of fatigue. In fact, he was downright lively, wondering if success had spoiled Eddie Murphy and Joe Piscopo, declaring his dislike for high-top tennis shoes on women and wanting to talk about all-time favorite albums. His, of course, is "Purple Rain." But he also declared a fondness for Jerry Butler's "Spice of Life," Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin' On" and the Moody Blues' "Days of Future Passed." And he intoned lyrics from the last with a familiar gravity to prove it.

" 'Breathe deep the gathering gloom. Watch lights fade from every room. Bed-sitter people look back and....' "

Suddenly, Gumbel stopped and chuckled self-consciously. After all, there he was, the intelligent, comforting, probing, nimble host of the "Today" show, being chauffeured down Fifth Avenue on a blazing summer afternoon, reciting pop poetry from the Sixties.

But the whimsical moment simply revealed an off-camera personality that would surprise more than a few early risers--because, one soon discovers, with Bryant Gumbel, what you see on TV is not all you get.

What you do see is someone who, on a typical day, can handle interviews that range from Lena Home and her author daughter, Gail Buckley, to Meese-commission spokesman Alan Sears, from starlet Janet Jones to Senator Bob Packwood and Representative Dan Rostenkowski. And then banter with Scott, discuss a movie with Gene Shalit and talk offhandedly with several contributing reporters about their stories.

Gumbel handles his on-camera chores with such finesse and conscientiousness that it's no mystery why his co-workers have fondly nicknamed him Mr. Television. Or why he and Pauley were, in 1986, named Broadcasters of the Year by the International Radio and Television Society.

Not bad for a self-described smart-aleck Creole kid from Chicago via New Orleans who claims he had little self-confidence while growing up, simply because he was darker than his light-skinned relatives. The son of a probate judge whom he idolized and the second of four children, Bryant Charles Gumbel was born on September 29, 1948. He was raised in the Hyde Park section of Chicago, an integrated community quite unlike the rest of the city that contained it.

But attending Bates College in Maine during the heyday of black pride changed Gumbel's self-perception. He emerged as self-confident, aggressive and eager to compete. At first, he sold cardboard cartons in Manhattan. Then he tried unemployment, followed by writing for Black Sports magazine. But. his career didn't get started until 1972, when he so impressed KNBC in Burbank that it gave him a weekend sports anchor job--on the spot. His audition was simply better than some of the station's current personalities' on-the-air performances.

By 1976, Gumbel was KNBC's sports director. At the same time, he broke into the network ranks and, with his watch-my-dust attitude, got himself noticed. Soon he was hosting the N.F.L. pregame show, weekend baseball, the world series and N.C.A.A. basketball. Before long, he became NBC's national sports anchor. A prime-time sports show, "Games People Play," followed, as well as thrice-weekly contributions to "Today."

In spite of such success, the tapping of Gumbel in 1981 to replace Tom Brokaw on the "Today" show caused problems. It wasn't because Gumbel was black--though some concern about that was voiced. Most doubts were based on his sports background. According to some executives at NBC News, only "real" journalists merited the morning anchor job.

But Gumbel, who'd traded an audience of 80,000,000 for one of 8,000,000 when he joined the sometimes second-, sometimes third-place "Today" show, proved unflappable. Almost immediately, the press confronted him with a new problem--his relationship with senior "Today" show member Pauley. The fact that she had been passed over for the top anchor spot spurred rumors of dissension and hurt feelings. She and Gumbel largely deny them. As if that weren't enough, the "Today" show's poor ratings for the first 18 months after Gumbel's ascension put him squarely in the hot seat. But he hung in, helped greatly by the support of his "Today" show producer and friend, Steve Friedman. Then a news writer, Friedman had been present at Gumbel's 1972 KNBC audition. And he'd remembered him nine years later, when Brokaw announced his departure.

Since then, Gumbel's (and the show's) popularity has grown. Today, no one denigrates his sports origins, he and Pauley are obviously pals and the show is on top most days--with no signs of falling off.

We sent Contributing Editor David Rensin to New York to spend a week with Gumbel and capture the man some have called a "television animal" at the current peak of his career. Says Rensin:

"Bryant Gumbel thinks a lot of himself. And considering his track record, it's no wonder. So it was refreshing to discover, when we met and I outlined the time demands of our upcoming sessions, that he was surprised that we actually wanted him for a 'Playboy Interview.' He'd done something--and gotten somewhere--with his life that most young men only fantasize about. In a business full of false modesty, Gumbel's surprise sounded genuine and was nice to hear. I left him the weekend to adjust to the idea.

"We talked every day in his 'Today' show corner office. Gumbel drank ice water and smoked a big cigar and occasionally propped his feet up on the desk--though he never loosened, his tie. The surroundings were like scrapbook pages from Gumbel's life. Photos of his wife, June, children Bradley, seven, and Jillian, three, his Westchester home and Gumbel pondering a putt adorn one wall. Another wall is all bookcase, stuffed with hardcovers, golf manuals and scattered Teddy bears. There's also a computer terminal, a rack of hats, golf knickknacks, a couch on which he never sat and a gum-ball machine.

"Although he sometimes joked about the hours involved and reported that co-workers had mentioned his more-tired-than-usual look, Gumbel was as fine an interview subject as I've encountered in some time. I soon discovered what Friedman meant when he said, 'Bryant will tell you what he feels and thinks about the people he knows, and his candor will probably surprise you. He's a man sustained by his beliefs.' Gumbel answered queries thoughtfully, often passionately.

"Thinking about the interview in retrospect, I can't help feeling that Gumbel wears a mask that few are allowed to pierce. It's not intended to dissemble. It does not hide dirty laundry. In fact, it seems more a shield for the inner man, who, if given a choice, would rather be on the golf course or at home watching sports than speaking for the public record. But he musters his intelligence and honesty and plunges right in. When Gumbel has agreed to do something, he simply does it.

"This trouper mentality could not have been better demonstrated than during a follow-up phone conversation when Gumbel was interrupted with another call. He came back on the line and said there was a family crisis and he'd call back. A half hour later, the phone rang. I asked if everything was OK. 'Frankly, no,' said Gumbel. 'My father-in-law just had a heart attack.' I immediately offered to postpone our talk indefinitely. 'No,' he said, 'I've calmed down my wife and her dad's in good hands. There's nothing else I can do. Let's finish this.' "

[Q] Playboy: Let's start with what time----

[A] Gumbel: Four A.M. [Smiles] It's the most-often-asked question--which says a lot about morning television.

[Q] Playboy: How do you cope with the hours?

[A] Gumbel: Assuming that I do? Most people believe it's a tougher grind than it is. They dread getting up. The fact that I'm already at work when they're barely dressed fascinates them. But when I took the job, I promised I would never gripe about the hours. Many people get up very early to do their jobs--and often for a lot less money than I make. So the last thing they need is to read about me bitching and moaning.

[Q] Playboy: Especially with your show and your network's being number one. Did you have a game plan for success?

[A] Gumbel: I've never had this goddamn thing laid out. I have never been the kind of guy who's said what he wanted ultimately. In fact, it kind of upsets me when I read this crap about someone in our business answering the question "When did you realize you wanted to be a journalist?" with something like, "Even in the crib, I could see this was what I intended to do." What happens is part accident, part being good, part finding what is right for you. It's taking advantage of opportunities. It's luck. But the minute you say luck, people think you don't deserve the success you've gotten. That's bullcrap. Luck comes in realizing you have the talent and in getting the chance to show that talent.

[Q] Playboy: Well, then, is success what you thought it would be like?

[A] Gumbel: Boy! That's a question I've never been asked. It's ... a lot more complicated than I expected. When I was younger, I always equated success with money, material things and a certain sense of ease about life. But I didn't envision the tough decisions. I do confess to a glint of a self-satisfied smile sometimes when I am sitting in the back of a limo heading for a first-class flight to a place where people are anxiously awaiting my arrival in order to show me a first-class time. It's a very heady life. Yes, that's what I thought it would be--but without complications.

[Q] Playboy: What are some of them?

[A] Gumbel: Oh, hell, everything from never finding enough time in the schedule to trying to walk down the street and be normal to worrying about an interview like this to opening a newspaper and reading that somebody thinks you suck.

[Q] Playboy: We'll get to what people say about you; but first, as someone who's used to asking the questions, why do you worry about answering them?

