Playboy Interview: Daryl Gates

Over the weekend, he had been in Washington, attending Attorney General Richard Thornburgh's crime summit, which would conclude on Tuesday with a luncheon at the While House. But in one of those curious quirks of fate, as President George Bush was addressing the law-enforcement officials, telling them if they wanted to look at a real American hero, they should look at Los Angeles chief of police Daryl Gates, Gates was already back in Los Angeles becoming, it seemed, an all-American scapegoat.

Stepping off the plane Monday night in L.A., Gates got the news. Just after midnight on Sunday, a black motorist, Rodney King, had been slopped for speeding and, in an incident that has become infamous, was badly beaten by at least four L.A. cops while as many as 23 other officers stood nearby. A resident of a nearby apartment building taped the attack with his new video camera, and it first aired on TV shortly before Gates landed. "Chief, it's really bad," his driver said.

No one could imagine how bad. The Rodney King incident was to turn Los Angeles inside out and become a nationwide scandal. Black activists and civil libertarians held daily press conferences denouncing Gates. The Los Angeles Times attacked him with unusually aggressive coverage and editorials. Gates appointed an independent commission to look into police practices, only to be one-upped by Mayor Tom Bradley, who appointed a commission of his own. From then on, the mayor and the police chief, longtime rivals who speak to each other only when necessary, began plotting their moves like Kasparov and Karpov. The mayor publicly suggested that Gates resign. From there, the controversy mushroomed, splitting the city's political power structure in two. The chief refused to quit, the police commission (chosen by the mayor) suspended him and the city council--acting out of a combination of support for Gates and antipathy toward Bradley--went to court to get Gales his job back. Meanwhile, it seemed that the entire city was consumed in the good-cop/bad-cop problem. Community groups organized recall campaigns--some aimed at Gales, others at Bradley. By the time a judge ruled that Gales could keep his job, almost every branch of city government had been involved in the controversy.

Tall, tan and obsessively fit, Gales, who turns 65 in August, is experienced when it comes to being in the center of a storm. From the moment he look over as chief of police in 1978, he repeatedly managed to stun vast subgroups of the L.A. population with his seemingly thoughtless remarks.

Latinos, he joked, rose slowly through the ranks of the L.A.P.D., possibly because they were "lazy." Women had their place but not as officers of the L.A.P.D. As far as recruiting more gays--who'd want to work with one? And--worst of all--the reason black suspects were dying from vigorous application of the choke hold, Gates once volunteered, might be that "veins or arteries of blacks do not open as fast as they do in normal people."

There was more. Last fall, Gales told a Congressional committee, "All casual drug users ought to be taken out and shot."

Almost always, the chief deflected blame for his remarks to his nemesis, the L.A. Times. He claimed he was misquoted, misunderstood, bamboozled.

Whatever Gates really meant by his perceived slurs, his actions generally spoke louder than his words. Following a court dictum, he drastically changed the complexion of the police department, hiring thousands of women, Latinos and blacks--then defending them, if need be, in the same paternalistic way he defended any of his officers who came under attack. And he continued to run a department of 8300 that was widely considered the finest in the country. His officers adored him, L.A. conservatives made him their hero and even the police commission--which hired Gates and would later try to suspend him--gave him consistently high marks. Popularity polls named him the most respected Republican in Los Angeles.

Gates's biggest problem, it seemed, was that he had come from a time and place that were no longer relevant. Born in 1926, he grew up in Highland Park, a blue-collar suburb near Los Angeles, where men were white, boys would be boys and women had their place. Although his family was poor, Gates likes to point out, it never occurred to him to steal somebody's bottle of milk--so much for the theory that poverty leads to crime.

After serving two years in the Navy during World War Two, Gales returned home to be a lawyer. But after completing three years at USC, and needing a job to support his pregnant wife, he heard that the police academy was recruiting officers. Thinking it would be easy work for a while, he signed up.

As a rookie, Gates was noticed right away by William Parker, the new, no-nonsense chief of police who cleaned up the department's corrupt ways and set its us-against-them tone for the decades to follow. Gales became his driver and bodyguard and climbed the ranks fast.

Among law-enforcement professionals, Gates is considered an innovator. He developed the concept for SWAT (Special Weapons and Tactics), which is now used around the world as an offense against terrorist tactics. In I983, he also persuaded the board of education to devise a drug-education program that his police officers could teach in schools. Galled DARE (Drug Abuse Resistance Education), that program is now offered throughout the U.S.

Despite attempts by Gales and his lieutenants to keep pace with the rapidly changing landscape of Los Angeles, disturbing trends continued. The L.A.P.D., unlike any other police force in America, is accountable to no one. The chief of police may serve as long as he wishes. He can be removed, according to city charter, only if caught committing a crime.

The department seemed untouchable, as well. For decades, district attorneys, liberal-minded politicians, and even the mayor rarely spoke above, a whisper when outraged by what seemed another incident of excessive force by the L.A.P.D. The L.A.P.D. responded to these charges, saying they were part of the department's attempt to attack crime before it happened. If occasionally, they beat up the wrong guy, this was the price society had to pay.

And, in truth, as street violence and gang warfare grew worse, most Angelenos grudgingly preferred a strong police force.

And so it went--until a plumber with a camcorder caught a scene that horrified and galvanized Americans more than anything they had seen on TV since the Gulf war.

Months before, hoping to get some straight talk on crime in America, Playboy had sent Diane K. Shah to interview Gates. A journalist and novelist, Shah was winding up her extensive talks with Gates when the Rodney King beating stormed the airwaves. Her report:

"The first time I met 'the chief as he likes to be called, was the morning after the death of Tina Kerbrat, L.A.'s first female police officer to be killed in the line of duty. He walked into a press conference and angrily attacked the man who shot her, calling him, 'an El Salvadoran asshole' and, in true Gates fashion, stirred up a storm of protest. But later that morning, as we talked, he seemed visibly shaken by Kerbrat's death, and after our three-hour interview, he thanked me for taking his mind off the tragedy.

"He was, as always, impeccably turned out. His suits are beautifully tailored. Often, he wears a pocket kerchief. Always a DARE pin. There was no hint that morning, in either his appearance or his responses, that he had been up all night at the hospital, comforting Kerbrat's husband and her distraught partner. Nor did he mention it.

"The chief has often been called charming, even by his enemies. If that is the correct word, it is not displayed in a slick, gushing manner. Rather, Gates is soft-spoken, somewhat shy, self-deprecating and able to poke fun at himself His manner, though, can belie his words. One of the most striking things about him is that you can. talk with him and find yourself appreciating his intelligence, the rationale behind his thinking--even if you don't necessarily agree with it--and his deep concerns about today's troubled society. But when confronted with the transcripts of those conversations--the black-and-white words stripped of their low-key delivery--what you have, at times, sounds like the ravings of a narrow-minded, stubborn, unenlightened despot. It is those words, appearing in print, that have often caused the chief so much grief.

"We spoke three times after the King incident. The first time was two days after the video tape hit the airwaves. All day, a steady stream of officials had paraded in and out of Gates's office, as public outrage over the sadistic beating began to heat up. It was questionable, however, whether Gates fully understood the impact the incident would have. Even when we talked again, he was stubbornly blaming his enemies for many of his troubles."

[Q] Playboy: You looked at the Rodney King tapes for the first time yesterday morning. What are your thoughts?

