Playboy Interview: Robert Maxwell

Last spring, a sleek 190-foot white yacht made its way up the East River to Manhattan, tying up at the ritzy Water Club. The Lady Ghislaine was loaded with an abundance of mahogany and marble, a well-stocked bar, a recording studio's worth of electronic equipment, perky maids in navy-blue uniforms, a butler dressed in white and a changing guard of secretaries--including one who could be a stand-in for Sherilyn Fenn on "Twin Peaks." There was one passenger on board. As cocky as Columbus, he set foot on the continent, calling out in his booming voice, "I love New York!"

The corpulent figure belonged to Captain Bob, otherwise known as Robert Maxwell, the powerful British media baron. Although few Americans had heard of him when he landed, within days most New Yorkers not only knew who he was but had an opinion of him--invariably extreme. He was either a saint come to save the city or a demon on a mission to pillage and plunder.

Maxwell had been invited by the owner of the beleaguered New York Daily News, the Tribune Company of Chicago. Once the largest newspaper in the country with a circulation of more than 1,000,000, the 71-year-old Daily News had been crippled by a violent five-month strike. The paper's circulation had dropped below 500,000. Most advertisers had jumped ship. The News--as New York as the Empire State Building--seemed to be dying a slow and painful death.

Few held out any hope that Maxwell could save the paper. Of course, few Americans knew him as the rest of the world did. Over the past four decades, Maxwell had been gobbling up (and founding) media and communications-related companies, a list that includes The European, an international weekly, and papers in Israel, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Canada, Brazil, Spain, Hungary, Mongolia, Kenya, Argentina and the U.S.S.R. In Britain, he owns the country's second largest newspaper, the Daily Mirror, and other papers with a total circulation of 10,000,000.

According to media critic Ben Bagdikian, Maxwell had become one of the biggest "Lords of the Global Village"--that elite handful of individuals who control almost all of the world's media. As Bagdikian put it, "Neither Caesar nor Hitler, Franklin Roosevelt or any Pope has commanded as much power to shape the information on which so many people depend."

Until recently, though, Maxwell had been thwarted Stateside. He was stopped when he tried to take over Scientific American magazine, Bell & Howell and Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. Finally, in 1988, after a bitter feud with the company's board, he paid 2.5 billion dollars and acquired Macmillan, the country's second largest publishing house. It was the beginning of his invasion of America.

Just, three days before the Daily News would have folded forever, Maxwell's yacht arrived in town, and one day before the March 14th deadline, he announced a deal. The Tribune Company was paying him $60,000,000 to take the paper. He first had to work things out with the unions, but as The New York Times reported, "Maxwell treated them [union leaders] like business peers. He charmed and flattered and made quick decisions." To oblige, the union agreed to concessions equaling more than $80,000,000--including forfeiting 800 jobs.

It didn't take long, however, for the media to discover that Maxwell might not be a knight on a white horse. He'd taken over newspapers in Britain by winning concessions from unions, but he was also notorious for squeezing papers dry. Indeed, in New York, the new owner wasted no time in announcing cuts and belt tightening throughout the company. "We will make a profit," he pledged, "barring unforeseen circumstances, in the first year of operation." Elsewhere, he was still being picketed by unions that thought he had betrayed them, and he had folded newspapers that took too long to show a profit. Maxwell seemed, to care about one thing only: building his empire.

That empire began humbly enough. Both Maxwell's parents, orthodox Jews from Czechoslovakia, and three of his siblings were killed by the Nazis. He fled to Hungary in 1939 but was captured and sentenced to death. He escaped and, in France, joined the Resistance and then the British forces. In 1945, Captain Maxwell had become a British citizen, with a Military Cross awarded to him for having taken part in liberating a Dutch village from the Nazis.

He ended his military stint in Berlin and then went to London to found Pergamon Press, which published scientific textbooks and journals. At the time, when he proposed to his wife-to-be Elisabeth (they've been married 46 years and have seven children), he told her he would one day be prime minister. Indeed, in 1964, he entered politics, winning a seat in the House of Commons, where he spent six years as a socialist member of the Labour Party.

Pergamon's business boomed, though in 1969, Maxwell was accused of inflating the company's profit projections. He was forced to leave the board and a government commission's investigation declared him "unfit to run a public company." The commission's report was later found to be invalid (and in a court case, a judge called the investigation "character assassination"), but the episode remains a thorn in Maxwell's side; journalists constantly remind him of it.

There has been controversy on other fronts. Maxwell published a series of books based on his interviews with world leaders, and critics attacked him for his uncritical treatment of Romania's murderous ruler Nicolae Ceausescu and East Germany's Erich Honecker. Maxwell's justification was that the books gave him access to politicians, which in turn allowed him to have remarkable influence on world politics. He uses that clout for his favorite causes, to aid Soviet Jews and Israel. He has become a trusted advisor to Mikhail Gorbachev and Yitzhak Shamir and a powerful force in opposition to Great Britain's Conservative government.

As Maxwell continued to buy and build--He also owns the Official Airlines Guide, Thomas Cook Travel, Berlitz language schools, MTV Europe and Marquis, the publisher of "Who's Who"--there were stumbling blocks. Most prominently, there was Rupert Murdoch, who was scooping up all the London newspapers Maxwell was trying to buy. When Maxwell finally succeeded in acquiring the Daily Mirror, he became Murdoch's biggest competitor in Britain. The rivalry between the two media lords continues to be intense; Maxwell launched his Racing Times in the U.S. with a headline aimed at his only competitor, Murdoch's Racing Form: "The Monopoly is over."

When Maxwell began to make his presence felt on this continent with his acquisition of the Daily News, we decided it was time for an interview. It was easier said than done. As Contributing Editor David Sheff found out, Maxwell is a moving target.

"I arrived at the Lady Ghislaine and was asked to remove my shoes before I was escorted on board. Soon Maxwell boomed into the salon. He looked like a heavier Robert Mitchum with combed-back jet-black hair and wondrously thick eyebrows. He asked the butler for tea and asked Carolyn Barwell--the Sherilyn look-alike--for the morning schedule.

"Throughout our time together, calls from a number of world leaders came in. (He spoke to them and other callers in half a dozen languages; we've translated excerpts from some of those conversations in the interview.)

"Our next stop was Washington, D.C., for the Gridiron Dinner he attended along with President George Bush, Vice-President Dan Quayle and most of both Houses of Congress. Maxwell also had a number of meetings (with Turkey's president Turgut Ozal and Senator Patrick Moynihan, to name two) and the next day, he jetted, off to London, where I met up with him. A day later, Maxwell called. 'I'm going to Israel,' he said. 'If you're coming, meet me at the jet.'

"We arrived in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem at 3:30 A.M., and I imagined it might be time to get some rest; but Maxwell, had converted his penthouse suite into a bustling office: faxes spitting out news clips, phone lines lighting up, another secretary and butler running about.

"The following day, between our interview sessions, Maxwell met with Prime Minister Shamir; Ariel Sharon, Moshe Arens and other Israeli government members. In the evening, there was a reception for them and some Russian friends. The occasion was the launch of another Maxwell newspaper, Vremia, a Russian-language newspaper for Israeli Jews. The event was flooded by local media and Israeli businessmen and politicians, but Maxwell soon headed back to his jet. There was no time to dawdle--there was business to be done in Paris, London, Quebec and Bonn and the Daily News needed him in New York. Between the business and all the cities, we continued Playboy's most interrupted interview ever, which began on Maxwell's yacht."

[Q] Playboy: The local press is asking why you are taking over the Daily News, but perhaps a more significant question is, Why are you buying a New York newspaper when the state of the city is so bleak?