[A] Gumbel: I feel self-conscious. Somehow, what I do always seems less important to me than it does to others. It's like being with your relatives at Thanksgiving and you're the only one who is in the glamor world; all anyone wants to talk about is what you do. After a while, you feel like, God, let me out of here.

Also, I don't want to be part of the celebrity sweepstakes. I don't want to be like people who play it for all it's worth: Cher, who's always pumping whatever her latest thought is; Sylvester Stallone, trying to convince people that the stuff he's putting out is art. It's getting way out of hand. It's reached such extremes in this country that it's embarrassing to be included. I like to think of myself as above the fray.

[Q] Playboy: If you're above the fray, how do you stomach the incessant hype that's peddled on your program?

[A] Gumbel: I understand; we are guilty. That doesn't mean I have to like it. [Pauses] If television has one enormous challenge in the years ahead, it's going to be separating worth from celebrity. I'm not one of those guys who say all we ought to watch is public TV. I just wonder what viewers think when four minutes of Bob Packwood and Dan Rostenkowski talking about tax reform is followed by four minutes of Jane Fonda talking about her workout book. Because we have allotted them equal time, does the audience view them as being of equal importance?

[Q] Playboy: Do you usually give this much thought this early in the day to the philosophy of television?

[A] Gumbel: No. Generally, I'm too busy to worry about it.

[Q] Playboy: When do you worry about it?

[A] Gumbel: When I'm on vacation and watching what everyone else watches.

[Q] Playboy: Do you watch the Today show when you're not on?

[A] Gumbel: Sometimes. I usually feel that there's too much talk, too much script. But I don't get up at seven A.M. and watch like a hawk, like most people. I've never been a morning-show person.

[Q] Playboy: Do you keep your eye on the competition?

[A] Gumbel: Never watch them.

[Q] Playboy: Really? Not even tape them for later viewing?

[A] Gumbel: Never. Taping someone and then trying to learn from his show or criticize it or counter his moves just isn't my bag. Let me add that I don't tape myself, either.

[Q] Playboy: Why don't you watch the other morning shows?

[A] Gumbel: A couple of reasons. In 1970, when I was selling paper cartons, one of the things I learned was not to worry about the other guy's product--just make yours as good as possible and sell it. That's always stuck. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but frankly, I don't give a damn about what David Hartman does.

[Q] Playboy: Have you ever met Hartman?

[A] Gumbel: Yes.

[Q] Playboy: And?

[A] Gumbel: He's tall. [Smiles] We first met in L.A. when I was doing sports. He liked being around sporting events. We run into each other now and then in airports and at various functions. He's always very cordial. I wouldn't expect otherwise. But our exchanges are brief, and we have never sat down and talked about this business.

[Q] Playboy: Does that seem unusual?

[A] Gumbel: I don't know what purpose it would serve--though I probably would have had the answer when he was winning. Now that he's losing, I haven't changed my opinion.

[Q] Playboy:Today show producer Steve Friedman says Hartman goes nuts when the rating's slip. How about you?

[A] Gumbel: I let Steve go nuts. I'm not nearly as volatile as has been rumored. My quick fuse has more to do with my own performance. Blowing up about the ratings? Naw. Slips have caused me sadness and, when they were really bad, slight depression. The ratings are more important to the network, the people who sell the time.

[Q] Playboy: Come on. Are you really that detached?

[A] Gumbel: I'd be a fool to say I don't care at all. It's hard not to take it personally. If we're going to keep score, I'd rather finish first. But I don't live every day for destroying Good Morning America. I'm not a big believer in the Nielsen's being able to gauge what's good--or, more exactly, to draw a correlation between what's good and what works.

[Q] Playboy: But Friedman takes it more seriously, doesn't he? It sounds as though he truly hates Hartman.

[A] Gumbel: I don't think he hates David. He hates this amorphous thing called Good Morning America. Because when they were winning, they said some really stupid things. It's no secret that when the folks at ABC used to beat our brains out, we'd say it was tough to finish first in the morning when we'd been finishing last the night before for eight years, and they'd say, "Ah, you guys are garbage. That's an alibi."

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, all we hear from them is "It's tough for us to win, because the network is having some bad prime-time problems." But we allow them that, because it's true. You don't exist as an island in this business. You'd love to be like Bill Cosby. Put him on PBS and he'd still win. But few programs are like that, and certainly not news programs.

Good Morning America was arrogant in the extreme, much as a lot of ABC was. I believe there's a feeling within this industry of respect between CBS and NBC, even a certain amount of affection. But both kind of dislike ABC. You see a lot of people moving between NBC and CBS. But ABC? Don't like 'em.

[Q] Playboy: Some might say that aggressiveness is what made ABC overtake you a few years ago and sparked your show.

[A] Gumbel: May well be. Not only were they the bad kid on the block, the bigmouth kid, but they were also winning. [He pauses and gazes out his office window, overlooking the Rockefeller Center skating rink] See her in the white T-shirt, standing by the stairs?

[Q] Playboy: Near the guy with the camera?

[A] Gumbel: Next to the group at the top of the stairs. See her pointing, moving away? [Smiles] I wish I could watch all day.

[Q] Playboy: We get the impression that you're bored with the ratings race.

[A] Gumbel: Yeah. I say that as a winner. I've said it as a loser. More importance is attached than it merits. And what's worse is that it's not viewed just as the Today show versus Good Morning America but as Bryant Gumbel versus David Hartman. That's just not fair. I didn't want all the blame when they were winning and I don't want all the credit now that we are. Life doesn't work that way.

[Q] Playboy: Do you get an honest day's pay for an honest day's work?

[A] Gumbel: NBC pays me a salary they believe proportionate to my worth in the market place--and the dollar value I'm capable of bringing to the network. Am I overpaid? Yes. Do I make the going rate for someone in my position? Yes. Am I going to apologize for that? No.

[Q] Playboy: How would you characterize what your show does? What's its job description?

[A] Gumbel: As a writer once said, it's supposed to "gently inform a waiting America." That's partly true. Our job is, foremost, to tell people what happened in the world after they went to sleep. A guy wants to know if he should go to work today. If the bomb dropped, he can stay at home. Secondly, since we're engaged in trying to get an audience, we have to entertain to some degree. Around here, we always think in terms of giving food for conversation. Much of our lives is spent engaged in small talk. So we try to give people things they can use. None of it is a life-and-death matter, just the stuff of general conversation.

[Q] Playboy: Sort of like fast food?

[A] Gumbel: I wouldn't necessarily characterize it that way. Some of it is terribly disposable. Some is gourmet variety.

[Q] Playboy: What do you think is the greatest fault of the morning shows?

[A] Gumbel: A tendency toward sameness, routinization. If it worked yesterday, that's good enough reason to do it tomorrow. But I could probably say the same thing of most of television. By its very nature, it is more imitative than creative.

There are limits to how creative you can be in the morning. We may want to spice things up, but what can we do--fake the news? We've always been a news/information/entertainment show, and that isn't going to change. We're not performing brain surgery. We're just privy to information we're trying to get across to individuals on the other side of the camera.

[Q] Playboy: You were once NBC's main sports host. You'd anchored the N.F.L. pregame show since 1977; you'd had your own sports/variety show, done the world series. You had an audience of 80,000,000. Why did you trade that for an audience of 8,000,000?

[A] Gumbel: I know I had a good thing going. I was good at what I did and enjoyed it. I don't want to sound as though I'm patting myself on the back, but doing sports wasn't hard for me. I'd become comfortable. I'd reached the point where I could roll out of bed, go into the studio and do my show from front to back, without a hitch, as smooth as could be. But I always found myself thinking that I could do a little better, challenge myself. I decided to try something new. But I had reservations up to the time I took the job.

[Q] Playboy: For instance?

[A] Gumbel: The show had been on the air for 30 years, and the host had read the news for a grand total of two. Tom Brokaw, who was leaving, had done it in an attempt to take advantage of what he did best. But the show I envisioned was going to be drastically different. I wasn't going to read the news; we were going to be an awful lot looser. But because I happened to be the guy who followed Brokaw, my reluctance was perceived negatively. Everyone wanted me to back-step and admit I just couldn't do it. Friedman and I had many conversations about it. I don't think he was hung up about my approach, but he was fighting his own wars with the news-division hierarchy--a different regime from the one that exists today--who were saying, "Hey, he's a sports guy. Why are you even talking?" Then, "All right, put him on the air and we'll take a look."