[A] Gates: It's an example of many things that probably should be dealt with. Clearly, we have a situation that has caused great concern--outrage is the word that's been used most often. And I think the most critical comments have come from civil libertarians, particularly the American Civil Liberties Union. And the statements are alarming to me. Because what they are saying, in effect, is a repudiation of everything I thought the A.C.L.U. stood for--due process, presumed innocence and right to a fair trial before you're lynched. And what they are calling for is a lynching.

[Q] Playboy: You yourself said that you were horrified when you saw the tapes.

[A] Gates: I was. But I said we ought not to make any judgments. Particularly, I ought not to. I tried to explain that by saying, "I am the one who will make the final decision on these officers."

[Q] Playboy: Still, people were genuinely horrified by what they saw.

[A] Gates: I'm more horrified by some of the reaction I see this week. It's not that we're not used to violence. Violence happens. And it's not that we're not used to an errant police officer here and there. But I'm horrified by the indictment of the good work of more than eight thousand police officers, day in, day out, trudging along, doing a wonderful job--five of them having been shot just a couple of weeks ago, and one of them losing her life. All of that's forgotten.

[Q] Playboy: You're referring to Tina Kerbrat, the first female police officer in L.A. to be killed, and the wounding, in separate incidents, of four other officers.

[A] Gates: I think the vast majority of people are outraged. And they have a right to be. But I think a lot of people are also saying, "C'mon. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt." They're saying, "You know, this wasn't the nicest guy in the world. He's a parolee. Armed robber. Arrested several times for assaulting other people. Driving one hundred fifteen miles an hour, in two thousand pounds of metal, menacing every single person on the street."

[Q] Playboy: Has that been established? It's hard to imagine any stretch of road in L.A. where you can go that fast.

[A] Gates: I know. So can you imagine a guy goin' one hundred fifteen miles--a convict--a man on parole? And what did I hear about him? "He had a job. On Monday. And this prevented him from going to his job." How touching. And he has two fine children. I hear those things and I'm amazed, amazed that people won't put this in a proper perspective.

[Q] Playboy: Given what was shown on the tape, it's hard to share your perspective.

[A] Gates: We are showing a great deal of sympathy for this guy. And, you know, maybe we ought to. He certainly didn't deserve what occurred. But on the other hand, I don't think he deserves this picture of a model citizen that is being painted. "Cute little kids, and I'm gonna get a job, and all I wanna do is set my life straight."

[Q] Playboy: Isn't this a justification--

[A] Gates: We polled a lot of people, and some of the good people are saying--shockingly, maybe--"Ah, he probably deserved it. I didn't see anything wrong with all that." See, there are other people on the other side.

[Three weeks later, as Mayor Tom Bradley was preparing to ask Gates to resign and the police commission was about to suspend him temporarily, Gates was asked if his perceptions had changed.]

[Q] Playboy: In hindsight, was your initial reaction to the incident appropriate?

[A] Gates: People continued to harp on the fact that my initial reaction was so bland. I keep trying to point out that I had to put on my hat as a judge, knowing that this thing ultimately would come to me for adjudication. But, as a matter of fact, a day or two later, when I went before the police commission, I remember saying it was "shocking." I worried about that, thinking, What will happen if I adjudicate these cases? They will take it to court and say, "You made up your mind before you had an investigation."

[Q] Playboy: Do you think that if you had said, "This horrifies me; we've got to get rid of these people," you would have changed the course of events?

[A] Gates: Maybe; I'm not so sure. It certainly would have given them less of an opportunity to pick at me. But since then, I don't know how many times I've declared how bad this thing was.

[Q] Playboy: Did the message come across?

[A] Gates: By Wednesday, I was able to give my full reaction, because Internal Affairs had investigated the incident. I had been given a report on it and knew the tape was valid--in other words, it had not been tampered with. And by Thursday, on PrimeTime Live, I indicated that I had been sickened.

[Q] Playboy: Two of the officers present during the attack allegedly falsified their reports. How do you feel about that?

[A] Gates: These are individuals who really don't respect department rules, department procedures or the values of this department. If they beat somebody, well, sure, they're going to falsify the report. And if they've got that kind of mind-set, they don't mind making racial remarks on a tape. If this thing hadn't been video-taped, I can't believe we would not have had a complaint and, ultimately, an investigation. There were enough witnesses, and King's injuries were severe enough, to have taken action against the officers. I really believe that would have taken place had it not been video-taped.

[Q] Playboy: Why were you so vehement in your defense of the officers?

[A] Gates: It's instinctive. I do defend my officers until I find out they're wrong. Somebody once said I was paternalistic. I was never offended by that. I'm like a father, in that initially, my reaction is going to be, "Hey, that's not my kid. My kid didn't do that." That doesn't mean I don't follow through. When I find they're wrong, I discipline them. Sometimes I shove them from the family. I'm a good father who makes sure that his kids conduct themselves properly. That's my reputation, and I'm very, very proud of that. [After another four weeks, Gates was again asked about the King incident.]

[Q] Playboy: You've had a chance to read the report from your internal-affairs department. Have your feelings changed?

[A] Gates: No. My feelings are exactly what they were in the beginning. They had somebody in a postpursuit situation. He was acting crazy. He was big, very big. Very strong. He rushed the officers. He was Tasered, which was normal procedure. He was struck by a baton. He went down. He tried to get up. Several times, he tried to get up. He was told to stay down. And, at that point, the sergeant lost it. [Quietly] In my judgment.

[Q] Playboy: How should it have been handled?

[A] Gates: There were enough officers and they should have dealt with it. I think it was the sergeant's responsibility. And the one officer, Laurence M. Powell, I think reacted excessively. Unfortunately, the two others kind of followed along. I feel sorriest for Theodore J. Briseno because of that one kick. I'm not sure he really meant to do that. He's the one who pushed Powell back the first time.

[Q] Playboy: How would you rate the media coverage of the event?

[A] Gates: I've seen several articles about how "the chief doesn't understand that the buck stops with him." How in the hell do they believe the buck hasn't stopped with me? I am the one who's taking all the flak and I'm assuming the responsibility to go forward and fix what's wrong. My life has not been a happy one. It would be easy for me to walk away and retire. I've got a big fat retirement, I've got a place at the beach. But I'm staying here to fix the problem. Time magazine, Newsweek, The Washington Post, they all said exactly the same thing: that I don't understand that the buck stops here. What they're implying is that I should take all the blame and retire. That is not, in my judgment, what "The buck stops here" means. It means I take the responsibility to fix what's wrong. And if I find, in a very careful assessment, that someone didn't do his job, then I will take action. But I don't just do it right off the top of my head. I'm fair and I'm objective and thoughtful, and I will take the flak until I find that somebody else is wrong--and then I'll go after him, with a vengeance.

[Q] Playboy: Why did this become a nationwide scandal?

[A] Gates: I don't think I have it completely analyzed. But some things come to mind: One, clearly there was a void in the news. The conflict in the Middle East had ended and there was nothing there to fill the tube. They were looking for something startling, and this came along. And it was perfect for television, because it was visual.

[Q] Playboy: We'll buy that for about a week.

[A] Gates: New York had a couple of cases even more severe than this one. I'd been reading about those and I thought, Golly, a murder, five officers indicted for killing somebody; and then another case where they pulled a suspect out of a cab and pistol-whipped him. I thought, Gee whiz, that's pretty bad. Why isn't there a focus on New York?

