A Conversation with Lee Trevino

[Q] Playboy: In 1990, you earned one point two million dollars on the Senior Tour, more than Greg Norman made on the regular P.G.A. Tour. The Senior Tour seems to be getting more popular. Why?

[A] Trevino: The majority of the fans now supporting the Senior Tour watched us play all those years. They've told their kids and the grandkids all about us. That's why our galleries are actually getting younger and younger all the time. Plus, we've always had an identity. Arnold Palmer, the Happy Mex, Chi Chi Rodriguez. We had names and we had people, the little man from South Africa, Gary Player; left-hander Bob Charles; Arnie's Army; the Sergeant, Orville Moody. We were almost like TV characters. The only player on the regular tour galleries identify with and recognize everywhere is Payne Stewart. And that's only because he wears different clothes than everyone else. When he takes those plus fours and those long Argyle socks off, no one knows him. In his private life, he walks around and nobody recognizes him. He's almost like the rock band Kiss.

[Q] Playboy: It's no secret that the regular P.G.A. Tour needs a superstar. Candidates include Nick Faldo and Mark Calcavecchia. Can one player dominate?

[A] Trevino: There are too many tournaments, and the prize money is so big now. No player is going to compete enough to have a chance of dominating. A decent finish in only a couple of events gives him a decent living.

[Q] Playboy: Is that the only reason? Isn't it also that today's players lack character?

[A] Trevino: We're in a different generation. When we came up, in the Fifties and Sixties, we didn't just play golf. We worked in the pro shop. We sold people shoes. We'd sell a golfer a pair of ten-Ds when he wore eleven-C and he liked them. We sold large-size shirts to guys who wore extra-large. We were salesmen. We went out at night, we drank, we played cards.

The new generation of golfers coming up today is very talented but strictly business. They're not actors--entertainers--and they should be. Regardless of what you think, people still love to be stroked a little bit. They don't care if it's a lie, they just say, "Hey, the guy talked to me." "He slapped me on the back." "We laughed together." "We had a beer." Because of our backgrounds, and because the Senior Tour is like a second childhood, we (continued on page 144) Lee Trevino (continued from page 114) enjoy ourselves. We love to win, but we have fun doing it. We're entertainers--and people love us more for it.

[Q] Playboy: Your first wife called you a golf bum. Is that still an apt description?

[A] Trevino: I'm still a golf bum, except the income is a little better. I love to play the game. Nothing pleases me more. When I take off to relax, I play golf or hit golf balls. When I sleep at night, I dream about golf. When I'm awake during the middle of the night, I think about the golf swing. It's on my mind all the time. I'm just in love with the damn game.

[Q] Playboy: In the early days, you used to bet with no money in your pocket. You must have been scared. Once you started making big bucks on tour, were you ever truly scared during a tournament?

[A] Trevino: Well, yes. Most players fixing to win a golf tournament, or leading a golf tournament, are scared.

[Q] Playboy: Is there one incident you can think of when you were very scared?

[A] Trevino: In 1974, when I won the R.G.A. at Tanglewood, in North Carolina. I remember playing with Hubert Green and Jack Nicklaus in the last round, and I had what you call the putting yips. I couldn't take the putter back, and I was having a tough time making any putts in that round. But I hit the ball so well from tee to green and was so close to the hole all the time that a blind man could have made the putts. On the seventy-second hole, I knew that if I two-putted from twenty-five feet, the tournament was mine. But, coming off a three-putt on the seventy-first hole, I was nervous.

I putted the ball down about a foot and a half from the hole. It is customary to mark your ball and let the other players finish, so you can take all the glory when you make yours. But I looked over at Jack and I said, 'Jack, do you mind if I putt out, because if I don't, I'm going to pass out right in the middle of this green." Jack looked at me with that little grin of his and said, "Go ahead," and I tapped the ball in. Hell, I had such a case of the yips that if my ball had been two feet away, there was no way I'd have made the putt.

[Q] Playboy: Is the pressure-choke factor overrated among golf pros? Have you ever choked?

[A] Trevino: I don't think it's overrated. You choke when your confidence level is less than one hundred percent, usually due to hitting the ball poorly. You know you're "leaking oil" and it's a matter of time before you break down. There are so many elements to good play, and so much pressure on tour, choking is common.

At Houston one year, I was leading David Graham by one stroke after three rounds, but I was playing poorly. It was so bad on the final day that when I walked to the first tee, I had enough cotton in my mouth to knit a sweater. I took this cup of water, and by the time I got it to my lips, there was no water in it. That's how bad I was shaking. I was so nervous that I was duck hooking. I knew I wasn't striking the ball well enough to win. So I choked. Graham, on the other hand, was playing so well he was choke-proof; he shot sixty-four and won.