[Q] Playboy: Why didn't you want to read the news?

[A] Gumbel: I just didn't think it was important. If anything, it compromised the host's role. He's the one running the show, trying to communicate with the audience on a person-to-person basis. He's not this authoritarian figure telling you that 58 people died in a plane crash. But trying to tell people that was like beating my head against the wall.

[Q] Playboy: Were you worried about being compared with Brokaw, as Dan Rather was when he followed Walter Cronkite?

[A] Gumbel: To think that is to suggest that when Tom left the Today show, it was so dominant in the ratings that it had to be a concern. The numbers don't bear that out. But I think Friedman knew, in any case, that in me he was getting a different kind of person and that he'd be a fool to try to make me play Tom's game.

[Q] Playboy: You had a hard time being accepted by both the NBC News people and the critics, didn't you?

[A] Gumbel: If you believe the stories that have come out since our success, everyone's original attitude, even in the news division, was "Hey, wonderful, terrific, outstanding! We knew this would happen." That's bullshit, OK? On the other hand, it was bothersome to have every article begin with and center on "former sportscaster Bryant Gumbel." Senator Bill Bradley's staff makes a joke about that kind of thing. They say that 30 years from now, when Bill is President and he meets a Soviet leader at a summit conference, they will begin the introductions with "Former Knicks star Bill Bradley...." That's how I feel. And, to a certain extent, I'm sure that I'm still viewed as an outsider, someone who, when this is all over, will go back to sports.

[Q] Playboy:Will you?

[A] Gumbel: I've never considered the possibility of returning if it became too tough. My pride wouldn't let me go scampering home with my tail between my legs, saying, "It didn't work out and please take me back."

[Q] Playboy: Yet Jane Pauley told us that "Bryant spits" on the idea of a conflict between sportscasting and so-called legitimate journalism. True?

[A] Gumbel: Yes. Who anointed some of these people? Take a guy from Chicago who sits in front of a TelePrompTer and reads news stories for four years and someone from the sports department who's in the field doing interviews and reporting, and tell me which one is the journalist. All I'm saying to people is stop telling me about what I used to do, judging what I can't do, and take a look at the damn program. Tell me if you like it. Period!

[Q] Playboy: When you took the job, you were part of a triumvirate with Pauley in New York and Chris Wallace in Washington----

[A] Gumbel: But I think very few of us knew that arrangement wasn't going to work. We realized there'd eventually be a shakedown and how it would end up.

[Q] Playboy: If the outcome was expected to favor you, then why was Wallace around at all? Do you think he was a sop to the news hierarchy to make your transition into the show easier?

[A] Gumbel: Let me say instead that he was more acceptable to the news organization.

[Q] Playboy: Why do you think the triumvirate couldn't have worked?

[A] Gumbel: How many answers would you like? You can't have three equals. To use a sports analogy, a football team may have four stars in the backfield, but comes time to call the play, only one can call it--and the same one should do it all the time. It doesn't mean the quarterback is the best athlete--just that for the good of everybody, only one person can be in charge. You can't run it like a democracy.

Television programs have to have someone perceived to be in charge--someone the audience can relate to, who is their focal point for understanding when things begin and end and in which direction they're going. Also, since our show is one for many tastes and interests, there must be some rhyme or reason to who is doing what. The triumvirate sent out lots of mixed messages, and by reducing it, we simplified things for the audience.

[Q] Playboy: Aren't you underestimating your audience?

[A] Gumbel: No. We simplified because it's tough to talk about the Today show without talking about the morning itself. We are so linked to the vulnerabilities of that time period. You're not into your day, ready for life's complications. You don't want to play guessing games. But, yeah, it was frustrating waiting for that period to be over and reading about what a terrible choice I was when the choice was finally made. Patience is not one of my virtues. And it bothered me that while we were playing this game, there was only one person on the hot seat: yours truly.

[Q] Playboy: Were you nervous at first?

[A] Gumbel: The first day was January 4, 1982. New Year's Day, I did the Tournament of Roses Parade, then flew all day to get to Miami. Next day, I did the overtime game between the Dolphins and the Chargers. I stayed into the night, trying to get the story of that game, then hopped a Learjet to Cincinnati, spent the night there and in the morning went to the stadium for the Bengals game. Afterward, I flew to New York, studied for my first Today show on the plane and went in and did it. I think I also had a special that weekend. On Tuesday, I got a telegram from Grant Tinker [then chairman of NBC] thanking me for taking care of his network. [Exhales]

I wasn't nervous, but I was concerned about what I would say the first time up. By then, everyone had spent more words than it was worth having an opinion about me. So I just said, "Good morning. I'm Bryant Gumbel, and I'll resist the urge to say, 'sitting in for Tom Brokaw,' because enough wisdom has been spent on that already. Let's move along."

[Q] Playboy: Had you perceived the Today show as the plum assignment it was?

[A] Gumbel: No. In fact, I was always surprised that everyone made such a big deal about the job. [Pauses] And now you want to know when it finally dawned on me.

[Q] Playboy: Ah, an interviewer's dream. OK, when?

[A] Gumbel: January 14, 1982. We had the show's 30th-anniversary party. I'd gone to the Tavern on the Green the night before and all of the Today show's prior hosts were there. The next morning, when we did the program, I looked around the studio a couple of moments before we went on the air. Seated with me were Barbara Walters, Dave Garroway, Jack Lescoulie, Joe Garagiola, Tom Brokaw, John Chancellor, et al. And when the bell rang, I was the guy who would be talking. I'd been doing the show for only ten days. I'd gone from doing the A.F.C. championship game and asking guys how cold it felt down on the field to being in charge of a very prestigious group. I realized then that maybe this was a little different.

[Q] Playboy: How?

[A] Gumbel: I felt an enormous amount of pride. I don't want to overstate it, but I felt I was the holder of some sort of trust. It was not just another broadcast and I was not just another guy. Instead, I was the new host in the short line of very distinguished people on a program millions of Americans had been raised on. It kind of made me stiffen. I got very emotional toward the end of the show when I invited Garroway to say goodbye as he always had, by saying "Peace." And, of course, he died shortly thereafter.

[Q] Playboy: What kind of advice, if any, did you get from your predecessors?

[A] Gumbel: Garroway talked about being consistent. Garagiola, a dear man whose advice I sought, told me not to ever take myself too seriously, to have fun with it. Chancellor told me that whatever time I was getting up, I could get up later. It was refreshing.

[Q] Playboy: There has always been a lot of speculation about Pauley's resenting the fact that you took over; after all, she'd been there longer. She now says she didn't want the top job, only "perfect equality." Is that how you remember it?

[A] Gumbel: Oh, I think she probably did want to be number one.

[Q] Playboy: And should she have been?

[A] Gumbel: I believe the show works best with one person perceived as being in charge. And, having said that, I had enormous confidence in my ability to assume that position and always have had. Why? In the past, I'd always worked alone. It's always been my show.

[Q] Playboy: Is that how you made your case for primacy?

[A] Gumbel: I never made one. The judgment was made by the people in charge. I didn't fight it. I certainly wasn't going to back off and say, "Hey, guys, I don't want this." That's not my make-up--or what television's about. But at the same time, I didn't go to them and ask for it. I didn't want anyone thinking that here was this big brute who was rushing past the little lady, trying to jam his elbow into her face, screaming, "No, no, take me, Monty!" But I do contend that Jane had to be hurt by how things ended up--though she never once displayed any animosity. A similar thing happened to me on the old Grandstand, show. I was devastated. So Jane may deny it, but there had to be some hard feelings. To a certain extent, that made it difficult for us to grow close. And I was extremely aware of it.

[Q] Playboy: How did you handle it?

[A] Gumbel: I certainly tried to be as generous as possible on the air in terms of making sure the work load was shared. I made sure her name was mentioned first, even if I was the one speaking--you know, bad grammar notwithstanding: "Along with Jane Pauley, I'm Bryant Gumbel," meaning she's Bryant Gumbel, too. [Laughs] I don't know if my gestures advanced or retarded the process. I do know it seems a very distant memory. I'm proud of the relationship we have, not only because I like her a lot but because it's taken a lot for me to reach that point.

[Q] Playboy: Why?