[Q] Playboy: Why do you think there isn't?

[A] Gates: I really believe everybody jumped on me because I said the incident was an "aberration." That was a bad word. I've been meaning to look it up in the dictionary to find out why it's such a bad word. I still believe it's an aberration. I think the L.A. reputation was, and has been for such a long time, that of an incorruptible department with tremendous honesty and integrity, high principles and values. It just couldn't happen in Los Angeles--and it did. I think that added to the story. It shocked people. They felt betrayed.

[Q] Playboy: But what about the local reaction? Every group in the city has jumped on the police-brutality band wagon.

[A] Gates: I think you have to look at what they're jumping on.

[Q] Playboy: You.

[A] Gates: Yeah. I understand that. Well, I don't understand some of it, I understand part of it. I understand the A.C.L.U. They don't like me and have never liked me. I've been critical of them, very critical of them, and this gave them the opportunity to say, "Boy, we're going to get him."

[Q] Playboy: Do you think the L.A. Times is out to get you, too? It called for your resignation only days after the beating.

[A] Gates: I think the L.A. Times is up to here with my criticism of it. I've never given a speech in which I haven't criticized the L.A. Times. Although I've praised it as a great newspaper, I've always said that a great newspaper ought to be more careful with the truth. I used to send editors copies of stories from other newspapers, saying, "The problem with your editorials is you read and believe your own newspaper. This is what somebody else said about the same thing." I think they just got fed up, like a lot of other people, and said, "Hey, this is the time: Let's go get him!"

[Q] Playboy: Is Mayor Bradley getting back at you, too?

[A] Gates: I think some of the people in his office are.

[Q] Playboy: Would this have something to do with the fact that your department is investigating Bradley for possible financial misconduct?

[A] Gates: Yes, I think that's another "coincidence," if you will. The LA. Times ran a series of articles on Bradley and his financial dealings, and they accused several people from his administration of improper activity. Some of my people came to me and said, "These are in violation of the law. What do we do?" I said, "We do what we always do."

[Q] Playboy: Is the investigation into possible wrongdoing still going on?

[A] Gates: We have been proceeding with a complete investigation. We started out with two investigators and we've had to put six people on. It's still ongoing.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think that's why the mayor asked you to resign?

[A] Gates: I hope not, but it's sure coincidental with our investigation. Whether it is or it isn't, what it says is that if political control is obtained by the mayor of this city, there won't be any more investigations by the Los Angeles Police Department--that's for sure.

[Q] Playboy: The most consistent complaint against the department is excessive or unreasonable force. It has been a recurring criticism throughout your tenure as chief of police. Not long ago, there was the Thirty-ninth and Dalton incident, in which eighty cops looking for drugs destroyed four apartments in two buildings and terrorized fifty-five citizens. These incidents of brutality crop up repeatedly, and invariably with blacks.

[A] Gates: I think that's your impression. I know of no proof that this is true.

[Q] Playboy: Is there more fear in the minds of police officers concerning blacks?

[A] Gates: I think there's more fear when they are in an area where the potential is greater for some kind of violent activity. There are many communities--black communities--where there's not an ounce of fear. There's no violence there. In some communities that are predominantly Caucasian, there is a fear, because of motorcycle gangs, things of that nature. So it's the apprehension that comes from the officer's knowledge of what happens there.

[Q] Playboy: Do incidents of brutality happen to white people, and we just don't read about them?

[A] Gates: We have complaints from a broad cross-section of the public. It isn't just one group that complains to us. But it's much more fashionable to say, "Well, it's because there's racism"; that's an easy thing to latch on to. And, unfortunately, it's latched on to all the time, whether there's any truth in it or not.

[Q] Playboy: Recently, Jamaal Wilkes, the former LA. Laker, was hauled out of his car and handcuffed supposedly because the light over his license plate was out. It's hard to recall a white athlete's being removed from his car and handcuffed.

[A] Gates: I don't know that a white athlete would necessarily complain about it. "I was stopped because I was white." What's usually said is, "I was stopped because I was black," regardless of why they're stopped. Or "I was stopped because I was in a fancy car and I'm a kid." I hear that from white kids all the time. We always reach for these excuses, rather than deal in a factual way. I wouldn't know Jamaal Wilkes if I saw him.

[Q] Playboy: He's tall.

[A] Gates: Yeah, tall. A lot of tall people out there. Some people have such egos. They say to themselves, "They should have known who I was." Or "Can't they tell the difference between a criminal and a decent person?" How do I know?

[Q] Playboy: Yes, but if a police officer asked us to get out of the car--at gunpoint--it's hard to say how decently we would feel like behaving.

[A] Gates: You'd get out of the car. [Snaps his fingers] Just like that.

[Q] Playboy: But we'd be angry--

[A] Gates: It's all right to be angry. That's not the point. The point is that people believe that an officer ought to be able to tell the difference between a good person and a criminal. We have a policy on the use of force, and our officers are well trained in that. They are judged on all of that. If there's a shooting, they are judged. Full and complete reports. This is a well-run, well-disciplined department. People understand their jobs, and there's no desire to exceed their authority. But they're working in a very difficult world. A very violent world.

[Q] Playboy: But officers do exceed their authority sometimes.

[A] Gates: Of course. I mean, people make mistakes in every walk of life. Our people are not perfect; we don't sign them up on some far-off planet and bring them into police service. They are products of society, and let me tell you, the human product today often is pretty weak. A lot of these young people we're bringing on today grew up in a troubled society.

[Q] Playboy: Is it a problem finding qualified officers?

[A] Gates: [Sarcastically] The two officers involved in this [King] incident are longtime veterans. One's got four years, and the other's got about nine, ten months, you know?

[Q] Playboy: Are you saying they were not qualified to be out there?

[A] Gates: It's always a problem in the department. A police officer takes a minimum of four to five years before he's earning his salary. Before he knows where the bathroom is, really.

[Q] Playboy: That makes sense. But in the meantime--

[A] Gates: Police officers make mistakes. When you look at the police profession and relate it to almost any other profession, I think you'll find fewer mistakes. We operate in a far more complicated and difficult arena than almost any other profession. Nobody else has to make the kinds of decisions that police officers do. Nobody else has to get his blood pressure and his pulse rate up so high, and then drop it down and make an immediate decision based on a variety of factors. And then we expect perfection.

[Q] Playboy: Some people say you're tougher on your own men when discipline or honesty breaks down than you are when they violate the rights of others.

[A] Gates: We do not teach our people to steal, or to cheat, or to be dishonest. We do teach them to use force. We hope that it's been used appropriately and in concert with our policy. But there's a lot of room for discussion in these kinds of things. I recognize that. I pay attention to that. And I can be very hard if I think it's a very wanton act. I'm very, very hard on my people if I think they've just abused somebody. If I think they were doing their very best to deal with a tough situation, and they used some force, and perhaps they got the last whack in--they didn't mean to, but they did. It's tough to distinguish whether the last whack was necessary. I give 'em the benefit of the doubt. I think they deserve it.

[Q] Playboy: Meanwhile, the city of L.A. paid out twenty-three million dollars in damages in the past five years to people who brought suit against the L.A.P.D. for violation of civil rights.

[A] Gates: Right. And even if we're operating in complete good faith, and we don't recognize Jamaal Wilkes when he gets out of his red car, or whatever color car he has, we're immediately suspect. And we get sued.