[A] Maxwell: New York will get its revival, and I will be here.

[Q] Playboy: Yet you've predicted that the balance of power in the world is moving back to Europe.

[A] Maxwell: It is, notwithstanding Desert Storm, which is as it should be. However, Europe's re-emergence will be in partnership with the United States, and as that occurs, this city will be back. The city has lost confidence in itself. People are departing. I say enough! New York still has something to say. That I have chosen New York is a vote of tremendous confidence in this city. It's the first good thing that New Yorkers have seen happen in a long time. But the fact is, New York is a giant, the biggest, loveliest, maddest town in the world. [The phone rings and Maxwell grabs it. He speaks in Russian.] I am going to Moscow to see my old friend. We have important things to talk about. Germany will play a small role, too. I want to speak with you about this in confidence. I'll call you. [He hangs up.] So New York will be back and the Daily News. will be here, too. This is an opportunity to help save New York's hometown paper. It doesn't come to many people in their lifetime.

[Q] Playboy: What do you plan for the paper?

[A] Maxwell: The Daily News' brew is quite unique. Anybody coming along here had better forget about changing anything drastically. But now we must go. I have a newspaper to run.

[On his way into the Daily News building, Maxwell meets dozens of well-wishers. He chats with them, asks them what they want to see in the News. A representative of USA Weekend comes up to say hello.]

Maxwell: Tell your boss I want his magazine in my Sunday paper, but he wants too much money. I don't want to do business at that price.

USA Weekend Executive: The problem is, the fee is fixed.

Maxwell: Tell him that I'm an admirer of his paper and I'd like to give it to our readers, but we are now building the News back from near death and everyone must contribute. Tell him I know he's dying to get into New York. Well, here you are. But it must be worth while for me.

[Inside the building, Maxwell confronts a security guard.]

[Q] Maxwell: Wait. How many security men are there?

[A] Guard: Five managers and one hundred thirty-seven security officers.

[Q] Maxwell: You're a manager? What are you paid?

[A] Guard: Forty thousand dollars a year.

[Q] Maxwell: So five of you is two hundred thousand dollars?

[A] Guard: The ones above me make a lot more.

[Maxwell enters the security force's office and starts talking to the first person he sees.]

[Q] Maxwell: What do you do for a living?

[A] Officer: We're contract security officers.

[Q] Maxwell: Who's in charge here?

[A] Another Guard: I am.

[Q] Maxwell: The workers are going to have to understand that they are part of the Daily News and it is for them to watch it, not for me. I am paying four million bucks for security and that is entirely too much. I want a list of employees in this department on my desk immediately.

[The interview resumes in Maxwell's Daily News office.]

[Q] Playboy: You've said you're going to be a hands-on owner. What does that mean?

[A] Maxwell: It means, first of all, that I control the checkbook. You won't be able to hire a pussycat into this plant if I don't say that she can have food. I have made it very clear that there will be no overtime. All the featherbedding will go.

[Q] Playboy: What will you have to say about the paper's editorial content?

[A] Maxwell: It used to be said here, "Tell it to Sweeney. Stuyvesant can take care of himself." Sweeney was the common man, but, of course, the Sweeneys have changed since then. We now have huge Hispanic and Afro-American minorities; people from Haiti whose first language is French; people from Korea, Jamaica, India, Puerto Rico. I want to be sure that we who are the hometown newspaper for New York represent them all. I'm going to find out what interests those people. I am not going to rely on statistics and clever psychologists. I listen to the people--the people who buy the News day in and day out and have for generations.

[Q] Playboy: Will we see more of the frontpage photos the tabloids are famous for: John Lennon in the morgue or the face of an electrocution victim?

[A] Maxwell: I would never put those photographs in the paper. I think it's barbaric. I fired an editor from one paper for showing Sammy Davis' cancerous throat and a picture of lined-up bodies from Lockerbie [Scotland, where a Pan Am jet crashed]. I think morbidity is not for a family newspaper.

[Q] Playboy: But in Britain, you've warred with Rupert Murdoch's papers with the tack that anything that sells is acceptable.

[A] Maxwell: Not sleaze. Look what I did for the Mirror. Before I arrived, Rupert Murdoch had driven it down into the gutter. I drove the tits and bums out of the paper. Murdoch is the one with the [nude] Page Three girls. I have none of that.

[Q] Playboy: But your tabloids thrive on National Enquirer--style pseudo journalism.

[A] Maxwell: They do not. I wouldn't own a paper like the National Enquirer.

[Q] Playboy: Come on. You once tried to buy the Globe and several other Enquirerlike papers, didn't you?

[A] Maxwell: Yes, I did try to get them, but fortunately, they escaped me. That was going to be a business decision, but, in balance, it just wouldn't fit with my way of doing business.

[Q] Playboy: Yet you can't deny that the Mirror is knee deep in some tacky celebrity journalism.

[A] Maxwell: I'm afraid that if you look at my papers, if the editors feel that there's a juicy scandal or anything to do with a major TV personality, they feel obliged to report it. We just have to compete. Where I stop the competition is that I won't go into the gutter with Rupert. We are not in the league of bad taste with The Sun and News of the World. [Again, a ringing phone interrupts his answer.] Yes? I am the owner of the News. I'm now a customer of yours and you must be nice to us. You will be our number-two supplier of paper. The fact that you volunteered that rate will stand you in good stead, because it indicates that you don't think we're a soft touch or here today and gone tomorrow. That saves your bacon. Thank you. [He hangs up and suddenly rises from his desk.] I have a meeting to go to.

[Maxwell enters a huge board room at the News, where his advertising staff has been gathered. He thanks them for coming in on a Saturday. After he speaks, he fields many questions, interrupting one to make his own observation.]

Maxwell: Why do we have only one colored person in the department? [In response, a dozen black men and women stand up. There is enthusiastic, prolonged applause.] I am apparently color blind. What is the total, if I'm not being offensive making such a remark? Are minorities well represented here? I will be looking at that.

[Maxwell answers more questions. A salesman tells Maxwell that he was attacked and beaten up during the strike.]

Maxwell: Do you know who did it?

Salesman: I wasn't able to recognize anyone. Fortunately, it wasn't life-threatening and I healed quickly. But it bothers me that the past few days, there's still violence, people are still being assaulted at the Brooklyn plant. I hope and trust that you won't be soft on these people.

Maxwell: You are right to remind me of this appalling period. It is right that you are concerned and I am, too. The agreement that I have signed with the unions says that there will be no victimization, either of the strikers coming back or anyone who worked during the strike. I have agreed to an amnesty for any wrongdoing other than that leading to criminal offenses. I have appealed to everybody to let bygones be bygones. If we keep at the animosity, we will never be able to right things. On the other hand, if you recognize the attacker, I will deal with him or her most severely, even at the cost of closing down the paper. He slams his hand on the lecturn. I will protect your rights. I will protect you at the cost of closing the paper. I won't budge and I won't compromise. I'm known for that. And as a consequence, many people won't challenge me. They say you get about as much pleasure out of chewing frozen gum as you do fighting Captain Bob.

[On his way out, Maxwell stops and takes a delighted black woman by the hand, bows and gives her a kiss on the cheek. "I just want to give a kiss to one of my favorite white people on this staff to show I'm not color blind."

On the way to the elevator, a News executive cautiously tells him, "That was great, though I thought you should know: We call them black here. We don't really call them colored. Just F.Y.I."

"Thank you for putting me right," Maxwell says, as he heads off to his office, where the interview resumes.]