[A] Gumbel: Jane once called my ideas Neanderthal in a magazine article. I am not what many women would call a real liberated man. Alan Alda and I wouldn't be on the same wave length most times. I am a very take-charge person, not Mr. Sensitivity. I'm not portraying myself as a model citizen, now, but to the extent that Jane helped make me aware of that and to the extent that I have altered my behavior to accommodate that, I am very proud of it. At the same time, she's become more natural, more fun-loving.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think you've changed her?

[A] Gumbel: In part. Jane used to be very restrained and overly concerned with whether or not the journalistic community would view what she said and did with approval. Now she likes herself more; she's much more natural. I also think that sitting next to this kind of unusual television person who is not Mr. Straight, who will tell you what he's thinking, who is not always real pleasant, has changed her. Why? Because I have always been impressed with people on television who make the people they work with look good. It's a way of judging people. In sports, Dick Enberg worked with Al McGuire and Billy Packer. They never looked better. Enberg worked with Merlin Olsen and Olsen became a star. I'd like it said that when Bryant Gumbel works with you, you look good. Real good. In fact, I feel confident that Willard Scott, Gene Shalit and Jane have never looked better.

[Q] Playboy: Does it work both ways? Have you ever looked better?

[A] Gumbel: [Puff's on cigar, smiles] Different.

[Q] Playboy: When?

[A] Gumbel: The world-series broadcasts.

[Q] Playboy: Did you, as Jane has suggested, test her by talking "guy talk" around the crew to make her uncomfortable?

[A] Gumbel: Look, you have Jane working with Brokaw, a nice man who is formal and sensitive. Then I stumble in. I'm a raucous guy who, for better or worse, has this reputation of being a brawler in terms of his personal dealings, who doesn't mind screaming or telling it like it is. I'm about as subtle as a punch in the face. None of us had any ideas about testing Jane. In fact, when we were behaving in said manner, none of us thought much about her--which was the problem.

[Q] Playboy: There was one moment on camera during the show's broadcast from Rome when the change in your relationship was apparent, right?

[A] Gumbel: The pat-on-the-back story. Everyone since has talked about how wonderfully brilliant and perfectly timed it was, but it was accidental. We've met Presidents, prime ministers, princes and kings; and, quite frankly, after a while in this job, it ain't no big deal. I think we both felt that way heading for the Vatican. But then you're in the Sistine Chapel and a priest comes over and you're shuttled to the Pope's private chapel and suddenly there's the Pope! Afterward, we realized it was a special moment, not only for television but personally. Jane and I became oblivious to the camera. When it was all over and the Pope was walking away, we turned to watch him leave. There was a camera behind us. And, hell, call it big-brotherly or whatever, or call it something to ease my own nerves--I just kind of put out my hand and rubbed her back, like "It's OK." I wasn't even aware of it. It just happened. Afterward, someone came up and told us it looked terrific.

[Q] Playboy: Would your being aware of the camera have made any difference?

[A] Gumbel: Good question. If you're asking, am I sensitive to being physical with Jane on the air, the answer is yes.

[Q] Playboy: You'd never touched her on camera before, had you?

[A] Gumbel: No. No. Never. Even when she came back from having the babies. We have given each other hugs off camera. And kissed--kind of "Hi, how are you?" or "Merry Christmas" or "Have a good vacation."

[Q] Playboy: On the cheek? Lips?

[A] Gumbel: Now, don't turn this into any big exposé. [Laughs] For all of our bigoted viewers, yes, we have on occasion kissed on the lips. But never for more than half a second. How's that?

[Q] Playboy: Seriously, why the sensitivity about touching her on camera?

[A] Gumbel: The black-white thing. And also because she is a professional woman. I wouldn't hug a male partner.

[Q] Playboy: Characterize the other Today show staffers. Start with Willard Scott.

[A] Gumbel: Doing the weather is only incidental to him. There are people who watch this show just for him. I try never to lose sight of that. I consider Willard a friend. There's never been an occasion when I didn't like him--though I may have been confused by him. And, if I may be so immodest, Willard has never been showcased better than he has been through his association with me.

[Q] Playboy: Why?

[A] Gumbel: Because I don't have a problem being his straight man when he requires it. Also, we've made a concerted effort to make sure that he's more aware of the entire program and that he's part of it--not just as if he were the dancing bear we haul out for two minutes every half hour and then throw off to the side.

[Q] Playboy: What about Gene Shalit?

[A] Gumbel: He's a stabilizing force, our link with the past. He has made me feel like a member of the group. I don't treat him like the eccentric uncle who can only talk about movies. In fact, of all the people here, he is the one I depend on most. If I have one complaint, it's that he gets too many days off. He's got the best contract I've ever heard of: off weekends and Monday and Friday. Not bad.

[Q] Playboy: Do you usually agree with his movie reviews?

[A] Gumbel: Generally not. Gene likes Woody Allen and I don't. He likes quiet movies and I don't. I like lots of action, albeit with some degree of intelligence; he doesn't. We rarely agree. [Looks out window] Coming down the stairs, in pink.

[Q] Playboy: Earlier, we said we'd get around to talking about what people have said about you. The first adjective on our list is perfectionist.

[A] Gumbel: Guilty. But more so where Bryant Gumbel is concerned than about anyone else. However, it's not so all-pervasive that I rush out to a bar when perfection hasn't been achieved that day.

[Q] Playboy: Arrogant.

[A] Gumbel: Television is a very subjective business. If someone likes you, he views you as enormously self-confident. If he doesn't, you're arrogant. In a business where there aren't a lot of black faces, especially successful ones, someone not too thrilled with that color can easily charge one with arrogance. You'd be surprised at the letters I get that say, "I'm really aggravated. I had grown to like you and thought you were a very nice boy until you had the nerve to...." Notice the operative statement.

[Q] Playboy: What about explosive temper? You once said, "I have a low boiling point. I used to smash walls. Now I throw cups." Still true?

[A] Gumbel: I did smash walls. But that's very overblown as a subject of discussion, and it tends to be directed more at myself than anyone else. I haven't thrown a cup in a long time--and never at anybody. Really. This sounds as though when someone brings me bad news, I blow up, and as he races from the office, a glass sails just past his head.

[Q] Playboy: Where did that anger come from?

[A] Gumbel: I just wanted so badly to do well. So if I or someone else made a mistake that didn't contribute to that goal, I didn't like it. But you'd still be hard pressed to find someone who'll say I've been a bully. I'm not a browbeater. I certainly never belittle anyone in public.

[Q] Playboy: What gets you angry on the air?

[A] Gumbel: Any number of apologists for, say, the South African regime. I may find the individual likable, but the arguments advanced anger me. I also get angry talking with people who are less interested in solving problems than in job justification, who are blatantly lying to you and both you and they know it.

[Q] Playboy: Do you bust them publicly?

[A] Gumbel: The problem is that the audience doesn't perceive it as a fair fight. They see me as the guy with all the weapons, and fighting back is dirty pool. Guests are allowed to scream. I'm not. They're allowed to be personal with me, accusatory. If John Smith is on the show, he can refer to me as Bryant. To me, he's always Mr. Smith.

[Q] Playboy: How important is it for you to be liked?

[A] Gumbel: A lot. Anyone who tells you it's not is a liar. I'm tougher than most. I've been told I have a pretty hard shell. Guys I used to go to school with called me Gum Ball. But I don't need it.

[Q] Playboy: The hard shell?

[A] Gumbel: Everybody liking me. I'd love it if the whole goddamn world liked me, but it ain't gonna happen. Ain't gonna happen. I know I don't make it easy on people, in the sense that I'm not going to change or dance to their tune or back off from things in order for them to like me. I am the way that I am. I didn't come on this show to make friends. For that, I go to the Y. My job is to do my job--and if anyone's got a problem with that, he can adapt to me.

[Q] Playboy: How tight is your emotional leash?

[A] Gumbel: A lot looser than I'd like it to be. I'm very emotional.

[Q] Playboy: Does it show on the air?

[A] Gumbel: Yeah. And it upsets me that I don't hide it that well. Sometimes it makes it hard to do my job. I don't take a lot of pride in having my voice waver or fighting not to hyperventilate when I have to say something like "He was a wonderful man and he shall be missed." I've always wanted to be the broadcaster with a firm voice and a steady hand. I never could.