[Q] Playboy: It's suspect why he was stopped in the first place.

[A] Gates: What I understand is that they stopped him because [his license plate] wasn't illuminated. Before he left, they told him, "By the way, your license is about to expire," and then a warrant came up and it appeared he fit the description on the warrant. And he was in a high-crime area.

[Q] Playboy: Then they decided, after they had handcuffed him, that he didn't fit the description on the warrant.

[A] Gates: In the particular area in which he was stopped, there was a series of robberies going on, and the captain said they were using [traffic] violations as a way of stopping people. As a captain, I used to tell my people, "If you're a good police officer, you look at traffic violations. You look at equipment violations. One, it's in the best interests of traffic safety. Two, it gives you an opportunity to take a look at this person in a high-crime area and make a judgment. You may see something in the car that causes you to be even more suspicious." If people think we have some secret device with which we can suddenly tell who's a criminal and who isn't a criminal, they're foolish. We don't.

[Q] Playboy: Isn't this kind of a shoot-first, ask-questions-later approach?

[A] Gates: Let me just say this: People have to grapple with the fact that they hire the police to do what the police do. And then they get mad about it.

[Q] Playboy: What is the most outraged response you have ever received?

[A] Gates: Oh, boy. I've had a lot of them. I think, maybe, the sheer numbers of telephone calls and mail were from Operation Rescue.

[Q] Playboy: The group that organized the anti-abortion demonstration?

[A] Gates: Yeah, when they came here and tried to close down a clinic or two. They didn't like the way we got them to move.

[Q] Playboy: How was that?

[A] Gates: First, we asked them to move--we were very nice, actually. When they didn't, we told them they were under arrest and asked them to get up and walk over. And when they refused, we used basic techniques to get them to respond.

[Q] Playboy: That sounds like police talk.

[A] Gates: They didn't move, so we used a grip. Nothing very harmful. I guess it was a little painful. In a way, it was kind of comical. They had designed some really fine tactics to thwart law enforcement. Squiggling, doing all kinds of things. And we had developed some tactics, too. We used our horses, we thought, very effectively. We used them to block off those who wanted to come in. And then, horses being horses, they have to take care of bodily functions. So a lot of that was right there on the sidewalk. And as we asked people to move--as we helped them move--many of them would be slid right through that stuff. And you'd see them calculating, Well, I think I'll move. [Laughs] I kind of chuckled over that.

[Q] Playboy: How many did you arrest?

[A] Gates: I think we arrested three hundred forty the first time and two hundred fifty the next time. We have since convicted almost all of them.

[Q] Playboy: On what charges?

[A] Gates: In most cases, it was trespassing. Or resisting arrest. All of the Christian [radio] stations were down on me for doing that. I had Congressmen and state legislators writing to me, telling me what a horrible person I was. They would extol the virtues of these people, saying that they were all good Christians and all good folks, and I ought to recognize that. And, I suppose, I could have clone that personally, but I couldn't do that as chief of police. There is something in the Constitution of the United States called equal protection. So if I go out and treat a demonstration by the revolutionary Communist Party, which can get pretty violent, differently, then I would be treating them in a preferential way. I would be saying, "Well, this is a nice group, and this is a bad group, so we'll treat the bad group differently from the way we treat the nice group." I've never been able to get that point across.

[Q] Playboy: Still, it seems you're always backtracking. At a press conference, after Tina Kerbrat was killed, you referred to the man who shot her as "an El Salvadoran asshole."

[A] Gates: Oh--did I say that?

[Q] Playboy: That and more. You said, "This is an asshole. An absolute no-good son of a bitch asshole."

[A] Gates: Did I say that? [Laugh] Hmmm.

[Q] Playboy: It seems that you have a pattern of saying something inflammatory, then, when everybody comes after you, it's the media's fault.

[A] Gates: What I criticize people for is the misinterpretation of some of the things I say. And it bothers me, because I'm pretty direct. I think people object to that directness. They want you to be bland. And when you're not bland, they won't make the second inquiry of, "What did you mean by that, Chief?" When I called this man an El Salvadoran asshole, why didn't they ask, "Do you mean that for all El Salvadorans?" They don't ask that. They make the interpretation themselves. I'd be very happy to explain what I said. And this is a good example. I didn't criticize all El Salvadorans. Others are even suggesting I was criticizing all Hispanics. Tina's maiden name was Zapata. She was a Hispanic. You think I would criticize all Hispanics? I was criticizing one individual.

[Q] Playboy: Another statement you made resulted in a one-hundred-seventy-thousand-dollar judgment against you personally. A man sued the police for breaking his nose when they searched his home. During the trial, you said, "[He's] lucky that's all he had broken. How much is a broken nose worth? I don't think it's worth anything."

[A] Gates: My statement was totally accurate. Anyway, the statement had nothing to do with the lawsuit.

[Q] Playboy: Weren't you sued for making that statement?

[A] Gates: The suit was taking place and I was asked to testify. Which I did. I came out of court. And I was attacked by the media. [Laughs] No--I was interviewed. I simply wanted to bring to the public's attention facts that were not brought to the jury's attention. I told the media what I thought of this case--that the award was wrong. The plaintiff's attorney went back into court and read newspaper accounts of what I was alleged to have said to the media. And you know--you're in the media--that it's not always accurate reporting.

[Q] Playboy: But you did say it.

[A] Gates: Some of it I may have said, some I didn't say. But they should've gotten me back in there, on the witness stand, under oath, and said, "Chief--what did you say? What did you mean when you said these things?" Never once. I was simply voicing my opinion. And those newspaper clippings, that hearsay evidence, was what the jury used to award a huge amount of damages against me.

[Q] Playboy: In California, hasn't the law been changed so that the city will pay, even though the suit is against you?

[A] Gates: The city can pick up the damages; it doesn't have to. Think about the chilling factor in that. I don't have one hundred seventy thousand dollars. I'd have to sell everything I own. Forty years in law enforcement, I'd be ruined. Then I've got to go beg some politicians who don't like me--this is a great opportunity for them to say, "Hey, Chief, you're on your own. We're not gonna pay anything." Think what that does. It says, "Hey, Chief, don't open your mouth--don't tell the public anything. Don't let them know what the real facts are in this case. Don't tell the truth." And what does it tell the police officers? Don't do your work, because you're liable to wind up in court, being sued. That, to me, is probably the most frightening thing that's happening in the United States today.

[Q] Playboy: It might be more frightening if police thought they could get away with excessive force.

[A] Gates: We really need some cool heads, and we don't have any. Attorneys are going more and more for punitive damages against police officers. We had a case, a baseball player, Joe Morgan--

[Q] Playboy: Police mistook him for a drug courier at the airport, right?

[A] Gates: A jury decided that because of his illegal detention--and it probably didn't take more than five minutes--to award punitive damages of more than five hundred thousand dollars against that police officer. How can they do that?

[Q] Playboy: Morgan doesn't have a legitimate complaint?

[A] Gates: For five hundred thousand dollars? Can you really equate that? Juries equate it by saying, "OK, this was an illegal detention. He was embarrassed. He's a baseball player." Is that worth the entire existence of a police officer, everything he's accumulated? What if the city council hadn't picked up that tab?

[Q] Playboy: But how do we protect citizens from that kind of treatment?