[Q] Playboy: People were shocked that the Tribune Company paid you to take over the paper. How much would it have cost them if the paper had gone under?

[A] Maxwell: It would have cost them twice as much. The sixty million dollars they're to give me is to help pay off people who are leaving and cover many other costs. The Tribune and the trade unions of New York got themselves into such a mess that there was no way out.

[Q] Playboy: Why was there one with you?

[A] Maxwell: Their fight became ideological. Management wanted to bust the unions and the unions wanted to bust the management.

[Q] Playboy: But how can you make money where the Tribune couldn't?

[A] Maxwell: The economies that I have achieved in consultation and by agreement with the unions equal a million and a half dollars a week. Nonunion and management reductions and other savings that I expect to make--some of it out of the hide of suppliers--will be half a million dollars. That's close to a total saving of one hundred million dollars a year. If we save one hundred million dollars of unnecessary costs, then don't be surprised that we will be making a profit in the first year.

[Q] Playboy: Why couldn't the Tribune get the same economies from the unions?

[A] Maxwell: These two were driven to the point of killing each other, almost literally. I started off by treating the trade unions with dignity. They have ideas to help reduce costs that I am delighted to listen to. They are going to show us how to get the paper reintroduced to New Yorkers in the kind of numbers we need in order to make the paper last. They're involved in their paper.

[Q] Playboy: And they gave up eight hundred jobs.

[A] Maxwell: The paper couldn't survive without cuts, so, in effect, the unions saved almost two thousand jobs. This is a strong statement for collective bargaining in America, which is in trouble partly because management has killed collective bargaining. Your President Reagan, as far as I'm concerned, did two things: He won the Cold War, without any question, and he destroyed collective bargaining in the United States by putting air-traffic controllers into chains. Unions needed correction, but they need collective bargaining, and it is healthier for the country. The trade unions in America are viewed as anticapitalists; they are not. But if management treats them like dogs, they react irrationally. Strong trade unions are the one check on management.

[Q] Playboy: But one trade-union leader in Britain warned that you "charm the birds out of the trees--then you shoot them."

[A] Maxwell: This was said by a trade-union leader with whom I fought many a battle. Well, if I have to shoot the birds, I shoot them. But I get no fun out of it. If the implication is that I charm you into making concessions and then shoot you just for the fun of it, that's not true.

[Q] Playboy: The eight hundred employees who are losing their jobs may not agree.

[A] Maxwell: It is very unfortunate. But the revival and prosperity of the newspaper and the city depends on a real tough look at what we really need to do with our resources. This is a reflection of bad management of the past.

[Q] Playboy: Why don't you learn from Japan: Build a group work ethic, stick by your employees?

[A] Maxwell: I am in this business to make money, don't get me wrong.

[Q] Playboy: Yet you claim to be a socialist.

[A] Maxwell: Socialism is capitalism with a human face. Socialism stands for maximizing the freedom of the individual, protection from monopoly, protection from employers, encouraging freedom of the press and providing basic services for all people.

I do not discharge workers lightly. Before I let them go, I will try every method of keeping them. In the case of the News, past management and unions conspired to create an entity that was sinking itself. Before we can go forward, we have to reach a reasonable level. But I certainly remember what it felt like when my father was out of work. To me, human beings are worth more than things; I'm not attached to property.

[Q] Playboy: With the News as your latest acquisition, how big will your media empire be? How big is big enough?

[A] Maxwell: I don't want to go too far. I may be ninth or tenth in the world at the moment. I want to stop at about five or six.

[Q] Playboy: Do you have a grand design?

[A] Maxwell: Absolutely. Many years ago, I saw that information, like energy, is a scarce commodity. As the world becomes interrelated by television, telecommunications and other media, it needs global communication companies just as it once needed global energy, banking, insurance and mass-transportation companies. Once you know how the river is going, you just put a pipe into it and participate in the flow. Print was my background, so, of course, I started there. I got newspapers in Britain and then throughout Europe and the world. Printing, of course, is key. I bought printers. Eventually, you need a major publishing company in the world--that was central--so I decided to buy one.

[Q] Playboy: So you went after Harcourt Brace Jovanovich.

[A] Maxwell: Yes, and if they had accepted my friendly overture, Harcourt wouldn't be near death today. Its chairman, William Jovanovich, offensively said, "Mr. Maxwell has money but not enough" when I tried to acquire them. So he swallowed a poison pill of a three-billion-dollar debt, which killed his company, and they are teetering on the verge of bankruptcy. But Macmillan is mine now and it is a great success.

[Q] Playboy: After a bitter battle, it is yours. Why was there such resistance to you?

[A] Maxwell: The management wanted to protect its golden parachutes. They were far worse than the Damon Runyon characters of old. They were in cooperation with their banks and advisors. It could happen only in America.

[Q] Playboy: You said at one point that you would vertically integrate your global network so that you would own everything from the pulp your newspapers were printed on to satellites. Are you heading there?

[A] Maxwell: That goal had to be abandoned. Too much capital was required to maintain it. I decided to sell most of my television interests and most of my printing interests except those that we retain for the printing of our own newspapers. You have to make choices. The businesses I've concentrated on are newspapers and communication information. The big change came last year, when I announced the abandonment of the goal of trying to reach five to ten billion dollars in sales. I decided to scale down, to be happy with the fifth or sixth place in the rank. [He answers the phone and speaks in German.] Yes? I still need to know who else is in the loop. I cannot make a decision until I get that information. Otherwise, heads will roll. [He hangs up.]

[Q] Playboy: Where does Rupert Murdoch fall in the top ten?

[A] Maxwell: My guess would be about fifth at the present time.

[Q] Playboy: With his debt problems, is he in danger of getting knocked out of that position?

[A] Maxwell: He will certainly get knocked out of his current position, because he has to dispose of properties and assets in order to pay off his debt. He's sold some assets already, but it is just the beginning.

[Q] Playboy: There have been reports that you are leveraged dangerously high.

[A] Maxwell: For forty years in business, I never borrowed. But when I decided to buy a publishing house, a great deal of cash was required. I fought and won the battle for Macmillan and was offered Official Airline Guides at the same time. I spent more than three billion dollars. I borrowed a great deal of the money, though not junk bonds like Mr. Murdoch's; the finest banking rates.

[Q] Playboy: But your companies are rated at junk-bond levels.

[A] Maxwell: The rating has been lowered at present, but when I borrowed the three billion, I borrowed it at fine rates, not junk. I'll explain it once and for all: Of the loan, one billion was short-term, seven hundred fifty million dollars medium-term and the rest long-term. The one-billion-dollar short-term has been repaid ahead of time. My next due payment to the banks is seven hundred fifty million dollars in October 1992 and 1993. I have two years before my next meeting with the banks and I will have repaid what I need to long before your magazine publishes [this interview]. The rest will be easy. Mr. Murdoch had six to seven billion of short-term debt from one hundred fifty banks.

[Q] Playboy: Are you enjoying watching his empire falter?

[A] Maxwell: No. I'm sorry about it and I'm glad that his bankers have extended him their facilities, because it wouldn't be good for our industry for him to fail.

[Q] Playboy: How did your rivalry begin?

[A] Maxwell: When he got News of the World, he didn't outbid me. He got it for nothing. Same with The Times. For the News of the World, I put up forty-seven million pounds and he put up nothing and got it.

[Q] Playboy: Why?

[A] Maxwell: Because the Conservatives in Britain didn't want a socialist like Maxwell to own the News of the World.

[Q] Playboy: How were you stopped?