[Q] Playboy: Many pros say you are the best shotmaker of all time. Is there a shot that you can't hit?

[A] Trevino: Yeah, there are a lot of shots I can't hit. One that comes to mind real quick is a high-draw one iron. In his heyday, Sam Snead was very good at hitting that shot. Today, Nicklaus is very good. The reason: He's tall and a naturally more upright swinger. The size of a golfer has a lot to do with his versatility as a shotmaker. I'm short, five foot seven. I can hit a low shot probably easier than a tall player. That's because my swing is more rounded, flatter, and I hold the angle of my hands longer in the hitting area. Therefore, I hit the ball more on the through-swing than on the upswing.

The other shot that gives me trouble is the fairway-bunker shot. Nicklaus is one of the best at executing that shot--if not the best. Jack is so good out of a fairway bunker because he always hovers the club above the ground, so he feels comfortable in sand, where Rules of Golf forbids you to ground the club. Also, he is a natural picker of the ball. I'm more of a digger, I take divots. And diggers make poor fairway-bunker players.

[Q] Playboy: Is not being able to hit the high shot what hurts you most at Augusta--where the greens are fast-running--and is being able to hit the low shot what helps you during the British Open when the wind howls?

[A] Trevino: Exactly. That's why I have no green jackets hanging in my closet but have won the British Open twice. Augusta is like teeing out of a hole all the time. Every tee ball in Augusta is almost going uphill. Then it gets out there, about two hundred fifty, two hundred sixty yards, and then it goes back downhill. I'm not long enough to get over the up, so I'm usually left with a long iron off a hilly lie. The big hitter is strong enough to get over the up. He gets roll and leaves himself a short iron to the green; that's a big advantage, because those clubs are easier to hit with backspin. Augusta is just not a very good golf course for me. Besides, most of the greens at Augusta lean from left to right, which means it takes a right-to-left draw shot to stop the ball quickly. If you go into an Augusta green working the ball from left to right, as I do, the damn thing rolls off the green.

[Q] Playboy: Handicap your game.

[A] Trevino: Driving, probably the top three in the world. So I'm definitely scratch with the driver.

[Q] Playboy: Putting?

[A] Trevino: Uh, two.

[Q] Playboy: Sand play?

[A] Trevino: About a one.

[Q] Playboy: Chipping?

[A] Trevino: Probably scratch.

[Q] Playboy: Long irons?

[A] Trevino: Probably a six.

[Q] Playboy: Short irons?

[A] Trevino: Scratch.

[Q] Playboy: Medium irons?

[A] Trevino: One.

[Q] Playboy: What would you be doing now if you hadn't become a golf pro?

[A] Trevino: I'd probably be making license plates--pretty license plates, too. Golf and the Marine Corps have been my salvation.

[Q] Playboy: What will you do when you're too old to compete?

[A] Trevino: If I don't die before I retire, I'm going to teach my craft of shot making to others. Somebody's got to teach younger people how to execute these shots, and I'd like that somebody to be me. I don't want to die with the knowledge I have of hitting different golf shots.

[Q] Playboy: That's the sad thing about Ben Hogan. He was a shot-making wizard, but, unlike the great Bobby Jones, who made a series of instruction films, Hogan has left golfers very little.

[A] Trevino: Exactly! If Hogan were to do a clinic on the day of a senior tournament, I'd withdraw from it.

It's tragic: He's going to leave us someday without at least recording his swing secrets. He was a human shot-making machine and golfers should be treated to more than the one excellent book he wrote, Ben Hogan's Five Lessons in Golf.

He does make a beautiful golf club, but that doesn't mean anything. He needs to relate his knowledge of shot making to golfers so they can enjoy using his great clubs. But maybe he did do something like Jones, and he has it locked up in a safe, and when he passes away, they'll bring 'em out. I certainly hope so.

[Q] Playboy: You've been accused of using gamesmanship on opponents. Tell us about playing against former British Open and U.S. Open winner Tony Jacklin in England.

[A] Trevino: The English thought I was crazy because I talked and played golf at the same time. Everything is hush-hush over there. I remember Jacklin saying, "Now, listen, Lee, let's play golf today, I don't want to talk." And I said, "Tony, you don't have to talk, all you have to do is listen."

[Q] Playboy: Didn't you throw a fake snake at Nicklaus before the start of the play-off for the 1971 U.S. Open--which you ended up winning?