[A] Gates: Look, you have to ask why the officer did this. We have to say, "He made a mistake. But I can understand. Given the narcotic trafficking at the airport, I want the police out there, doing that kind of work. If that mistake is made, then maybe it's worth a few bucks if I've been injured or embarrassed." Certainly, it's worth a tremendous apology. But five hundred thousand dollars out of the officer's pocket? Baloney.

[Q] Playboy: It is difficult, but--

[A] Gates: Let's turn it around. You don't say a word when you go though airport security and they look at your luggage, they pat you down. Have you ever had them open up your bag?

[Q] Playboy: They do that to everybody.

[A] Gates: How many terrorists have you seen on airplanes? How many times in terms of the number of passenger miles? Very few. How many times have the narcotics been coming through airports? All the time.

[Q] Playboy: Getting back to the suit against you, the city council did vote to pay the one-hundred-seventy-thousand-dollar judgment, correct?

[A] Gates: Yeah. But it won't be the last time [that I'll have to ask]. There must be against me right now well over a billion dollars' worth of suits.

[Q] Playboy: A billion?

[A] Gates: Oh, yeah. At any one time.

[Q] Playboy: Well, the city has paid out twenty-three million dollars in five years, which supposedly is the highest record in the nation.

[A] Gates: [Reading from a sheaf of papers on his desk] These are the facts. This comes right out of the city attorney's office. This is what was settled in 1990; these are the actual cases. This is a shooting case, a shooting case, pursuit, traffic, pursuit, traffic, pursuit, traffic--an awful lot of them are traffic accidents. We bump into somebody and they file a traffic complaint. And here's one excessive force. This is the big one: the Thirty-ninth and Dalton Street case. This is the one in which we said mea culpa, we did it, we are wrong. Three million. This payout is about two point five million dollars more than any possible damage, but the city was trying to do its very best--

[Q] Playboy: Four apartments were destroyed, weren't they?

[A] Gates: Yeah, but you could have repaired them all and they could have all bought brand-new cars for five hundred grand and then some.

[Q] Playboy: None of the eighty officers who participated in the raid were fired?

[A] Gates: We're still awaiting boards of rights. So far, thirty-eight officers have been disciplined.

[Q] Playboy: And four are going to trial?

[A] Gates: Three are in criminal trials. One has pled nolo contendere, so there are three more. But I'd like to point out, the number of uses of force came down in 1990; so did the ratio of uses of force to arrests. And in the number of cases where the suspect was injured--only one thousand, eight hundred forty-one out of more than three hundred nine thousand arrests in 1990. What it really means is that for almost two hundred arrests, you get one injury.

[Q] Playboy: What criticism has most angered you?

[A] Gates: I think the view that somehow I'm a bigot, a racist or prejudiced against gays or against this group or that group. Because I'm not bigoted, I'm not prejudiced. I say what I think sometimes.

[Q] Playboy: We've noticed.

[A] Gates: Yeah. [Laughs] Sometimes people get a little perturbed at that, but I think there're too many people who don't say what they think.

[Q] Playboy: Your most controversial statement was your explanation of why blacks were dying when officers applied something called the "carotid hold"--a type of choke hold. "It's possible the veins and arteries of blacks' necks don't open as fast as they do in normal people." You said that in 1982 and have been backpedaling on that one ever since.

[A] Gates: I haven't backpedaled on it at all. I have said that the Times did a lousy job--the Times reporter knew exactly what I was talking about. I will admit, I used some very poor language.

[Q] Playboy: But you meant it, all the same?

[A] Gates: We were applying the modified carotid, where we place pressure on the carotid arteries that supply blood to the brain, and we had some individuals who were dying. Most of those individuals were black. So there was a strong feeling that there might be something in some blacks that we didn't know about. Like sickle-cell anemia, which visits blacks almost exclusively, and their very high incidence of heart disease--those kinds of things. And it might have been that we were overlooking something.

[Q] Playboy: Or maybe you applied the carotid hold to a higher number of blacks, right?

[A] Gates: That's exactly what everyone said. But we'd been applying that carotid as long as I can remember and we had no problems with it. Suddenly, it emerged. Since then, I've had doctors write to me and say, "Chief, you are absolutely right. There's a sudden-death syndrome in blacks that no one understands." There's still research being conducted in that area by the military. No one wants to talk about it.

[Q] Playboy: How is the carotid applied? You push on both sides of the neck?

[A] Gates: Right. With the forearm and the biceps. You bring them together and it cuts off the blood supply to the brain.

[Q] Playboy: When did you get the doctors' research that backed up your statement?

[A] Gates: Some of it came in at that time, and some of it's been going on. I read articles not too long ago--[Suddenly, the lights go out in Gates's office. Unperturbed, he continues talking until the lights just as mysteriously go back on]--articles about the military finding this sudden-death syndrome among blacks. That blacks just would die after a lot of physical exertion. There was no real explanation for it. I was not speaking with racial bias. It was nothing more than great compassion for our not knowing something that might be creating a hazard to a group. I was talking about a normally functioning body. The reporter knew exactly what I meant. And he turned it into a racist statement. I underwent a hell of a barrage over that, and I will never forget some of the people who barraged me. I'm serious. I will never, ever forget.

[Q] Playboy: Do you hold grudges?

[A] Gates: For that one, I will always hold a grudge. Always. I'll always hold a grudge against the Times, against that reporter. I will always hold a grudge against many people who spoke at a police-commission hearing. I will hold grudges against all of them. Because I think they were way outa line. Way outa line.

[Q] Playboy: Last fall, you made headlines again when you testified before Congress and said, "All casual drug users ought to be taken out and shot."

[A] Gates: I wanted to make a point. And I knew if I'd said, "Oh, casual drug users--we oughta put those people in jail," [laughs] no one would've ever heard that statement.

[Q] Playboy: So what were you trying to say?

[A] Gates: I was trying to say, I'd take them out and shoot 'em. [Laughs] The more I say it, the more I like it.

[Q] Playboy: What about the drug pushers, aren't they the real problem?

[A] Gates: Do you really believe we have people pushing drugs? No way. You don't have to push something when you've got a willing market, when you've got people out there looking for them, grasping for them, paying whatever the price is. We don't have to have pushers. We do have some sellers.

[Q] Playboy: The point being, what?

[A] Gates: The pushers in America have become the casual drug users who are saying, "No big deal. You can use drugs and get by." That's the casual drug user. And that's the real pusher in America, and has been for a long time. These casual drug users use for only one purpose: They want to party. And most of them don't stay casual, because they can't.

[Q] Playboy: You believe all drug users are addicts?

[A] Gates: I'm not sure there is such a thing as a casual drug user. I really believe that anyone who's involved in drugs has some fundamental addiction.

[Q] Playboy: What kind of reaction did you get to your statement?

[A] Gates: All the marijuana users were mad at me. And the parents whose kids use marijuana. "Gonna take my kid out and shoot him? That's terrible." I got some of the worst letters I've ever gotten from--obviously--pot smokers.

[Q] Playboy: Your son has been arrested on drug charges, hasn't he?

[A] Gates: Yes. When he was arrested, there was a great deal of publicity. Of course, it was a big story, because I was chief of police. I don't blame anyone for it. Except my son.

[Q] Playboy: How did you find out that he had a drug problem?

[A] Gates: It's a long, sad story. He's been involved in narcotics and drugs for a long time.