[A] Maxwell: Simply, Margaret Thatcher gave Murdoch everything he ever wanted and deprived me of what I wanted as long as she could. Rupert Murdoch would be nothing if he weren't allowed to break rules in Britain. Mrs. Thatcher and her government supported Murdoch and did whatever was required for him to acquire the paper. Similar things happened with The Times, the Sun and then the Sunday Times.

[Q] Playboy: Did Murdoch use his papers to benefit Thatcher and her party?

[A] Maxwell: He did.

[Q] Playboy: Do your newspapers support political issues that affect your business?

[A] Maxwell: I have many detractors, but none of them says that I use my papers the way Murdoch has used his, for his business interests.

[Q] Playboy: Has the rivalry anything to do with the fact that you're British and he's Australian?

[A] Maxwell: That's right. And the other difference is that I am a socialist and royalist, dyed in the wool, and he's a republican, dyed in the wool, and anti-royalist.

[Q] Playboy: You're a supporter of royalty?

[A] Maxwell: A strong supporter.

[Q] Playboy: Does that affect your newspapers' editorials?

[A] Maxwell: Yes. My instructions to the editors in England are that we will stand for the royal family, support them, and the defense of the realm.

[Q] Playboy: If you discover a scandal about them, will you quash it?

[A] Maxwell: Absolutely not. I broke the story of Princess whatever-her-name-is having Nazi relationships. But I won't print gossip. I would hope it is recognized that we are responsible and don't go in for harassing the royal family.

[Q] Playboy: Years ago, you noted that Europe would require more than one hundred thousand hours of television programing. "At present," you said, "we're providing only five thousand." Why did you get out of television in lieu of newspapers?

[A] Maxwell: I've not got out of all of television. I've got out of that part of my investments where I had responsibility without power. I retained other interests such as MTV Europe, of which I have fifty-point-one percent, though if somebody offers me a good price, I'll sell it.

[A Daily News PR man and secretary Barwell enter the office.]

PR Man: The crew is assembled.

Barwell: [German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich] Mr. Genscher has called back.

PR Man: Shall we head downstairs?

[Maxwell ignores their entreaties and continues with the interview.]

[Q] Playboy: Is there a gamble in being more committed now to print than to television?

[A] Maxwell: Less of a gamble. Television has failed to control its costs. The people are bored with the networks. They're going in for their video cassettes. For instance, amateur home videos are sweeping the land here. People will be providing much of the programing of their television sets by themselves.

[Barwell tries again.]

Barwell: Genscher's calling.

Maxwell: You'll need to excuse me.

[He soon emerges from his office. A half-dozen marketing and public-relations men are waiting for him.]

Maxwell: [Booming] Carolyn, I must put a suit on.

[He ducks into an extra room and emerges in a white shirt, red knit bow tie, big-waisted navy-blue trousers; a blazer is slung over his arm.]

Maxwell: Where's Joseph? I have no cuff links. Someone will be circumcised. I cannot go without cuff links.

PR Man: I'll give you mine.

News Assistant: I'll give you mine.

A Man Walking by: You can wear mine.

[In an office elsewhere in the, building, a dozen men from the News and the paper's advertising agency are gathered. In the next room is a film crew ready to make a television commercial starring Maxwell.]

Maxwell: Let me see the script. [He scans it.] I have only one message. "The News is back; buy us."

First Ad Man: That's essentially what we're saying.

Maxwell: What you're saying is in too many words and places. What music will we be using?

PR Man: We want a song called New York, New York.

Maxwell: All right, that's exactly the music that we should be starting with. So let's have it.

First Ad Man: Well, sir, we can't get the song. The rights are too complicated. Just to talk, they want three hundred thousand dollars. We might be able to get Billy Joel's New York State of Mind.

Maxwell: Who owns New York, New York?

Second Ad Man: Chappel.

Maxwell: I want that music and I don't want me in the ad. I want shots of famous News front pages.

[A News editor walks in, hands Maxwell a galley of tomorrow's edition, the first under his ownership.]

Maxwell: Is this my editorial? [To his staff] Get Chappel on the phone.

[He scans his editorial. There is a flurry of activity. He is handed the phone number for Chappel, which is actually Warner/Chappel.]

Maxwell: If it's owned by Warner Communications, I should be calling [Time Warner's chairman] Steve Ross. Carolyn? No. He is on his plane now. [He dials Wamer/Chappel and asks for the person in charge.] Hello. To whom am I speaking? You're speaking to Robert Maxwell. Have you ever heard of me? No? Does the New York Daily News ring a bell? Well, I'm the new owner of the New York Daily News and I need to have license tomorrow to use New York, New York in our television commercials. What are your rules for licensing in an emergency? I don't have time to be pushed from pillar to post here. So do me a favor and push the button in the right direction. Call me back immediately. [He hangs up and turns to Barwell.] Carolyn, let's call Martin Davis at Paramount. [To the editor] What do you think of the editorial? Am I going to bore the readers?

Editor: I like it very much. I like the part where you write that if you had come to America instead of Britain, you would have run for mayor.

Maxwell: And somewhere we need to say thank you to the advertisers for coming back as quickly as they have. Could you take this down? Where is she? There's no bloody secretary around. [Several men scramble for pen and paper and he dictates the letter. He continues dealing on the phone to get the rights to "New York, New York."] Who is it I need to talk to? I want to pay a decent price; I'm not a schnorrer, but I'm not to be ripped off, either. You've made my day. Goodbye now. [As soon as he hangs up, the phone rings again.] Yes? Tell the prime minister of Canada he can reach me here. [Again, he hangs up and answers another line.] This is Robert Maxwell. I'm all right. And I don't want to pay any chazzer prices. I want the song for one year, newspaper category only. Good. Thank you. [After the call, Maxwell falls sound asleep. When Martin Davis' office calls, there is a short debate on whether or not to wake him. Before a decision can be made, Maxwell wakes himself with a start and grabs the phone.] Hello? It's owned by Capitol-EMI? Well, that's good news. I'm a shareholder, so it is as good as ours. Good, good. So how is-- [He asks everyone to leave the room. The interview resumes a few minutes later.]

[Q] Playboy: You fell asleep before.

[A] Maxwell: I can fall asleep instantly. If you want to lead a life like I do, you had better be able to do that. That's why at sixty-eight, I can lead that kind of life.

[Q] Playboy: You've said that you're going to retire at seventy. Is there really any chance of that?

[A] Maxwell: I would like to. There are many books that I'd like to read, flowers that I haven't smelled, walks that I haven't been on. [The phone rings again. He answers it.] What do you think? Of the two, I mean, I really want New York, New York. Yeah. Don't worry; I won't sing it. [To the PR man] Get the editor down here. Tell him to show me the front page.

An Associate of Maxwell: The prime minister wants to speak to you.

Maxwell: Which one?

Associate: The Honorable Brian Mulroney [of Canada].

Maxwell: Why does he want to speak to me? [He picks up the phone and speaks in French.] Of course we are. It will be very good for you and very good for me. I'm very happy about that. Yes. I'll be back at my boat this evening. Of course. Thank you. [He hangs up, takes another call. Again, he speaks in French.] The price of newsprint is so soft that all our suppliers are eliminating increases until after the summer. Tell him he must do the same. [When he hangs up, a young man brings in a Daily News sign painted in black and white.]

Maxwell: Not black; it should be yellow.

Young Man: It can't be done today. The painters are gone.