[A] Trevino: Oh, that was just a joke. Golf's supposed to be fun. People have said that I do these things to disturb people, but I never tried to do anything like that. Besides, if you're not capable of beating that other guy, whatever the hell you say to him--with the exception of screaming on his backswing--you're not going to beat him.

[Q] Playboy: People must have tried to play tricks on you. What are a couple of those tricks?

[A] Trevino: Talking during my backswing and purposely casting a shadow on my putting line are two favorites. Or a player who is away and putting on your line pulls the ball left of the hole and tries to put you off by saying, "God, I couldn't believe that goes left!" Or a player mishits, say, a seven iron, the ball falls short of the green and he says to his caddie, "Boy, I killed that." What usually happens is, an opponent with rabbit ears hears this, chooses a stronger club and hits the ball way over the green. There are a hundred tricks.

[Q] Playboy: What was your greatest golf hustle?

[A] Trevino: God, you know, I never hustled anybody. I was a good player. If I ever hustled anyone, it was merely because I told everybody that I was a scratch player when, truthfully, I beat par by four strokes on my course, Tenison Park, almost every time. So, to tell you the truth, I should have given my opponents more shots on my course ... because of "local knowledge."

[Q] Playboy: Have you ever played with anybody who was truly a born cheat?

[A] Trevino: Jesus, I played with guys at Tenison Park who did things like put petroleum jelly on the face of the club to make the ball go straight. Oh, hell, these guys were such cheats that we had a rule: You could tee it up everywhere--the rough, bunkers--so you never had to watch the other guy. Let everybody cheat. That way, nobody could outcheat anybody else.

[Q] Playboy: Pros shoot in the sixties all the time. Why can't most amateurs break ninety?

[A] Trevino: Well, rank beginners have no business playing a golf course. I mean, would a guy who just learned to drive a car enter the Indianapolis 500? People buy a set of clubs, shoes, pay a greens fee, and then go play on a golf course. They're wasting time. You've got to get on the practice tee and take lessons. If you're a total beginner, you should practice a year before you ever get on a golf course. You should go to a driving range religiously, three or four times a week, at night, whatever. All weekends should be spent hitting golf balls. Learn how to get the ball in the air; learn how to chip it; get out of bunkers; then you'll enjoy the game. How in the hell are you going to enjoy the game rolling it around? It's not bowling, you know.

[Q] Playboy: In France, players must pass written and performance tests, and if they fail, they can't play on a regulation course. Should we do the same thing here?

[A] Trevino: No. I can understand France. France's golf has gone berserk. I can remember ten years ago, they had forty thousand golfers registered with the French Federation of Golf. Now they have two hundred thousand. They haven't been able to increase the number of golf courses that much. But I think golfers here should work at their game more. That's why golf is so slow today, because we have so many players who are shooting such high scores.

[Q] Playboy: You've played with Prince Rainier, President Ford, Bob Hope, Sean Connery, the king of Morocco--the list goes on. Who would be in your ideal foursome?

[A] Trevino: Jesus Christ, Arnold Palmer and Bob Hope.

[Q] Playboy: In 1969, at the Hartford Open, you met an eleven-year-old lemonade-stand girl, never dreaming you would marry her in 1983. Assuming that was your greatest golf moment, was your second your Skins Game hole in one--the stroke that earned you one hundred seventy-five thousand dollars and a car?

[A] Trevino: No, it was when I beat Nicklaus in a play-off to win the 1971 U.S. Open. I shot sixty-eight. He shot seventy-one.

[Q] Playboy: Your favorite golf course, Cypress Point, withdrew from the P.G.A. Tour tournament roster because it didn't want to be told whom to let into its club--such as black members. How do you react to that?

[A] Trevino: I've always had mixed emotions about it. They have two hundred and fifty members. That's why it's so private. Players were never allowed in their clubhouse when we played the Crosby. We usually changed our shoes in the parking lot. But we understood that. We were just appreciative and thankful that we could play a golf course like that. They could have closed the doors on us a long time ago. They kept them open because of Crosby. I'll tell you how exclusive this club is. The parking lot holds about twenty cars. It's a beautiful place. It's always been my favorite, but I never got into this other business. It's a private club, and that's why they call it a private club. So I don't have anything against their saying it's a private club.

[Q] Playboy: Describe your prejudices on golf architecture.