[Q] Playboy: He started as a casual user?

[A] Gates: Sure.

[Q] Playboy: In high school?

[A] Gates: Oh, probably before high school. And I was in a state of denial for years. I knew better, but there was no way I could admit it. And when I did, when I took him for treatment, I got the same b.s. that so many got in the late Sixties and early Seventies. Sheer, unadulterated b.s. from psychologists and psychiatrists. "Oh, there's nothing to it. He'll grow out of it." He managed to completely spellbind every psychologist and psychiatrist that he talked to, to the point where he just wrapped them right around his little old drug-using finger. So, as a result, while I knew better, and while I pride myself in probably knowing more about drugs and drug addicts than most who are in the business, by that time, it was too late.

[Q] Playboy: Too late for what?

[A] Gates: I don't want to say too late. That's a note of finality. I'm forever hopeful. But I think that with any addict, if you're able to get at it in the early stages, your chances of solving the problem are much greater than if you let it go on. You either have to let it go on--run its course until they burn themselves out or die--or face an almost insurmountable task of curing.

[Q] Playboy: How has it affected you?

[A] Gates: One of the things people don't understand about using drugs: It doesn't just hurt the person who's addicted. That's the most asinine view I've ever heard. It hurts the people around them who are sober far more, in my judgment, than it hurts the individual who's running around happy, using the damned drugs. I mean, it just destroys families. It's worse than death. Because death ends. The person dies, you have a service and the memories are there always. Usually, the memories are the good things. Not so with drugs. The turmoil is as great. The loss is as great as if the person died, except he hasn't died. And this goes on and on and on. The person continues to hurt you. The person will continue to steal from you, to lie to you, to harm you, to harm others. They're always there, doing those kinds of things.

[Q] Playboy: You don't believe in rehabilitation, then?

[A] Gates: Oh, I believe in rehabilitation. I believe in it passionately. But what people don't understand is that it is an incredibly difficult thing to do. The loss rate of those in programs is enormous. Most people in rehabilitation won't tell you that, because it's bad for business. The good ones will tell you that.

[Q] Playboy: You've often said that drugs are the biggest threat America has faced.

[A] Gates: It's the tragedy of the century. And I'm talking about World War One, World War Two, the Great Depression and all the other terrible disasters that have hit this nation. I think drug use has done more to this nation, to its young people, to its psyche and to its soul--if it has a soul--than any of the other crises we've ever had. That's why it's been part of my agenda, to see if we can't change that. And the change is so simple.

[Q] Playboy: Is it?

[A] Gates: Sure! Don't use drugs, for God's sakes! [Laughs] I mean, that's so simple. It really is.

[Q] Playboy: Is there any hope?

[A] Gates: We're seeing, I think, a new generation that is going to grow up and largely say no to drugs. I see that as the first shining ray of hope. It's one of the reasons that I'm so abusive about casual drug users. I see them as the people who are undermining the whole effort.

[Q] Playboy: Assuming drugs are the number-one problem you face, what is number two?

[A] Gates: Violence. That's what people fear the most. This is a very violent society. And we seem to, in many respects, look at violence as a wonderful thing.

[Q] Playboy: Wonderful?

[A] Gates: Well, we do. We go to a Dirty Harry movie, and everybody jumps up and claps. The Stallone movies are very violent. We seem to eat that stuff up. It seems we need to take a look at that.

[Q] Playboy: Have you raised these issues in the entertainment industry?

[A] Gates: I have on the drug issue and they responded well. But they really flinch when you talk about violence. And I understand. That's where they make their money. What they're saying is, "We're giving the public what they have an appetite for." Which is true. I just think somewhere along the line, the country has to recognize that movies contribute to the amount of violence we have.

[Q] Playboy: One of the things you did that surprised and enraged a lot of people was to advocate banning the sale of assault weapons in California. How do you feel about banning handguns as well?

[A] Gates: What we have done in California, in terms of placing a restriction on buying handguns, as well as any guns now, is to have a fifteen-day waiting period. This allows us to look at those who have some mental problem or suspected mental problem; we were never able to do that in the past. I would add something else: I believe that carrying a concealed weapon ought to be a felony. It's not. It's a misdemeanor, and it's treated very lightly by the courts of this state. Having said that, I would not impose any additional restrictions on handguns. I think you have a right to own one.

[Q] Playboy: In the press conference concerning Officer Kerbrat's death, you said, "Is this a civilized society any longer? We're beginning to question that." Were you referring to all of Los Angeles or to a certain element within it?

[A] Gates: An element. Unfortunately, the element is much larger than it ought to be. And we're not doing what we need to do to control it. We can't even define that element. We as a nation can't even go out and tell you what that group consists of. We don't know.

[Q] Playboy: What can you do about it?

[A] Gates: I think a lot of things could be done, in terms of being harsher in developing a control mechanism for those who don't want to live by society's rules. And we have not done a job in placing adequate controls on those individuals.

[Q] Playboy: What would be adequate?

[A] Gates: I think we have to completely shift our system and our thinking about it. Because, right now, criminals own the whole system. A crime is committed. We go out, we investigate the crime, we pick up the suspect, we build a case, we prosecute that individual, jury hears it, judge makes a decision, some action is taken. And that action has never been adequate. If it were, we would be slowly getting ourselves out of this; instead, the problem is getting worse.

[Q] Playboy: What else is wrong with the system?

[A] Gates: The whole parole system.

[Q] Playboy: Are convicts breaking parole or are they just not being rehabilitated?

[A] Gates: Nobody gets rehabilitated. Well, I shouldn't say no one; some of them die. [Lauglis]

[Q] Playboy: Ouch.

[A] Gates: Look, very little gets done in the way of rehabilitation. When I came on the department, there was a study on probation and parole. It said it wasn't working; all we were doing was recycling them. The study showed, I think, that in twenty-four months, sixty-six percent, two thirds, of the people violated their parole, committed crimes. All these intervening years, we didn't learn from that. Not long ago, there was another study. What did they find out? Precisely the same thing.

[Q] Playboy: So what's the answer?

[A] Gates: I would do away with probation and parole. When you're convicted of a crime, you would be a prisoner. You would be an in-prisoner or an out-prisoner. Until they complete their sentence, they ought to be a prisoner. They would have conditions placed on that status.

[Q] Playboy: What would be an example?

[A] Gates: OK, you are now convicted and we're gonna let you go home.

[Q] Playboy: Is this after serving time in jail?

[A] Gates: I think, yeah. I think you have to give almost anybody--even a first offender--you've got to whack 'em. That means some time in prison. And then you say, "OK, now, part of the sentence is going to be, you're gonna get a chance to be an out-prisoner."

[Q] Playboy: You like the term out-prisoner.

[A] Gates: Like an outpatient. You're an out-prisoner. And these are the conditions: You will be in your home from nine o'clock in the evening till seven in the morning. You will be out of your home only to go to work, to school, to the market and to do just what is essential to your survival. And if you do anything other than that, you will go back to prison and you will serve the entire term. There will be no second chance.

[Q] Playboy: Then what happens?

[A] Gates: I'd eliminate all the probation officers. Totally out. Through my out-prisoner status, the conditions aren't tailored to the individual. That means any police officer who finds you in violation of the conditions of out-prisoner status can take you right back to court--any court--and you will go back to prison. You're back to an in-prison status. So what you have, in effect, is that every police officer is a prison guard.