Maxwell: Not is not a word that I accept. Anyone who can't do this for me--[The phone rings. This time, Maxwell speaks in German.] What are they saying? Good heavens. What is the interest you're getting? How much do you have in cash? Invest one million in that and renew it for ninety days. Yes, you have to have cash. Thank you. [He hangs up.] Where is this chap who looks after me? Where's Joseph? [He answers the telephone again.] Speaking. All right. You're as good as your word. Right. I understand. You've got a deal and I'm grateful to you and I shall not forget where you live. No, nothing and I'm not schnorring, but fifty thousand dollars is the right price. Will you send me a fax? But I can now tell my agency to proceed? I thank you, you're a gentleman. 'Bye. [He hangs up.] All right, that's done. We have the song. If they hadn't had somebody else involved, they would have given it to me for nothing, for saving the News. We've got all rights to New York, New York for whatever purpose for one year for fifty grand. [He yells for an assistant.] Tell these guys I now want to see the commercial.

[Q] Playboy: You're heavily invested in online computer networks and other electronic media. Might the emerging technologies put your newspapers out of business?

[A] Maxwell: There will always be newspapers and magazines. You can take them to the lavatory and you still cannot do that with a television. You cannot wrap fish and chips in CNN.

[Q] Playboy: Yet CNN gave your newspapers a run for their money when it came to covering the Gulf war.

[A] Maxwell: The war convinced the world that when anything serious is happening, there is a new way to show it.

[Q] Playboy: As a newspaper man, that must raise some serious issues.

[A] Maxwell: CNN changed our mission. It did the supreme job and nobody should deny Ted Turner the great achievement. He has placed nails in the newspapers' coffin as far as getting news as it breaks. And when people were glued to their television, they were so goo-goo-eyed that they didn't rush out to get their paper.

[Q] Playboy: How will you respond?

[A] Maxwell: We're scratching our heads. Newspapers can't leave this to some upstart. The fact, however, is that newspapers can go for depth that television cannot. They can cover different angles and analyze the news in different ways. We can do more locally. Yet there is another thing Turner has shown: that the world is, indeed, one village and it is tuned to CNN. That will mean that, in future, whenever any despot has any tsooris, he'll give it all to Turner.

[Q] Playboy: Are you going to let him be the only one?

[A] Maxwell: I hope not. One way or another, we must respond. Mind you, what Turner did electronically, I did with my Leaders of the World's News series of books.

[Q] Playboy: In other words, you gave platforms to world leaders as CNN gave a platform to Saddam Hussein.

[A] Maxwell: That's right. I took the view that the leaders of those countries are there, whether we like them or not, whether we agree with them or not. I provided a platform for them to speak their thoughts and opinions, at the same time disassociating myself from them.

[Q] Playboy: Yet you've been highly criticized for some of those books.

[A] Maxwell: I don't give a fuck.

[Q] Playboy: How can you justify your purported strong feelings about human rights and, at the same time, give a forum for a tyrant like Nicolae Ceausescu?

[A] Maxwell: It is news. And I certainly questioned him on human rights. The fact is, I was able to use that relationship to get a lot of Jews out of Romania and Russia.

[Q] Playboy: But you didn't merely give Ceausescu a forum. You praised him--calling him a humanitarian.

[A] Maxwell: What can I do? I'm not proud of everything that I've said. I'm the least proud of that.

[Q] Playboy: Similarly, you praised Gustav Husak of Czechoslovakia--calling him "this impressive man." And Erich Honecker of East Germany--as recently as October 1989 you called him a reformer.

[A] Maxwell: Well, if you can make a German start stand, perhaps you are. But I didn't approve of his policies or his politics.

[Q] Playboy: Among these world leaders, whom did you find impressive?

[A] Maxwell: Reagan. I got to love that man. In the world at large, people had this view that he was just a film actor, that his strings were being pulled from somewhere else. It turned out that he was a considerable politician. Nehru was also an impressive man, a good leader. Deng Xiaoping was probably the most interesting.

[Q] Playboy: Did meeting with Deng help you begin publishing China Daily?

[A] Maxwell: Yes, though I suspended publication after Tiananmen Square.

[Q] Playboy: Have you spoken with Deng about Tiananmen Square?

[A] Maxwell: I wrote to him. I said, "Until there is a semblance of democracy in your country, I cannot be associated with you." I have since received an invitation to go to see him again. He said, "I would very much like you to again publish the China Daily. It gave us access to the world." However, it is still suspended, though I may reopen it. The other thing I did in China, though not alone--Henry Kissinger set it up--was an investment fund. As a result of Tiananmen, we suspended that, too. Let me give you a story that has never seen the light of day about one of those books. The first of those volumes was about Brezhnev. I went to deliver him a copy of the book in Moscow. Near the end of our meeting, I said, "General Secretary, now that your volume has been published, uncensored and distributed world-wide, would you not consider publishing a volume by America's President Jimmy Carter in the Soviet Union?"

He fixed me with a you-son-of-a-bitch stare. No one had prepared him for the question. Finally, he said, "I'll have to think about it." My next time in Moscow, I asked him again, and he said, "I authorize it, I agree." I ended the discussion with a minimum of delay and began to leave. Before I was outside the outer office, the whole of his staff came after me: "Mr. Maxwell, the authorization you've got is not to be communicated to the world. This is going to require a lot of preparation." I said, "Gentlemen, are you going against the general secretary? Are you withdrawing his assent? I'm accepting no such restrictions and I will go right back in there to see him." They backed down.

Would you believe what happened? Stu Eisenstadt, Carter's special advisor, turned it down on the grounds that I was a British publisher and not an American. It was like handing him the crown jewels. Carter might have been re-elected. Many years later, he came to see me in London. I asked him if he had been involved in that decision himself. He looked it up in his records and told me that he had not been involved in the decision. It was unfortunate.

[Q] Playboy: Who besides Carter said no?

[A] Maxwell: Funnily enough, Mrs. Thatcher said no. [Once again, he's interrupted by the phone.] I'm all right. Yes. Yes, I know. [His eyebrows jut upward.] Well, just walk through it. [Listens] We cannot possibly entertain a Teamsters picket line. Either you will walk through it or it will disappear, or the paper will not print. [He slams his palm on his desk.] They haven't even spoken to us. You do what you have to do, but you must inform them that they haven't negotiated, they haven't given any proper notice. You have to cross the line unless they withdraw. Too much is at stake for us. Of course I'll be willing to speak with them, but not under duress, not unless they withdraw their picket line. You may tell them they have your word and mine, but they cannot be linked. They've got to be off the line first. [He hangs up and returns to the interview.]

Listen to this: Jack Kennedy, who is head of the biggest union in our plant, says, "Bob, we have a picket line we can't cross." It is Hoffa's union, the Teamsters. They say they're entitled to some cleaning jobs. I said, "Jack, if their picket line isn't gone or if you don't tell me you're crossing it immediately, this paper will shut its doors and never open again."

[He answers the phone again.] I will see you never unless you call off the picket line. You call off the line or there is no newspaper. I will not set up a meeting or even give out my phone number while you are threatening me. When there is no line, you may certainly call me to set up a meeting. [He hangs up.] I will not negotiate under duress. No one does business with me by threats. Unless you get me down the river with cement around my shoes, I don't deal like that. They're testing me all the way, already. I haven't even been here one day.

[Q] Playboy: Welcome to New York.

[A] Maxwell: It may be New York, but they haven't found anybody like me. They're actually picketing. [He picks up the phone again.] Jack, he will take them off; otherwise, I will not speak with him. Now, Jack, please, since this is my first day, you should know, this gentleman should know, that if he does not withdraw or if he stays and you don't cross the picket line, this paper shuts. It will never open again. So, please, don't make any mistake. He shouldn't make any mistake. Right. Put him on.