[Q] Playboy: How about the accusation that you're lacking in warmth?

[A] Gumbel: It can happen. It's not that I dislike many people. It's just that I don't like many people. There's a difference. I'm not eager to be as open as some would have me be with them.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel around someone who is really open?

[A] Gumbel: Uncomfortable. I think, Why are you telling me this? It's like the old line "Here's a dime. Go call someone who gives a damn." Surrounding myself with a lot of people who can generate an awful lot of conversation is not for me. I'd rather sit alone in a room with a pad and a pen and scribble--make notes, make lists, write thoughts, listen to music, read.

[Q] Playboy: We assume you're not much for big parties, then.

[A] Gumbel: Right. I do love to entertain but on a small basis, with people I really like.

[Q] Playboy: How does this attitude coexist with your liking to get in front of the camera five days a week to reach millions of people? That's a big party.

[A] Gumbel: Yeah, but I'm limited in what I have to say in terms of time and subject--and I don't have to talk back to you. It's not a call-in show. Also important, when I'm working this side of the camera, I don't think about how many people are out there. I work for an audience of 1,000,000 the same way as for 100,000,000. It's always one to one.

[Q] Playboy: How about charges that you're obsessive?

[A] Gumbel: Give me a definition.

[Q] Playboy: When you make notes for an interview, you key your pen color to a guest's occupation. Your socks and tie match.

[A] Gumbel: Ah. On the first, I plead guilty. I'm a very organized person and I try to foresee ways of maintaining that. The pens thing was odd--though I'm talking ink color, not exterior. If we had an economist, I would use green. Rock star, purple. Domestic issue, brown. Communism, red. That lasted only a couple of months. I realized there was too much information crossover to make sense of. And if matching clothing is obsessive, OK. There's nothing horribly bad about wanting your cuff links to match your attire, your socks to go with your suit, your belt with your shoes. Am I supposed to look like a slob?

[Q] Playboy: What are your strengths as an interviewer?

[A] Gumbel: I'd have to preface this by saying that I think people are the worst judges of themselves. [Pauses] I listen. I'm curious. And I'm not overly concerned with trying to show how bright I am. Instead, I'm more concerned with making sure that the audience understands what the hell we're talking about.

[Q] Playboy: What about weaknesses?

[A] Gumbel: Some people claim, with justification, that they can see my feelings easily in my eyes, hand movements, facial expressions and mannerisms. If I had my druthers, I'd choose not to let them show.

[Q] Playboy: Friedman has said that your weakest moments are when, in the middle of a bad interview, you don't go out of your way to make it better.

[A] Gumbel: There are two ways of looking at that. Anyone can interview a great guest. In Muhammad Ali's heyday, all you had to do was say hello. Talented people are those who can take so-so guests and make them great. I don't consciously avoid going the extra mile. I just know when I sit down what the vibes are. I'm willing to help if the vibe is fright or uncertainty or insecurity. But when I feel "I hate this; TV is stupid and so are you," it's not worth my time. I wonder why I should bust my hump to make jerks look terrific. If they want to come on and look at their fingernails, why try to make them seem more human?

[Q] Playboy: Any spectacular misfires?

[A] Gumbel: Jennifer Beals, Kristy McNichol, Rod Stewart. A lot of bad ones. There's an axiom in this business that if the interview goes poorly, it's your fault. If it goes well, it's because the guest is good. I believe that, so I'm reluctant to say those guests stank, though there are occasions when someone has nothing to say and says it poorly.

[Q] Playboy: Your best moment is generally considered to be your confronting the Soviet generals you interviewed when the Today show visited the U.S.S.R.

[A] Gumbel: It was extremely significant. If one were to be really immodest, one could say it got arms talks going again--but less through Bryant Gumbel's inventiveness than through an accident of timing.

[Q] Playboy: How did you prepare for that interview?

[A] Gumbel: It's the interview I prepared most for in my life. I stayed in my room at the Hotel Rossiya the entire weekend. My producers, writers and researchers sat around playing whatever part they wanted, be it American or Soviet, in discussing each issue. I'd voice a question, and whatever they'd say, I'd try to take the alternative. It worked.

[Q] Playboy: Did you know you had a scoop when one of the officials said that foreign minister Gromyko would be willing to resume the SALT talks?

[A] Gumbel: It did not set off a lightning bolt--in part because, at the time, I was engaged in simultaneous translation, watching two people, trying to maintain eye contact and hearing Russian in one ear and, five seconds later, English in the other. It didn't allow much time for personal celebrations. But, sure, we realized what we had immediately, even though it was part of a longer statement.

[Q] Playboy: Pauley was watching in the New York studio with Henry Kissinger. She says he reacted to your coup with some disgust, saying, "Bryant Gumbel doesn't know SALT from pepper."

[A] Gumbel: Henry would have reason not to look fondly upon that kind of venture. It gives diplomats in foreign countries an opportunity to bypass the normal channels. The Soviets had a well-thought-out plan. They decided they couldn't talk to our authorities, so they tried to take their case directly to the American people. I'm not so arrogant as to think the Soviets said what they did under sharpened, persistent questioning from me. On the other hand, we did go there and seek the interview on our own initiative. Should we take credit? Yeah. But let's keep it in perspective.

[Q] Playboy: How about some short takes on political leaders you've interviewed? One we've interviewed, too, is Jimmy Carter. What did you think of him?

[A] Gumbel: Strange. Strange. When his first book came out, we spent hours going over his life. Sometimes we argued; sometimes it was sad. And when it was all over, as I often do with people--knowns or unknowns--I asked him to autograph the book. I don't think you can tell an awful lot from an inscription, but this case was an exception. He signed, "To Bryant, with best wishes. Jimmy Carter." It embodied the man. Not a lot of imagination, certainly no anger. Just there. Kind of sad.

[Q] Playboy: Mario Cuomo?

[A] Gumbel: I like him because he's part jockstrap and part street kid. That's me on both counts. We've done several interviews and recently spent some time on Governors Island. His wonderful speaking ability is obvious. He's also fair. I can identify with his approach to things.

[Q] Playboy: Could he be President?

[A] Gumbel: Don't know if I'm qualified to answer. He could certainly win my vote--if that's the question.

[Q] Playboy: Ed Koch?

[A] Gumbel: Why do I feel uncomfortable with Ed Koch? A little too much effort for me. A little too much chutzpah. A little too much justification for anybody. A little too frank for his own good. A little too undiplomatic to be called frank. A little too much, too loud, too bold.

[Q] Playboy: Gerald Ford?

[A] Gumbel: I enjoy him. We've played golf on several occasions. As an interview subject, he's very direct. But I think there's a part of me that wants never to forgive him for pardoning Richard Nixon.

[Q] Playboy: You've interviewed Nixon. How did you land that one?

[A] Gumbel: He had apparently said that if he ever had the opportunity, he'd really like to do something with me. I guess that came from my sports association.

[Q] Playboy: What kind of subject was he?

[A] Gumbel: He was quite good. I don't applaud either the man or what he did while in office, but I'd find it difficult to argue with his political astuteness. George McGovern said something on our show that amazed me, though in retrospect, it doesn't sound bad. He said, "The real shame of Watergate was that it ruined what could have been a great Presidency." Coming from McGovern, that's a considerable statement.

[Q] Playboy: You seemed to stay away from Watergate in your interview with Nixon.

[A] Gumbel: No. It's not that I didn't want to discuss it, but it had been gone over ad infinitum.

[Q] Playboy: How did Nixon treat you?

[A] Gumbel: I'm not sure why, but with a degree of, if not fondness, then respect. Maybe curiosity about me, because afterward, I wound up being invited to his house for dinner.

[Q] Playboy: Was it a night to remember?

[A] Gumbel: Different. Strange. A gathering of men like Harrison Salisbury, Alexander Haig. I was curious, because I was aware that I'd be among what Nixon views as a close circle. I was at once flattered, because whatever I thought of the man--and you're talking with a guy who probably isn't exactly welcome at Republican or conservative gatherings, and less because of color than because of a poles-apart divergence of interests--he is a former President. On the other hand, I didn't want to go and discover it was a gathering of the convicted Watergate people.

[Q] Playboy: What did you talk about?

[A] Gumbel: We wound up discussing how each of us had come to meet Nixon and what we thought of him.

[Q] Playboy: Did you tell him?