[Q] Playboy: Have you discussed these ideas with other law-enforcement people?

[A] Gates: All the time.

[Q] Playboy: How do they respond to them?

[A] Gates: Kind of like you. Glassy-eyed. [Laughs] But they've done that before on things I've recommended. I can remember one--we were putting SWAT together. I got the same glassy-eyed look from a lot of people who said, "What's he talking about? I mean, that's crazy."

[Q] Playboy: Much of your time and money have been spent on gang violence. Are you making any progress?

[A] Gates: We did this cul-de-sac thing and we got two hundred kids to go back to school.

[Q] Playboy: They were afraid they would be hurt going to school?

[A] Gates: They were scared to death. It was a dangerous, dangerous thing to traverse from the homes to the school. So the principal said, "Funny thing is happening. We've got two hundred more people in school today than we had before you started this project." That's been rather consistent. And we're finding, as we've gone to other schools and tried to establish some safe zones--a very intensive policing in those zones--that in every case, the truancy has dropped off. It really wasn't truancy; it was kids staying out of school because they were afraid.

[Q] Playboy: How does the cul-de-sac work?

[A] Gates: This area happened to be very flat and had a lot of drive-by shootings. We made a cul-de-sac by putting up some barricades, so that they couldn't drive through. They would have to turn around and go back.

[Q] Playboy: So you're not concerned only with punishment?

[A] Gates: No, no, no. Though everyone thinks I am. And that's all right. I'm paid to produce peace on the streets. I'm very aggressive at that. Then people often are upset with my aggressiveness. We're aggressive because the rest of the system is not. It does not do what it ought to do. Because the rest of the system is so inadequate, we have turned to what in our free society? The police. And what do people want? They want more police. I mean, everyone wants a police officer on his block.

[Q] Playboy: Maybe two.

[A] Gates: Isn't that an anathema to a free society? To have a police officer looking over your shoulder at everything you do? I mean, we send troops to the Middle East to keep Kuwait free from aggression and oppression. And sometimes, I think we in this country are probably the most oppressed people in the world.

[Q] Playboy: Why did you become a cop?

[A] Gates: I really didn't want to be a police officer. I didn't have a real high opinion of them. I had a friend who said, "Why don't you become a police officer? They are encouraging new officers to go to school." And they paid the lofty sum of two hundred ninety dollars a month--which was an incredible amount of money in those days, I looked at it and I said, "Hey, that looks like easy work."

[Q] Playboy: Did you have any run-ins with the police as a kid?

[A] Gates: Sure. The usual kid things. Fighting, things of that nature. And lots of tickets; lots of citations. So I didn't have a real high regard for police officers. And I had no real interest in being one.

[Q] Playboy: Your father had a drinking problem, which he did overcome at some point.

[A] Gates: He did it cold turkey. Lots of will power. And candy bars.

[Q] Playboy: Did life change after that in your home?

[A] Gates: To some degree, it did. There were deep scars on all sides.

[Q] Playboy: Was he abusive?

[A] Gates: No. Never. Not in the least bit. A very friendly guy, a very funny guy. Not the least bit abusive to any of us, including my mother. I mean, he was tough. When he was sober, he was tough.

[Q] Playboy: Did your father's problem influence your own attitudes? You don't drink, do you?

[A] Gates: I have a drink.I can't remember getting drunk in my life, but I suppose I have. I don't drink during the week at all. On Friday night, usually, I'll go home and have a drink before dinner, and there'll be one with dinner. And I might do that on Saturday night, and then that's it. That's my total consumption. I enjoy it. I even enjoy a martini.

[Q] Playboy: How do you normally spend your evenings?

[A] Gates: There are so many dinners that I have to go to as part of the job. So what I enjoy most is going home and cooking. I'm a good cook. It's a tremendous diversion for me. Cooking is a way of getting rid of stress. I do a barbecued salmon that is--I mean, it is the best I've ever tasted. Anyone who's ever tasted my barbecued salmon says it's the best.

[Q] Playboy: How long is your workday?

[A] Gates: Depends on what's in store for me. I've cut back considerably. For several years, if I didn't have anything else to do, I'd spend twelve hours in the office, at least. And then, if I had a dinner to go to, I'd do that. I've cut back on the dinners and the speeches. I like to speak, but I've gotten a little tired of hearing my own voice.

[Q] Playboy: Your first marriage ended in divorce. Could you say you had the police-marriage syndrome?

[A] Gates: Oh, I don't think so. There were just some basic underlying differences between us. I think I worked my fanny off for most of the time we were married, and she had to put up with, as did my children, an awful lot of effort on my part in my job, time taken away from them.

[Q] Playboy: Isn't that the usual cause of problems in police marriages?

[A] Gates: If I had been in any other field, I would've approached it with the same vigor.

[Q] Playboy: What was your relationship with your three children?

[A] Gates: When we split up, my oldest daughter came to live with me. And I think my youngest daughter wanted to live with me, too, but she--she's so nice, she didn't want to let her mother down.

[Q] Playboy: So you were Mr. Mom.

[A] Gates: I'm always Dad.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think about whether you were a good dad?

[A] Gates: I was a very good dad. I don't think there's any question about that; I was a good dad. You always think back, you could have done a lot better. You think of all the things you should've said, the things I should've done, and all the times I should've been more patient. And that's all true. I could have been more patient, I could've said different things, I could've, perhaps, influenced them in different ways. But that's all hindsight. I was always there when they needed me and I never shunned the responsibility of my children, at any time, ever. I loved them dearly. And I think they love me.

[Q] Playboy: The word is that after your marriage broke up, you were quite the ladies' man in town.

[A] Gates: People thought that. But for a long time, I didn't go out. I wanted to maintain my image within the department. I ended up spending a lot of time by myself. So I don't think I was a ladies' man at all. It's kind of a myth. You're single, and you're fairly successful in the department. I had more hair. I was, I think, reasonably decent-looking. So people just made that assumption. I didn't have a place to live when I first split up, so I went back to Mom, lived with her. I think she began to worry about me. [Laughs] She got me a subscription to Playboy. I guess she figured I could at least look at the pictures.

[Q] Playboy: Speaking of women--

[A] Gates: Women? Ohhh, I love women.

[Q] Playboy: A long time ago--

[A] Gates: Oh, God.

[Q] Playboy: You were bitter about the court's order to increase the number of women on the force. You said that no cop should be under five foot eight, and there would never be enough qualified women to fill the slots.

[A] Gates: Yes. It was my very strong belief that height was an important asset to being a police officer. We did many, many studies on height being a factor whenever you use physical force to try to take somebody into custody. There's no question that it is a valuable asset. And I used to tell women's groups, "It's not that I don't want women. I don't want little men." [Laughs]

[Q] Playboy: The height requirement was lowered?

[A] Gates: I lowered it myself. I lowered it to five feet. Which leads me to a funny story. There's a film of me at a graduation, doing an inspection. It showed me going down the front line, checking a gun here and moving along. I got down to the end of the line and, for some reason, when I made the turn to go back up the other row, I totally excluded one poor little female. Who I didn't see! She was short and she just didn't come into my line of vision. So everybody kidded me that little people were getting into the department, and they were so small you couldn't even see them. [Laughs]

[Q] Playboy: Did the department have to adjust? You now have more than eleven hundred female officers.