Hello. It's not so nice talking to you unless you withdraw the picket line. Absolutely. If you don't threaten me, you'll find me as a friend. Threaten me and the paper shuts and it never reopens. Good. Well, if you're off the [picket] line, you come and talk to me. Call me and we'll be happy to make an appointment. But not until you're off the line. You agree to that? That's very nice of you. I won't set an appointment until there is no line. Call me any time tomorrow and we'll fix up a mutually agreeable appointment. Jack has all my numbers. God bless. [He hangs up.]

[Q] Playboy: Is this déjà vu? You threatened to close down the Mirror the day you bought it because of a union problem.

[A] Maxwell: That's right. It is no idle threat, I guarantee you. I hope these guys are finally realizing that there is something in having a British publisher. Notice I have no lawyers beside me. [He answers the phone.] Yeah? Who? Put him on. Well, fine. [He hangs up and smiles broadly.] There is no picket line. [The editor comes in with a mock-up of the next day's front page.] We saved the paper again. The Teamsters were going to close it down. Let's put this in: [The editor takes notes.] "This evening, in a dramatic blaze of glory--" No. "This evening, a dramatic call came from the president of the pressmen's union to Robert Maxwell, informing him that his men cannot go into the Brooklyn plant because there is a picket mounted by the Teamsters Union, which has a dispute with the company over cleaners...." [He retells the story.] Let everybody in the printing world know that Mr. Maxwell never bluffs. [The editor leaves.] Where were we?

[Q] Playboy: So you do intend to play editor in New York?

[A] Maxwell: When I have a good story, I will certainly pass it along to my editors. This first edition is very important.

[Q] Playboy: Will you be using the Daily News to influence American politics?

[A] Maxwell: I reserve the right to determine the editorial policy of the newspapers in Britain and I have no hesitation having articles and editorials drafted for me, but in America and the rest of the world, I leave it to the natives. The editors will determine what the News says unless they were to go mad and back a Fascist or something.

[We next met in Washington, D.C., where Maxwell had just attended the Gridiron Dinner, along with President Bush, most of Congress and numerous media heavyweights.]

[Q] Playboy: How is our President?

[A] Maxwell: He seems very well.

[Q] Playboy: What is your impression of him?

[A] Maxwell: The manner in which he built the coalition against Iraq was masterful. His running of the war was magnificent. Long before shots were fired, I predicted that it would be won by Bush and he would be impossible to deal with for the next six years. Nobody can stop him. He will be even more insufferable than Margaret Thatcher was when she won the fourth time.

[Q] Playboy: Does that mean that your role here will be similar to your role in Britain--opposing the Administration?

[A] Maxwell: As I have said, I don't intend to play politics here. I'm a foreigner. I may privately talk to people, but publicly, never. That is a prohibition that is imperative if I'm to do anything in this country. I can't play party politics. [Barwell enters.]

Barwell: The Turkish president has been trying to call you.

Maxwell: And he couldn't get through?

Barwell: Apparently, the lines were busy. Do you want me to try him?

Maxwell: Yes. You have his number?

[Q] Playboy: Why is President Turgut Ozal trying to reach you?

[A] Maxwell: We shall see. Go on.

[Q] Playboy: When the war broke out in the Middle East, did you get involved in the back-room diplomacy?

[A] Maxwell: Absolutely. My message was consistent: to urge Israel to stay her hand, be ready for the worst but give the President and the allies a chance to finish off Saddam Hussein. I was in touch with all the actors.

[Q] Playboy: Such as?

[A] Maxwell: Bush to [Syrian president Hafez] Assad to Gorbachev to Shamir. I met with them and spoke with them on the phone.

[Q] Playboy: So you advised Shamir not to retaliate?

[A] Maxwell: I did. Let me put it this way: I applied heavy pressure in that regard and it was taken very seriously. Were I not to have applied that pressure, events might have evolved very differently.

[Q] Playboy: As a newspaper man, how do you feel about the censorship imposed by the military during the war?

[A] Maxwell: It was out of line but a necessary precaution. Vietnam was prolonged and bitter and, in many respects, damaging to all concerned because the media were allowed freedom to do as they pleased.

[Q] Playboy: Does that mean you support censorship to control public opinion?

[A] Maxwell: I didn't say it's all right to control public opinion. We were more than livid at the way the Pentagon wanted to start off the reporting [of the Gulf war] and we were part of a massive complaint. We would have defied them if they hadn't started the briefings when they did.

[Q] Playboy: And meanwhile, you were having discussions with everyone from Bush to Gorbachev.

[A] Maxwell: I was. Encouraging Bush and his Administration to finish off this guy.

[Q] Playboy: And encouraging Gorbachev to support Bush?

[A] Maxwell: Gorbachev said, "Look, I'll do anything to prevent war, but I will be faithful to the United Nations resolutions. As long as it is in that order."

[The next portion of the interview took place en route to Israel on Maxwell's jet.]

[Q] Playboy: In your relationship with Gorbachev, do you see yourself as a lobbyist for Israel?

[A] Maxwell: I'm no lobbyist. I am an advisor to Gorbachev--one of his two non-Russian advisors. The other one is a German called Christiansen, who is on the Deutschebank board.

[Q] Playboy: Are you concerned now about Gorbachev's hold on things?

[A] Maxwell: No. It is still possible that Gorbachev's policies will start working. I believe they shouldn't change the current course. It is difficult and it gets more difficult with time, but the alternatives are ten times worse. Who would they put in his place?

[Q] Playboy: Boris Yeltsin?

[A] Maxwell: Yeltsin's figure has been created by Gorbachev and Yeltsin will exist while Gorbachev exists. He is interesting only as an opposition leader.

[Q] Playboy: Do you advise Gorbachev about the Baltics and the internal struggles in the U.S.S.R.?

[A] Maxwell: We talk. He says he'll have to give the Baltics their freedom legally. He says it's got to be done constitutionally.

[Q] Playboy: How did your negotiations on Israel with Gorbachev's administration begin?

[A] Maxwell: About three years ago, I was invited to assist him with his economic and management problems. I asked why I should; I have enough to do. I was told the U.S.S.R. would recognize Israel in twelve months. We have gotten many of our Jews out; it has gone very well.

[The interview continues at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. Maxwell addresses an assistant.]

[A] Maxwell: Would you bring the Gorbachev pictures? [She brings one.] The one from Minneapolis, too. [She gives both to Maxwell. He shows the first photo, in which he is wearing an extraordinary tie: huge, splashy yellow stars on a red background. Gorbachev's tie is a dreary maroon.]

[Q] Playboy: Great tie.

[A] Maxwell: We are in the Kremlin. It is a Tass photograph released after my visit in December. And here, six months later, we are in Minneapolis at an official lunch given to him by Governor [Rudy] Perpich. [He shows the second photograph.]

[Q] Playboy: You're wearing the same tie you were before. So is Gorbachev.

[A] Maxwell: And that is why I show you these photographs: Here you have proof that Maxwell and Gorbachev have only two ties between them.

[Q] Playboy: What kinds of business have you done with Gorbachev?

[A] Maxwell: Where is this secretary? She keeps on disappearing. Raising capital. We started an investment fund through Merrill Lynch. I'll let you in on another secret. Remember the time when relations between the United States and Israel got so bad that [Secretary of State James] Baker said, in the House hearing, "Mr. Shamir wants to talk peace; our telephone number is area code 202 ... that's the White House switchboard." It was a most insulting moment. Soon after, Shamir sent me to America to see your new President to see what we could do about putting relations right. That has not been made public.