[A] Gumbel: I didn't pull a lot of punches. I said that if someone had told me 12 years earlier that I'd be at this dinner, I would have considered him certifiable. To me and much of my generation, Nixon was the embodiment of evil. He was all that we disliked about the world. I told him that it was refreshing to realize at a later point in life that not everything was black and white--sometimes a person can be different from his policy. I don't think I was being naïve, though. I wasn't willing to have him as my best buddy--or excuse Watergate. But he was also not a guy with horns on his head and fire coming out of his mouth, eager to pick my pockets.

[Q] Playboy: What was Nixon's reaction?

[A] Gumbel: I honestly don't recall. [Looks out the window again] By the street sign. It's the same woman we saw earlier.

[Q] Playboy: Good memory. Looks a little like Joan Collins from the back.

[A] Gumbel:Much younger.

[Q] Playboy: Haven't you had Joan Collins on the show several times?

[A] Gumbel: I prefer Jackie. When we did Joan, she demanded that there be champagne and Beluga caviar. Sorry, that gets me right there. Even so, we've had some very good exchanges. But the last time she was on, when we didn't seem to see eye to eye or get along, I was disappointed that she didn't tell me, "Hey, that wasn't fair" or, "I'm never coming back here again" or whatever. Instead, she smiled, gave me a kiss and left. Then she threw a fit in the hall. But it doesn't change my affection for her sister, who I think is charming and the talented member of the family.

[Q] Playboy: Let's talk about your family. Your childhood was not typical for blacks.

[A] Gumbel: Right. I grew up in Hyde Park, which was at the time like an island in the city of Chicago. It was an experimental community near the university, at least in terms of integration. Everyone was professional and there was a high priority on education. It was once characterized as a community where, after dinner, people didn't watch I Love Lucy. They read Sartre. At my grade school, Saint Thomas the Apostle, we had students from every country you could imagine. And all had great pride in what they were.

[Q] Playboy: Your father was a respected judge. How do you best remember him?

[A] Gumbel: He was a smart and good man. We were very close. He introduced me to sports. He set an example in education and accomplishment. He also had a wonderful sense of perspective about everything. He recognized how important his job was, yet he kept it in its place.

[Q] Playboy: Was your brother, Greg, who also went on to become a broadcaster, as close to him?

[A] Gumbel: If I had to guess, I'd say I don't think so. But perhaps I'm being selfish. In any case, we never vied for Dad's attention. My views of Greg had more to do with my own feelings of who I was and how I was being perceived than anything that had to do with my dad.

[Q] Playboy: Who were you?

[A] Gumbel: This little smartass kid who was semibright and knew it--but who, I was led to believe, was not very attractive. I grew up with a strong family awareness of being Creole--a combination of French and black, New Orleans--born. Most Creoles had light skin, straight hair, near-Caucasian features. So when I was young, it was not "in" to look black.

[Q] Playboy: Did you look black?

[A] Gumbel: By my family's standards, I looked more black than Creole. I was blacker than Greg, my mom and my dad. In fact, my dad used to say that when he started calling on my mom, my grandfather turned him away because he was too dark. My point is that, at the time, the whiter you looked, the better. Only in the Sixties did things change. But until then, I bought the program. Especially since I had 18,000,000 cousins around at family gatherings and they all had lighter skin, lighter eyes, straighter hair and different noses. I can even remember relatives' laughing because they were amazed I had any hair left with my mother brushing it so, hoping to straighten it out. I began to think I wasn't so good-looking. In retrospect, it seems funny and horribly petty. But of such things are lifetime memories made. I didn't have a lot of social self-confidence, a lot of dates or a lot of friends. Looks was not an area in which I was going to be able to compete.

[Q] Playboy: Did you keep that sense of inferiority at Bates College?

[A] Gumbel: I arrived at college when black pride was on the rise. I could look at myself in the mirror, see a black person and think I was OK--not How come my skin's black? Feeling that way, I found a number of young ladies willing to confirm my idea that I wasn't unattractive.

[Q] Playboy: You eventually married a black woman, June Baranco. But at Bates, did you date black girls or white ones?

[A] Gumbel: White. There were four black students out of about 900.

[Q] Playboy: How did you feel about dating white women?

[A] Gumbel: I never thought it unusual. Interracial marriages were common in Hyde Park.

[Q] Playboy: How did the parents react when you dated a local girl?

[A] Gumbel: If you went out with a townie, you didn't go to her house. My white friends acted the same way. My two white roommates never met a townie girl's parents. I'm not horribly proud of it, if only because of what it says about the relationship between town folks and college kids.

[Q] Playboy: We get it: Breaking Away.

[A] Gumbel: More like An Officer and a Gentleman.

[Q] Playboy: As opposed to Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?

[A] Gumbel: [Laughs] That's exactly right.

[Q] Playboy: Did you come of age sexually in college?

[A] Gumbel: I think the discreet thing to say--as a gentleman--is "None of your damn business." [Laughs]

[Q] Playboy: Come on, wasn't it the Sixties? Put it this way: Did you leave college feeling as though you'd missed something?

[A] Gumbel: I don't know many guys who left college as virgins. Is my mother going to read this?

[Q] Playboy: It'll be toward the back.

[A] Gumbel: [Laughs] I didn't go to college a virgin. Enough on that.

[Q] Playboy: What about drugs in school?

[A] Gumbel: I smoked some grass, took most of what was available--not LSD--but I wasn't a druggie who needed something in order to face the day or enjoy himself. I gave it up a long time ago, when I was unemployed for the first time. Couldn't afford it and never went back. I used to drink a lot in college, though--more so than I'm proud of. I mean an awful lot. Most guys in college get wasted on the weekends. I got wasted six, seven days a week. It was just social, but I never drank until I got to college. My dad had taken the glamor off it early by telling Greg and me that if we wanted to drink at home, it was OK.

[Q] Playboy: Do you still emulate your father?

[A] Gumbel: I try to. He is and has always been the only idol I've ever had. If it's possible for somebody to carry on what amounts to a 22-year love affair with his dad, that's what I did.

[Q] Playboy: It's been suggested that your drive for success, your perfectionism, is based on your trying to live up to your father's example, and that because he died before your career began, you've essentially been chasing a ghost. Is that fair?

[A] Gumbel: I don't buy it. I try to do as well as I can because of values instilled in me. But chasing a ghost? [Pauses] My daddy was never the kind of guy who was never satisfied with what I did. He was only satisfied or dissatisfied with the effort expended. We had to perform to our capacity. So if my daddy drives me--as everyone says--then it's only in terms of my memory that he never let me do anything less than as well as I could. I like competing. I like winning. But that's a whole lot different from chasing some unseen force.

[A long pause, looks out window] I'll be honest with you. I'm getting a better handle on it now. Like most guys, I used to be real concerned with proving things--to the public, co-workers, competitors, myself. Maybe it's a sign of maturity, but I think those people now know who I am. And I've reached the point where I like myself a lot. I'm not totally satisfied, but I don't, on a daily basis, have to show myself a challenge I can answer in order to like myself. I still ask a lot of myself, but I don't grade as harshly.

[Q] Playboy: How did you first get involved in sports journalism?

[A] Gumbel: I was unemployed and alone in New York, having quit my job selling paper cartons. So I took stock of what I thought I could do. I'd always been fairly decent at words and I thought I knew sports. So I tried to interest magazines in my writing for them. I went through Writer's Market with a fine-tooth comb, wrote articles, sent them in, got rejections.

One place was Black Sports. I met a guy who introduced me to the publisher. I became a staff writer, then began writing almost the entire magazine under a zillion names. So the publisher made me editor, since I was doing it all, anyway.

[Q] Playboy: And that led you to audition for KNBC in Burbank. Was sports consciously chosen as your vehicle to get on television?

[A] Gumbel: No. I wish I had been that smart. Television was never part of the plan. I had left Black Sports and was searching for something else. I interviewed at the Baltimore Sun and The Boston Globe. I'd also been approached to do a tape audition at NBC. I didn't think much of the experience. The tape was sent west, but by the time I was talking to the newspapers, it had long since passed from my memory. The Boston Globe had promised to get back to me. Then, on April 10, 1972, a friend of the family called, crying, and said, "Your father's dead." I put the phone down, and a few minutes later, The Boston Globe called with favorable news. I told them about my dad and asked for a couple of weeks. I went to Chicago, buried my dad, came home and got a call from KNBC in Burbank, saying they liked my tape and wanted me to fly out for another audition. It was my first time west of the Mississippi. To make a long story short, I got the job. It paid $21,500. I just thought, Boy oh boy oh boy.