[A] Trevino: Unlike Nicklaus, who builds difficult courses, I believe in building golf courses like the old architects built. I like flat greens and shallow bunkers; I like to leave at least two thirds of the green open in front where you can bump and run--naturally, because I hit low. I like to put water on a golf course, but I want it to be seen; I don't want it to be in your way. If you hit a real poor shot, there should be a chance of going into the water. But I don't think that you should hit a marginal shot that looks like it's going to go onto the green, and all of a sudden--boop!--it goes into the water. Basically, I build player-friendly courses.

Architects today forget that the majority of golfers are eighteen to twenty-four handicaps. That's one of the reasons that most of the new clubs around the country are going broke--they're too difficult to play. Why should a member and his wife buy a house on a golf course they can't play?

[Q] Playboy: The National Golf Foundation projects that about four hundred golf courses a year will have to be built before the year 2000 to accommodate the forty million golfers who will be playing the game. Environmentalists are blocking a lot of new projects.

[A] Trevino: Sure. They'll kill you in a minute. I wanted to invest in one in Florida, but they had a little mouse or something running around by the beach, and it killed us. But we've got some courses going in Taiwan, one in Japan, fixin' to open one up in Wisconsin, so we're getting into a little more all the time.

[Q] Playboy: What's the state of golf jokes these days?

[A] Trevino: I heard one about a guy who had a different-color golf ball that he couldn't lose. I say, "How come you can't lose it?" "Because if you hit it down the fairway, it beeps. You hit it in the rough and a little sickle comes out of it and mows the grass down, where you can see it. If you put it in the water, pontoons come out of it, the wind blows it over and you can retrieve it." I say, "Where in the hell did you buy this thing?" He says, "I don't know. I found this one."

[Q] Playboy: Because most golfers don't break ninety, it seems new clubs will not help Mr. Average a great deal. If you agree, don't you feel sort of guilty sponsoring or endorsing Spalding clubs?

[A] Trevino: I don't think that I should feel guilty about taking money for endorsing a golf club. What Spalding is trying to do is to sell a product that it thinks is better than anyone else's. Everyone else is doing the same thing. That's business. Besides, golfers want to play with what the pros play with.

[Q] Playboy: What's in your golf bag?

[A] Trevino: Listen, my caddie Herman Mitchell knows if my golf bag has an extra golf ball in there; he can tell by the weight of it. There ain't much in there. I carry my rain suit, three gloves and six balls.

[Q] Playboy: Are you superstitious about anything?

[A] Trevino: I don't use a yellow tee. Yellow is the color of weakness, cowardice. I'd hit a ball off the ground with a three wood before I'd use a yellow tee.

[Q] Playboy: When it comes to golf clubs, are you fickle?

[A] Trevino: Yes. I'm always looking. My caddie gets mad at me because even when I have a driver that I hit extremely well, I take a strange driver out there to try it. I'm always looking for that one jewel.

[Q] Playboy: What's the most important part of a golf club?

[A] Trevino: The shaft, no question. It's the hardest to replace. So if you break the head of a wooden club, keep the shaft.

[Q] Playboy: Have you made any changes in your game since joining the Senior Tour?

[A] Trevino: Yes, I cut most of the forward press out of my putting stroke. I set my hands ahead of the ball and swing the putter back simultaneously, with my hands and the handle. I get a much better roll of the ball.

[Q] Playboy: Are you having the most fun you've ever had in your life?

[A] Trevino: This is heaven. There's nothing better than this. If I had it to do all over, I wish I had been born fifty years old and come right onto the Senior Tour.

[Q] Playboy: Defend the proposition that while Nicklaus is probably the greatest golfer of all time, you are the most popular.

[A] Trevino: Well, I think that I'm one of the most popular. Fuzzy Zoeller is very popular. Chi Chi Rodriguez is very popular. No player who's ever played the game has been more popular than the king, Arnold Palmer. I have seen more people watch Palmer pack the trunk of his car in a tournament than watch another player, who is leading, putt out on eighteen. That's the truth! The man has charisma! He's got the people; they love him; I love him; I don't know any professional golfer who doesn't love him.

[Q] Playboy: Are you uneasy about the number of Japanese take-overs of American courses?

[A] Trevino: AS long as there's a stipulation that says a golf course must stay a golf course, I don't have a problem with it. Don't be afraid in selling to the Japanese. They can't cut it out of the ground and take it home to Tokyo; they gotta leave it here.

[Q] Playboy: What will golf be like in 2001?

[A] Trevino: Bigger and better. Golf is a sport that everyone is going to be playing. We'll have probably fifty or sixty million players. We'll have to go way out into the sticks to play. I predict we're going to build golf courses in areas where nothing grows, where the property has no value whatsoever. That's where you are going to have to play.