[Q] Playboy: When did you meet with the Administration for Shamir?

[A] Maxwell: Last autumn. I had two hours with Baker. It was a highly satisfactory meeting.

[Q] Playboy: What exactly came from it?

[A] Maxwell: The most important thing I carried away was that the security of Israel will never be traded by the United States. And I helped Israel be assured that, as a result of its restraint in the Middle East, the Soviet Union would be looking seriously at a peace treaty and working to improve relations. At the same time, all that would disappear if they interfered.

[Q] Playboy: Was there ever a time during the crisis that Israel almost retaliated?

[A] Maxwell: Yes, Israel was very, very much on edge. So Israel was ready, willing and able. If gas had been used, the Israeli air force would have annihilated Jordan. Instantly. And would have gone on, come what may, to annihilate the Scuds.

[Q] Playboy: Had gas been used, would you have continued to encourage restraint?

[A] Maxwell: No. Though while this was going on, many governments in Europe called me to intercede with Shamir.

[Q] Playboy: Was any of this published in your newspapers?

[A] Maxwell: No. Not once.

[Q] Playboy: Did you support the allies' attack when it happened or did you believe sanctions should have been tried longer?

[A] Maxwell: I was encouraging the attack at the earliest overture. In conversations with all parties.

[Q] Playboy: Including Gorbachev?

[A] Maxwell: Including Gorbachev.

[Q] Playboy: Did he tell you that he thought our attack was a mistake?

[A] Maxwell: He did.

[Q] Playboy: It was reported that you worked to aid countries hurt by the sanctions, particularly Bulgaria.

[A] Maxwell: I persuaded the German government to give them financing.

[Q] Playboy: Countries other than Bulgaria?

[A] Maxwell: Bulgaria is the only one that's public. I intervened with Turkey to let them have some gas.

[Q] Playboy: Is that related to Ozal's call the other day in Washington?

[A] Maxwell: Where's my secretary?

[Q] Playboy: Are you avoiding the question?

[A] Maxwell: I am. Carolyn? [Barwell comes in.] Has Genscher called back? The geniuses wouldn't give him my numbers. Try him for me. [She exits. In a few minutes, the phone rings. He speaks in German. After small talk, he turns deadly serious.] I have yet to discuss this matter with the president, but I believe it is time. I will let you know. That's right. [He hangs up.]

[Q] Playboy: Was that Genscher?

[A] Maxwell: There are some things I cannot discuss now.

[Q] Playboy: Let's move on. What do you see happening in the postwar Middle East?

[A] Maxwell: The world's policy has been to blame everything on Israel, to help the P.L.O. and keep down democracy at the same time. That's gone. Now, the first step, let's remove the refugees from the borders of Israel. Let's rehouse them.

[Q] Playboy: Where?

[A] Maxwell: The Arab countries are of a size that is unbelievable.

[Q] Playboy: So if you were sitting here with Shamir--

[A] Maxwell: Mr. Shamir and I have an identical policy.

[Q] Playboy: So you would not give up any territory or negotiate with the P.L.O.?

[A] Maxwell: We are ready to make peace, but they must accept that I can't have a Palestinian state pointing a revolver at the heart of Israel. There will be no state. The Palestinian state is in Jordan. There will be no problem once Jordan becomes Palestinian.

[Q] Playboy: Jordan may have something to say about that.

[A] Maxwell: What about Jordan? Hussein is a prick who moved to the other side. Israel, on the other hand, was fortunate to escape with relatively few fatalities, and her leadership and her people demonstrated both fortitude and resilience. Israel is better now than ever before.

[Q] Playboy: Have you talked with Genscher and Chancellor Helmut Kohl about Germany's relations with Israel?

[A] Maxwell: Things changed when Foreign Minister Genscher actually visited Israel toward the end of the war. It took that for the Germans to begin to comprehend the profound and shocking significance of German involvement in Iraq's gas-warfare potential. The decades of painful and painstaking attempts to heal history seemed wiped away by this new disclosure of German callousness in the service of evil. The supply now of the German submarines to the Israeli navy is welcome, but it's nowhere near enough to make amends. France and Germany, and Italy, too, must drastically revise policies and attitudes toward this region. If they don't, it will leave them bereft of any influence in the affairs of the Middle East.

[Q] Playboy: How much of your influence with world leaders comes from your control of media in their countries?

[A] Maxwell: Who knows? The fact is that they can talk to me and they know that I don't betray them; I don't use these sources to write stories.

[Q] Playboy: What if you disagreed with a leader on an issue? Would he risk opposing you if it meant that your newspapers might fight him in the next election?

[A] Maxwell: Perhaps.

[Q] Playboy: Would you use the leverage you have to convince him?

[A] Maxwell: I never have. I will make my point, that's all. It is not my business to run governments. I let it be known how I feel. I give advice.

[Q] Playboy: You've said that now that Bush has done so well in the Middle East, he should turn his attention to America.

[A] Maxwell: He should, but I fear he won't. He loves foreign policy; he's so successful at it.

[Q] Playboy: Does that worry you?

[A] Maxwell: It does, yes. Look at the social problems in your country. I regret that millions of Americans, when they lay their heads on the pillow at night, have to worry whether they will be protected from having huge dental or medical bills. If a catastrophe happens, they can't cope.

[Q] Playboy: Is Britain's national health system a better alternative?

[A] Maxwell: It's not perfect, but national health is important and I'm strongly in favor of it. And I'm in favor of the rich paying for it as much as they can. Education is another area we must spend more money on. We have public squalor and private affluence in many parts.

[Q] Playboy: So you encourage the government to have people like you pay for social services?

[A] Maxwell: Yes, within reason. If you kill the capitalist goose, there will not be investments. So it's a fine balance. President Reagan won the Cold War by switching huge resources from the civilian sector to the military. For that, we have to thank him. But whether the burden sharing should have been exactly the way he laid it out leaves a great deal to be argued about.

[Q] Playboy: Joblessness and homelessness are one price.

[A] Maxwell: But a lot of joblessness and homelessness is also due to people who are not willing to work. You mustn't just give help to just anyone who is jobless and homeless, because then you're encouraging it. You've got to be tough to be kind. But people who are sick, who can't help themselves, who are unprotected, deserve in our society to be helped. In some cases, free enterprise will take over. Because the school systems are turning out morons, businesses are recognizing that they had better pay for bettering education or else they will have to cope with it at the working level.

[Barwell interrupts Maxwell to remind him of a meeting with Shamir. After the meeting--"about business," is all Maxwell will say--the interview continues.]

[Q] Playboy: During the recent war, did your own war experience come back to you?

[A] Maxwell: It affects me a lot. I've known what it's like to kill.

[Q] Playboy: There's an extraordinary story about your war experience that has come back to haunt you. You shot a Nazi collaborator and then wrote to your wife about it, saying you "had a very amusing day yesterday." Did that occur?

[A] Maxwell: I'm afraid it did. I'm not proud of it. How can you be proud of shooting a human, even if he's with the enemy? With the benefit of hindsight, I wouldn't have written that.

[Q] Playboy: Did you get your allegiance to Israel from your family?

[A] Maxwell: Everyone was a Zionist when I was a child.

[Q] Playboy: Do you remember the last time you saw your parents?

[A] Maxwell: I remember. The Hungarians were taking over that part of Czechoslovakia and I said to my parents, "I'm leaving because I want to go and fight." They didn't want me to go, but I went anyway.

[Q] Playboy: When you think about your childhood, what do you remember?

[A] Maxwell: I remember how hungry I was, how cold I was and how much I loved my mother.