[Q] Playboy: And your climb at KNBC was rapid.

[A] Gumbel: I began as a weekend sportscaster in 1972, and soon I started doing some network things. When Ross Porter left to cover Dodgers games, I was made sports director.

[Q] Playboy: Why didn't you do play by play?

[A] Gumbel: I knew I had a voice that would get too excited and sound too high. But it was a time when everyone thought you had to do it in order to become a star. I realized my strength was in being able to host an event, to interview people, to communicate information clearly in short sequences, to make an entire program watchable.

[Q] Playboy: How did you get the network's attention?

[A] Gumbel: Two very lucky opportunities that I did real well with. In 1973 or 1974, I had gone to Oakland to report for our local broadcast on the world series between the A's and the Dodgers. To do it, I had to use network cameras and facilities following the game. The crews weren't exactly grateful for my keeping them there late at night. But I did the broadcasts flawlessly--while network people were watching. They could put it in their memory bank.

Then, in 1975, the N.C.A.A. championships happened to be in San Diego, and John Wooden happened to announce his retirement after the final game. So I was called upon to go down there, use network cameras and do a minute-and-a-half commentary on what it all meant. Which means you've got to think of it right off the top of your head. Again, the network people in the truck were watching as I jumped out in front of the cameras and did it. This time they went. "Hey, wait a minute, Who is this kid?" So I was fortunate. I could have stumbled, had bad days. I was fortunate and good enough to take advantage of those opportunities. And that's it.

[Q] Playboy: You then got to host Grandstand, which became known as N.F.L. '78. But haven't you also done a show called Games People Play?

[A] Gumbel: Yeah. The show is not high on my résumé. It was a bunch of stupid games that guys who sit around at a jock party might do: Who is the strongest wrist wrestler? Who can knock over the most bottles? Who can drink the most? In retrospect, the only terrible harm Games People Play did was to introduce Mr. T to the world. He was involved in the world's-toughest-bouncer competition. That it introduced that buffoon to the world, I'm ashamed of.

[Q] Playboy: Then why did you do it?

[A] Gumbel: We all agreed that a prime-time program with Bryant Gumbel singing and dancing would be foolish. We had to use sports as a base. What evolved was a contract that called for me to continue doing all my sports news, as host, to contribute thrice-weekly reports to the Today show and to host Games People Play. Then I had shows in all three areas. At the time, I'd already quit my Los Angeles stuff and had moved to New York.

[Q] Playboy: While we're on the subject of sports, let's try this. You love baseball. If we give you some names of prominent interviewers, talk-show hosts and newspersons, how about staffing an imaginary baseball team? Position them, explain your choices and throw in a quick personal analysis. You game?

[A] Gumbel: [Laughs] That's interesting. OK.

[Q] Playboy: Larry King.

[A] Gumbel: Center field. He free-lances and covers a lot of ground. But I don't believe him when he says he does no preparation for his guests. If so, he can do some sleight of hand unknown to me or anyone else in this business.

[Q] Playboy: Ted Koppel.

[A] Gumbel: Shortstop, because you have to be able to go to your left and right. You have to be quick and durable. It's probably the toughest position to play. He's reached the point where his press and reputation are so good that he's passed beyond objective judgment. That is, his work is so solid that the audience's objectivity--not his--is gone. Of course, Johnny Carson still outpoints him.

[Q] Playboy: OK, Carson.

[A] Gumbel: First base, because you field everybody else's bad hops, make up for everybody else's mistakes--and they don't ask you to be spectacular, just steady. I would lead the standing ovation for anybody who could, for 25 years, go out there and dominate as he does.

[Q] Playboy: David Letterman.

[A] Gumbel: You want me to be serious?

[Q] Playboy: Yes.

[A] Gumbel: I don't think David does interviews. I'm not sure he deserves to be on this team. We always used to take the kid we didn't care for much, or the one who was a bit of an oddball, and stick him in right field. But I also need someone in right who has a strong arm--and I'm not sure of that with Letterman.

[Q] Playboy: Could your attitude have to do with the feud you have been having since he interrupted one of your broadcasts? And if so, why can't you take it as a joke?

[A] Gumbel: Because it wasn't even close to being funny. I thought it sophomoric. I like a joke as much as the next guy, but Letterman had no idea what we were involved in. It could have been something much more serious. I'd never do anything injurious to his program, because I have a lot more respect for him. The fact that he'd do that to me tells me something.

[Q] Playboy: Can this situation be cleared up?

[A] Gumbel: The adult thing would be for him to say, "I'm sorry." Not publicly. He doesn't have to do a mea culpa in front of millions. A private "Hey, I didn't mean to screw it up. Jeez, I'm sorry you're out of joint about it." But that's never happened. I don't dislike him or wish him ill. I mean, the guy's funny, brilliant, successful. I applaud him. All I want is an apology. Until then, I choose not to be a guest on his show.

[Q] Playboy: You mean he's asked you to do his show since the incident?

[A] Gumbel: Yes. I've declined.

[Q] Playboy: Why not lighten up? He has fun talking about all the money NBC makes paying for your suits; and on his Thanksgiving Film Festival, a marquee behind him read----

[A] Gumbel: Bryant: The Musical. I hear this stuff from time to time. I don't mind being the butt of his jokes. Look, we ran into each other recently. He said, "Hey, congratulations on your success." I said, "Thanks. I'm glad things are going well for you." He said, "Thanks. Hey, you realize all this other stuff is just wrestling." I said, "Well, you may see it that way, but we really ought to talk."

[Q] Playboy: Have you heard from him since then?

[A] Gumbel: No. That's fine. He's got other things to do.

[Q] Playboy: OK. Letterman is possible in right field. How about Hartman?

[A] Gumbel: Haven't seen him play much, but ... gregarious, likes to talk. Probably the catcher, because you get beat up a lot back there, too--and he took his licks early on but stayed durable. Semi-anonymous, always with the mask on and always holding a conversation with the batter.

[Q] Playboy: Bryant Gumbel.

[A] Gumbel: [Whistles] Probably at third. All you need is a big chest and a strong arm. The analogy is a lot of guts and a fast mouth--or a fast mind. I could probably handle that. The hot corner. Ron Santo.

[Q] Playboy: Dan Rather.

[A] Gumbel: Pitcher. Robin Roberts type. Tom Seaver type. Solid citizen. Strong right-hander. Send him out and don't even worry about it. He'll always be there. Good counterbalance on the staff. But as an interviewer, he makes me uncomfortable, because he's very intense--and that's not me. I always wonder why his eyes don't blink.

[Q] Playboy: Mike Wallace.

[A] Gumbel: Ah. My ace reliever. I'd send him in at every tough situation. Bases loaded, nobody out? I'd go to Wallace. He gets out right-handers and left-handers. Real good fast ball. Deceptive breaking stuff. Can throw a trick pitch. Been around. Gets warm in a hurry. You can call on him day after day.

[Q] Playboy: Barbara Walters.

[A] Gumbel: Second base. Reminds me a lot of Tito Fuentes of the Giants. Always wore a lot of gold chains. Did everything with flair. Kind of a hot dog. I liked Tito. That's Barbara. Smaller than the other guys, but, damn it, size isn't going to be a factor, so she gets in there and mixes it up--and gets a surprising number of hits. She's competing in a league where a lot of people didn't think she could even play and she's doing all right--and she's in the starting line-up.

[Q] Playboy: Jane Pauley.

[A] Gumbel: Jane's my third starting pitcher. She's always on my staff and in the rotation and may even be as intense as my big right-hander--though certainly not as wacky as my left-hander. I can send her out confident of getting a good, strong game. I'll always be in the ball game with her, and she's good to have around the clubhouse.

[Q] Playboy: We need a left fielder.

[A] Gumbel: Give me names.

[Q] Playboy: Roger Mudd? Connie Chung?

[A] Gumbel: Not Chung. She's on the bench. It would be Mudd. Roger knows his way around the ball parks; he's been in every one in the league. He's a steadying influence on the club. Maybe he doesn't have the power he used to, but he'll occasionally hit a dinger. He won't embarrass me in left field.