[A] Gates: We did modify some of the physical-agility aspects of the entrance examination. I don't think changing those was any more harmful, if it was harmful at all, than lowering the height limit. You have to be able to handle yourself, whether you're a woman or a man.

[Q] Playboy: How hard was it for you, personally, to adjust?

[A] Gates: I was probably one of the original "Down with women in police work." Not that I didn't think they had a place; in the right place, they were fine. I don't feel that way any longer. I've seen too many women come into this department and do an outstanding job.

[Q] Playboy: In your first years as chief, you also had some words about gays. You said, supposedly, "Who'd want to work with one?"

[A] Gates: I know I've been quoted as saying that. But for the life of me, I don't remember having said that. And if I did, I think it's been taken out of context.

[Q] Playboy: Do you believe it?

[A] Gates: As long as I can remember, we have never inquired into anyone's sexual habits or orientation. There may have been something in the psychiatric exams, there may have been something in the processing for the job--but I'm not aware of that. We have said that, as a police officer, you must act with a certain degree of propriety, on and off the job. We still require that. And as a police officer, whether you're heterosexual or homosexual, you can't display that sexuality without getting yourself in trouble. If a heterosexual is so overheterosexual that every time he writes a citation to a woman, he hits on her, we've got a problem, and we're gonna discipline him for it. But our position on your sexual orientation is one of strict neutrality. We don't care as long as you can do the job.

[Q] Playboy: You've made at least one run for public office. Are you still interested in politics?

[A] Gates: [Laughs] You mean, "God, is he gonna do something?"

[Q] Playboy: Is that still on your mind?

[A] Gates: I don't know how much it's ever been on my mind. The first time I even thought about it was a pure, unadulterated lark. I was angry with the mayor and I wanted to give him a bad time. So I said I'm gonna run for mayor.

[Q] Playboy: Was it more of a trial balloon?

[A] Gates: Not even that. Another time, I thought about it and did some polling. I was much more serious about it. I decided I could beat everybody else, but I couldn't beat Tom Bradley. He had that pure image. He no longer has that pure image; he is beatable, in my judgment.

[Q] Playboy: Needless to say, you would have run as a Republican.

[A] Gates: I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool Republican. I'm a maverick. I thought I had a lot to say. Then, of course, I got into the great dispute with the arch-conservatives who were probably my best supporters--the Right-to-Lifers--because I arrested them, and the N.R.A. people didn't like my interference with their right to have assault weapons. So it was obvious that I'd lost a big part of my constituency. I haven't given any thought to politics since.

[Q] Playboy: What is the funniest request anybody has ever made of you?

[A] Gates: Well, Tommy Lasorda called me one time. And you know Tommy. We go through our pleasantries. He knows my son-in-law, and my son-in-law's Italian, so you go through all that. And then he tells me about a game that he lost someplace. And how horrible the pitching was, and the officiating, and the whole inning-by-inning account. Then he told me about a terrible airplane ride back. Delayed by the weather, and when they got to LAX, they were late, and his wife was going to pick him up. And because they were delayed, she had to drive around LAX two or three times. She parked and they went to get the baggage, and when they came out, they'd gotten a parking citation. So he finally got to it.

[Q] Playboy: Aha.

[A] Gates: And Tommy said, "You know, Daryl, I've been so supportive of you guys over the years." He says, "Every time you've ever needed me for anything, I've been there. Golly--to have one of your guys give me a parking citation. And I didn't deserve it. I tried to talk to him, but he wouldn't even talk to me." And I said, "Tommy, that's not our people. That's airport police."

[Q] Playboy: He wasted this all on you?

[A] Gates: Wasted this whole thing. He said, "It's not?" And I said, "No, Tommy, it's not us. That's airport police. And they give me a ticket out there. It's terrible."

[Q] Playboy: Do they really?

[A] Gates: No. But they write those parking citations by the carload. I said, "Tommy, send it to me. I'll see what I can do." So he said, "Well, only one thing. Y' know, my wife--she's Italian, too. And she's very excitable. So the ticket's not in great shape." And I said, "Tommy, just send it to me." So, a couple of days later, I get this envelope and the ticket is in a thousand pieces. [Laughs] We had people sitting there, putting this jigsaw puzzle together. We finally got the number. I sent a check and paid Tommy's ticket.

[Q] Playboy: What is your proudest accomplishment?

[A] Gates: My proudest accomplishment is that I've gotten through thirteen years [as chief] in the Los Angeles Police Department. That in itself is a real achievement. Through some of the most tumultuous times in our history. I think, also, having been a person who's been out front, said a lot of controversial things and run a very aggressive police department, to still have a very high popularity rating among people within this community.

[Q] Playboy: That's interesting, because you're putting acceptance as one of your top accomplishments. There are other things that one might think of--SWAT, for instance, which you invented, or the DARE program.

[A] Gates: My whole life has been serving the people. So when I say acceptance, I'm saying that they give me high marks for doing what my whole life has been about. Also, to have the vast majority of my police officers totally behind me--that probably means more to me than almost anything else. And maintaining a department free of corruption, with, perhaps, an errant officer here and there. But thirteen years of no corruption.

[Q] Playboy: Some days, it must be tough to go to work, particularly lately.

[A] Gates: Ah, I love the job. [Laughs] And I love combat. I have to admit.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel about becoming the most famous police chief in America for all the wrong reasons?

[A] Gates: The frustrating part of it is to read so many things that I think are so unfair. The easiest thing in the world would be to just duck it, and I could duck it easily. You can't believe how easy it would be for me to just say, "Hey, take this badge and shove it."

[Q] Playboy: You've thought about it?

[A] Gates: The picture High Noon comes into focus all the time. I remember Gary Cooper, after the big gunfight where he got no help whatsoever, and he took his badge and threw it down in the dirt. I've gone to sleep at night saying to myself, "I'm going to take that badge and just shove it." Thirteen years of working my fanny off in this department. A super department. After all these investigations, that's exactly what they're going to find out: This is a great department, working harder than any other department in the country, doing more with less, better morale, more enthusiasm. A department I built with racial equality throughout.

[Q] Playboy: How has the recent controversy been affecting you personally?

[A] Gates: I don't even know how to answer that. [Pauses] I really don't. It's certainly no fun. I would much rather be back where I was just prior to this thing happening, and that was being in a position where the majority of people said I was more believable than any other public official in this city. The police department was held in high esteem throughout the world. The President was saying nice things about me. That's a pretty long way to fall in a couple of days, it really is. All of the hysteria that's connected with this, particularly connected with the hope that somehow I will end it all, has to have some significant impact on me.

[Q] Playboy: Can you envision something that would make you voluntarily resign or retire?

[A] Gates: Yeah, I can. If the majority of the officers in the department came to me and said, "Chief, we think it would be to our benefit for you to leave." I'd say, "Fine, I'm gone."

[Q] Playboy: Throw down your badge, like Gary Cooper?

[A] Gates: I would even be gracious. Hurt, but gracious. I would do it, for them.

"He certainly didn't deserve what occurred. On the other hand, I don't think he deserves this picture of a model citizen."

"I'm paid to produce peace on the streets. I'm very aggressive at that. Then people often are upset with my aggressiveness."

"I didn't have a place to live, so I went back to Mom. I think she began to worry about me. She got me a subscription to 'Playboy."

"After all these investigations, that's exactly what they're going to find out: This is a great department."