[Q] Playboy: And your parents were killed in the Holocaust.

[A] Maxwell: Yes. I cannot ever forget it. I can't forgive it. To me, the big mystery is why my parents went to their death without a complaint. I remember everything about that. My mother was a great influence on me. I was her favorite.

[Q] Playboy: The experience shaped much of your political and social involvement.

[A] Maxwell: I do a lot to make sure people don't forget, yes. It is behind my Zionism. No head of state I meet escapes me on that issue.

[A] Maxwell: Your socialist politics also, you've said, come from your mother.

[A] Maxwell: She was a member of the Social Democratic Party in Czechoslovakia, card-holder number two. And she blamed my father's and millions of others' joblessness on the Conservatives.

[Q] Playboy: What happened when you left Prague?

[A] Maxwell: I joined the Resistance. In 1940, I was caught and sentenced to death. I managed to escape to Yugoslavia, then to Bulgaria, Turkey, Syria, Palestine and, finally, Marseilles, where I fought again. I was wounded and imprisoned, but I managed to escape again to the part of France that was not occupied. I heard over the radio that the English were against Hitler and in September 1940 I went to Britain to fight.

[Q] Playboy: How did you choose the name Robert Maxwell?

[A] Maxwell: The army chose it for me. I had five names given to me. Robert Maxwell was the last.

[Q] Playboy: What followed the war?

[A] Maxwell: When I got out of the army, I got one hundred pounds from the British government. With that, I entered business.

[A secretary enters to tell Maxwell that Prime Minister Mulroney is calling. He asks to be excused, saying that he must speak with the prime minister. After that, he says he has business to attend to and the interview must continue later. He travels to several other cities before the interview resumes in New York.]

[Q] Playboy: For a time, you entered politics. Was it frustrating?

[A] Maxwell: In a sense, but there are several things I am proud of. I'm most proud of a bill I introduced, a clean-air act. It has been copied in one hundred twenty countries, including the United States.

[Q] Playboy: You once told your wife that you would be Britain's prime minister. What happened to that ambition?

[A] Maxwell: When I went into the House of Commons, I thought I was the brightest thing on two feet, that I would be prime minister in due course. But after six weeks, I discovered that anything I knew about, them guys knew more. I decided that was not my scene.

[Q] Playboy: You didn't win your re-election to the House of Commons, and you never tried again.

[A] Maxwell: No.

[Q] Playboy: Did you decide you could be more influential in business?

[A] Maxwell: There is more influence. I get more done in the media than by being a back-bench member of Parliament.

[Q] Playboy: How powerful are you? Are you more powerful than politicians?

[A] Maxwell: Yes, except for the two or three highest people in an administration.

[Q] Playboy: Yet even those people are held accountable; they have to be re-elected. You'll be here long after President Bush and Prime Minister John Major have been replaced.

[A] Maxwell: Certainly not. I'll be sixty-nine next June. I, too, have a contract that expires one day--with the good Lord.

[Q] Playboy: You were stopped in Japan in your attempt to acquire the Tokyo Times. Is that the one place where you can't extend your empire?

[A] Maxwell: At the moment. I was blocked from Germany for forty years. I'm now the biggest newspaper publisher there.

[Q] Playboy: Why do you bother with eastern Europe, where you hardly make any money?

[A] Maxwell: It is very important for the future. The Soviet Union and their former colonies are a market of three hundred fifty million people, all of them now freed from spending huge sums on defense and all of them desirous to improve their standard of living. They are now adopting our system. It is a playing field free and unencumbered.

[Q] Playboy: Do you anticipate losing money there in the short term?

[A] Maxwell: Certainly not. I intend to make money immediately. I have none to lose and I don't belong to the Salvation Army.

[Q] Playboy: Are you concerned that if Gorbachev loses his power, you will lose your investments?

[A] Maxwell: No. Things cannot go backward in the Soviet Union, only forward. It is difficult going forward, and that is what we're seeing.

[Q] Playboy: As you expand upward in the ranks of media companies, what's next in your sights?

[A] Maxwell: Newspapers in North America and central and eastern Europe.

[Q] Playboy: So we'll be seeing you in more American cities?

[A] Maxwell: If I succeed in making the News profitable, I will certainly go to other metropolitan cities where there are similar problems.

[Q] Playboy: Do you ever invest in a business because of a personal passion?

[A] Maxwell: No. The only passion I have is to be busy.

[Q] Playboy: You've said you are proud to have been married for nearly fifty years.

[A] Maxwell: To the same woman.

[Q] Playboy: What's the secret to a forty-six-year-old marriage these days?

[A] Maxwell: Believing that if you marry, you're married for life. And sticking to it. And being disciplined.

[Q] Playboy: What's the significance in your having stepped down and appointed your son Kevin to run Maxwell Communications?

[A] Maxwell: We hand over to the next generation. I can get on with the Daily News and other newspapers.

[Q] Playboy: But you've said that you don't believe in handing things to the next generation.

[A] Maxwell: I don't believe in leaving anything to be inherited. That's quite different. The next generation, if they are capable of managing, must be allowed to manage. Kevin runs Maxwell Communications and my son Ian has the Mirror Group. Let them get on with it.

[Q] Playboy: You're famous for having fired Ian for not picking you up at the airport. What happened?

[A] Maxwell: Ian was the president of our French and German companies. I went to inspect them. We had an appointment to meet at Orly Airport in Paris and when I arrived, he wasn't there. He telephoned at midnight and apologized for not meeting me at the airport. I asked if he had been visiting his girlfriend. He had been. I fired him. I taught them as youngsters, whenever you have to choose between duty and love, one must opt for duty. He chose love. He had to pay the bill. I fired him.

[Q] Playboy: Ian has since been rehired. Does that mean he learned his lesson?

[A] Maxwell: He accepts that duty is more important than love. It doesn't go well with the ladies, but that is the price. Since that time, Ian has written to me, "I often think you unnecessarily use a howitzer to shoot a chicken, but when the smoke clears, the chicken often discovers you were only firing blanks."

[Q] Playboy: You won't leave your children money, but do you have aspirations for the larger lessons you can leave them?

[A] Maxwell: The difference between right and wrong and that service to others is better than forever serving yourself.

[Q] Playboy: What do you think it is like working for you?

[A] Maxwell: I would hope it is exciting and demanding. If you survive the first few months.

[Q] Playboy: Do you have time to stop and smell the roses?

[A] Maxwell: No.

[Q] Playboy: Is that by design?

[A] Maxwell: No. It's just that once you get into the rat-race, as you reach my stage of responsibility, the demands are virtually beyond control. You can't just switch off in a global business and go to bed--because Tokyo is up, New York is up. Being in a global business, you pay the penalty.

[Q] Playboy: Do you at least get a two-week vacation, as some of your people do?

[A] Maxwell: No.

[Q] Playboy: What does your doctor say?

[A] Maxwell: I don't use doctors. Never go to them.

[Q] Playboy: In the case of media baron Citizen Kane, there was a secret motivation--Rosebud--driving him. What about you?

[A] Maxwell: Maybe. I don't know what it is. I'm sorry, but I must be off.

[Q] Playboy: To charm more birds out of more trees?

[A] Maxwell: Perhaps. But I haven't shot anybody. [He winks.] Yet.

"New York still has something to say. That I have chosen New York is a vote of tremendous confidence in this city."

"Margaret Thatcher gave Murdoch everything he wanted and deprived me of what I wanted as long as she could."

"I intend to make money immediately. I have no money to lose and I don't belong to the Salvation Army."