[Q] Playboy: Dick Cavett.

[A] Gumbel: Bat boy. There are too many sentences that include I. "Woody and I." He wouldn't be on the team.

[Q] Playboy: Linda Ellerbee.

[A] Gumbel: She'd probably prefer to go off and start her own women's team.

[Q] Playboy: What's your problem with her?

[A] Gumbel: I don't mean to malign her. I've just read some things she's said that seem to indicate that she believes that women are the only worthwhile people in this business. I don't even think my attitude here is negative. And, no, she's never said a bad word about me.

[Q] Playboy: Howard Cosell.

[A] Gumbel: This may seem strange, but I'd make him the PR guy. He's what I like in a PR guy. He's combative. He doesn't have his players take all the crap. Maybe he should be the manager--the benevolent kind who doesn't necessarily meddle with the guys. He'll attract the attention and take the heat and answer the boss, the press, the critics. And he used to be a great ballplayer in his time.

I always said when I was in sports that with every check I cashed, I should say thank you to Howard. He raised the visibility of the business enormously. He was willing to talk about things that weren't necessarily popular. He was willing to see beyond the sport of the game.

[Q] Playboy: We still have Brokaw.

[A] Gumbel: All my spots are full. Hmm. Tom is my utility man. Not that he's on the bench, but he's always the first guy off the bench. I can play him anywhere. He's my Bob Baylor, my Lee Lacey. He's a Jack-of-all-trades--the only thing I don't ask him to do is pitch, but he doesn't mind taking a beating if I give him the catcher's spot. Tom's been hurt in some instances because he's good-looking and young. Too many people translate that to mean pretty boy. That's not true. Tom's track record is as good as, and in some cases better than, Dan Rather's. He's flat-out solid.

[Q] Playboy: Since we've mentioned two network anchor men, how about the third, Peter Jennings?

[A] Gumbel: Not on my club. Doesn't really fit in. He thinks maybe he should be on the all-star team and skip the ball games. It's not for lack of talent, but some think they're better than they are and so a team is better of! without them.

[Q] Playboy: Sam Donaldson.

[A] Gumbel: Only one position for Sam: cheerleader. He's got the only mouth for it. [Laughs] I like Sam. I shouldn't say that. I've never met him, first off, but I like him because, in a press corps that is all too passive in this Administration, he is ever-willing to jump forward.

[Q] Playboy: With apologies to those not mentioned, we'll throw out one last name: Ed Bradley.

[A] Gumbel: I've got only so many positions. If I could platoon, I'd-pair him with Larry King in center. Ed covers a lot of ground and can do lots for me. I enjoy watching him interview, because he does his homework. He's straightforward--and I know that away from the camera, he's got a lot of personality.

[Q] Playboy: Do you two ever talk about being highly visible black newsmen?

[A] Gumbel: No. But, then, I've never talked with Tom Brokaw about being guys on the air as opposed to women.

[Q] Playboy: You've said that you feel colorless. Exactly what did you mean?

[A] Gumbel: I meant that black had stopped being the primary adjective used to describe me.

[Q] Playboy: Yet you've been criticized for being too white. People have said you're the least black black person they know, and that's not entirely complimentary.

[A] Gumbel: That's not my problem. I do get letters that say, "You're untypically black. You dress nicely, talk nicely, look nice." But most of the black people I know look like me, talk like me, dress like me. The problem is more in people's perception than in me.

[Q] Playboy: Do the implications of those letters insult you?

[A] Gumbel: Yeah, but in the grand scale of things, it's minor. The more typical letter says, "I used to like you, etc., until you said such and such." In other words, I was the fair-haired boy until I pissed them off. Now I'm like every other black who's come down the pike. Well, that's too damn bad.

[Q] Playboy: Has your popularity positively affected the hiring of blacks on TV?

[A] Gumbel: I'm reluctant to try to transfer anything that happens to Bryant Gumbel to a wider sphere. I'd love to believe it's true, though. In great part, TV has failed to increase racial sensitivities in a positive fashion. It's done little to bridge the gap between black and white. And it's less what TV has done than what it hasn't. It hasn't put enough blacks in high-visibility positions, at decision-making levels. Those failures, however intangible, can't be ignored. Too often, the only stories you see on blacks are about poverty. That reinforces stereotypes and does not advance racial harmony.

[Q] Playboy: What do you see yourself doing after you're through with the Today show?

[A] Gumbel: You'll laugh, but I'd love to be a writer. Where can I go? There aren't a lot of rungs above on the ladder, and I don't say that arrogantly. I always tell myself to work up a great answer to that question, because I think I sound like a comedian when it's asked. But the answer has never occurred to me, and I don't think it's important. One day, I will get up in the morning, put my feet on the floor, look at the clock and say, "This is insane. I no longer want to do this." Hmm. If someone asked me if, at the end of my contract, I'd like to be the new commissioner of baseball, that would be attractive. But no one's offering. [Stops, looks out window] Check it out at one o'clock.

[Q] Playboy: Cute. By the way, what does your wife say about all this girl watching? Do you do this in her presence?

[A] Gumbel: Oh, sure. But I would never say anything. Al McGuire once said that one of the rules of marriage he always followed was never commenting on another woman in his wife's presence. Not a bad rule.

[Q] Playboy: But she sees your eyes wander?

[A] Gumbel: I think she'd have to. Don't everybody's?

[Q] Playboy: What are your rules for marriage?

[A] Gumbel: The same as for most other things: Don't make a rule until a problem arises. Then make sure it never happens again. June and I think alike on important things.

[Q] Playboy: All right, winding things up, can you describe yourself in a five-item list, in order of importance?

[A] Gumbel: Hmm. Individual. Family man. TV personality. Friend. Golfer.

[Q] Playboy: We know golf is almost your religion. You practice it pretty seriously. What's the attraction?

[A] Gumbel: The bottom line is the independence, and I mean that in every sense. You're out there and can't be bothered. You can't be reached. Everything you do, you control. It's not a question of losing because your opponent hit the net or you were blinded by the sun. It's not that the pitcher was too tough or if the fence hadn't been so far away, the ball would have gone over instead of being caught. None of that comes into account. You hit the ball down the middle of the fairway because you did it. No one else shares in it. If it goes out of bounds, no one else is to blame. The course you're playing doesn't fight back. It can't be intimidated. All it says to you is "Nice shot. Hit another one." And any mistake you make you can't quickly undo. There's no such thing as taking a stroke back. It's there forever. Some swings are absolutely perfect. Some hit the ball only two feet. Why did one work and the other not? You weren't concentrating. Plain and simple. So the battle becomes, every time, can you concentrate to your fullest and get out every ounce of your ability at that moment? And can you do it again and again over 18 holes?

[Q] Playboy: Sounds like a metaphor for your life. Are you as passionate about the Today show?

[A] Gumbel: At one minute to seven every morning, I get passionate about it. Yeah. I really do. I am aware that in 60 seconds, it goes on and I am the guy in charge. That's something to get passionate about.

[Q] Playboy: What would you ask yourself if you were a guest on the Today show?

[A] Gumbel: Hmm. "Why are you here, Mr. Gumbel?"

[Q] Playboy: Not good enough.

[A] Gumbel: I must be honest. This whole thing--interviewing me--is flattering. It's significant to me. Really. But for the life of me, I just can't believe I'm really that special. I know I'm a guy who has been in every magazine he can imagine, and on most TV programs, but they didn't have the same kind of significance to me as the Playboy Interview. I guess some would say that my sitting here should convince me.

[Q] Playboy: Put aside this interview. Pretend you're a guest on your own show and time's running out. Commercial's coming up. What's the question you'd ask?

[A] Gumbel: Probably the dumbest you can imagine.

[Q] Playboy: Give it a try.

[A] Gumbel: "What are you really like?"

[Q] Playboy: And the answer?

[A] Gumbel: Probably like nothing you'd think. [Pauses, relights cigar] I'd probably look at the guy and see that in comparison with other people who do this job, he's really ... a different kind of personality. Maybe more flamboyant. And I'd wonder how the hell he fits into this group. The quick answer would be "He doesn't."

"If television has one enormous challenge in the years ahead, it's going to be separating worth from celebrity."

"I wonder why I should bust my hump to make jerks look terrific."