Playboy Interview: Roseanne & Tom Arnold

Roseanne Arnold is dressed entirely in black, from her blouse to her cowboy boots. Her mood is dark, too.

"My lines are mean," she complains to one of the writers of her top-rated TV show, "Roseanne." "Make them funnier."

"Perhaps you could point out a few of the ones you're talking about," suggests the writer.

"No," says Roseanne. "You figure it out." Then, ever the helpful star, she points to her script. "This line is not funny," she says. She points to another. "This line isn't funny, either." Her voice becomes more agitated as she finds more offenders.

"Not funny," she says, pointing. And then she continues:

"Not funny."

"Not funny."

"Not funny."

"Oh, honey," interrupts Tom Arnold, attempting to bail out the beleaguered writer before Roseanne can dismiss every line in the script. Tom has many roles in Roseanne's life and career--husband, executive producer of "Roseanne," star of "The Jackie Thomas Show"--but none is more important than his role as peacekeeper. His mere presence brings the exchange with the writer to an end. But not before Roseanne gets in the last word.

"Well, it's not funny," she says firmly and walks off.

Life backstage at "Roseanne" is not always so tense. Although it was once considered the stormiest set in Hollywood, with Roseanne and Tom firing producers and writers with a Steinbrenneresque fervor (Roseanne even fired Tom twice), success has apparently mellowed the controversial couple. "Roseanne," their flagship show, dominates the ratings week after week, and the newer "Jackie Thomas Show" managed to pull off something of a minor miracle: It made Tom--often derided as Roseanne's Yoko Ono--respectable.

Seldom have two performers traveled farther to get to the top. And perhaps never has such a journey been so well publicized and endlessly analyzed.

The Arnolds met in Minneapolis in 1983, when they were neophyte stand-up comics. He opened her show. They were both overweight, overindulgent products of overcomplicated lives. He had a reputation as an irresponsible wild man with a taste for drugs and alcohol. Roseanne Barr, as she was known then, was a foulmouthed and abrasive comic whose whining housewife humor struck a nerve among dissatisfied women and sympathetic men.

The two quickly became best friends and together they took refuge on the road from their tawdry home lives. Tom had just escaped three years as an Iowa meat-packer; Roseanne doubled as a house-trailer Frau with three kids and a husband who worked for the post office.

"Tom was like the guy me," Roseanne explains. So they dressed alike, heckled each other from offstage, got high together, spent sexless nights in the same hotel room and had more fun than two lower-middle-class couch potatoes thought they should ever be allowed.

And that's before either one of them became famous.

Roseanne hit it big first. After four years of perfecting the wisecracking, gum-chewing Domestic Goddess, she arrived in Los Angeles in 1985 and landed at the Comedy Store.

Within weeks, she had been discovered by "The Tonight Show" and signed to an HBO deal. Then, in 1988, the producing team behind "The Cosby Show" made her the star of her own series. It was an immediate ratings success.

Why? Barbara Ehrenreich, writing in "The New Republic," called her "the neglected underside of the Eighties. The overside is handled well enough by Candice Bergen and Madonna, who exist to remind us that talented women who work out are bound to become fabulously successful. Roseanne works a whole different beat, portraying the hopeless underclass of the female sex: polyester-clad, overweight occupants of the slow track; fast-food waitresses, factory workers, housewives. But Barr--and this may be her most appealing feature--is never a victim."

Her book, "Roseanne: My Life as a Woman," became a best-seller. And Roseanne has increasingly become one of the most powerful women in television, prompting "TV Guide" to call her this generation's Lucille Ball.

Tom's career took a bumpier path. After winning a Twin Cities Laugh Competition, he arrived in Los Angeles from Minneapolis in 1988, trying to build a career in comedy--and to forget such instances as a three-day stay in jail for urinating outside a restaurant. His old road buddy Roseanne took him in, despite the fact that she was still married to (but separated from) her former husband, Bill Pentland.

By then, Roseanne's public troubles had begun. The media took her to task for staff upheavals on "Roseanne." There was a palimony suit by her ex-husband and weird, exhibitionist behavior as Roseanne and Tom greeted the world as a couple: They showed off their tattoos in public and mooned people. She fired two managers and filed a lawsuit--since settled--against her former agency, Triad, for mishandling her career. And let's not forget her rendition of the national anthem, which earned her the enmity of President George Bush. She also came out as an incest survivor, causing her parents and siblings to denounce her publicly and leaving some in the media to wonder if Roseanne was telling the truth.

There's more: a flurry of harassment by the tabloids, including stolen love letters and claims of house-trashing; the rediscovery, via tabloid, of the daughter Roseanne gave up for adoption at 18; fistfights with photographers who annoyed them; caustic letters sent to journalists who criticized them; continuing battles with weight and other compulsions; an operation to untie her Fallopian tubes; breast reduction and other plastic surgeries; construction of a 26,000-squarefoot house in Iowa--the largest in the state--as their primary residence because, as they like to say, "We hate Hollywood."

But the biggest source of controversy was the relationship between Tom and Roseanne. Tom was well known as a guy whose cocaine binges were so bad he sometimes hallucinated that there were cameras in the walls making a drug-abuse documentary--with him as the star. Her family and soon-to-be-ex-husband called him a homewrecker. Some in Hollywood thought he was a talentless hanger-on, riding on Roseanne's skirttail. Others saw him as a Svengali who took over Roseanne's life and manipulated her into naming him executive producer of her show.

These events and others were fully documented in the tabloids, on talk shows and in the gossip columns. Yet despite the extensive media exposure, the Arnolds still confuse and fascinate people. To find out why, we sent Contributing Editor David Rensin to get the untold story. He met with the couple on and off for nine months at their Brentwood, California home, on the "Roseanne" set and at their temporary trailer in Iowa, next to the site of their as yet unfinished mansion. Rensin's report:

"The Tom and Roseanne I met were not the Tom and Roseanne the media led me to expect. For all the attention they've received, it seems that everyone wants either to sanitize the Arnolds or to sensationalize trivial aspects of their lives. Roseanne often complains that the press leaves out great chunks of what she says in its reports. One reason they agreed to talk to me at such length was that, for once, they could hold forth uncensored.

"The two seem like a perfect couple. During our sessions, their love was evident and their friendship even more so. Roseanne radiates both vulnerability and self-confidence, while Tom is a mountain of support and patience, even if he can't sit still for more than five seconds.

"The Arnolds are everywhere. Their names are thrust into our collective consciousness constantly. We began by asking them why they get so much attention."

[Q] Playboy: There's hardly a day when your name isn't in a magazine, a newspaper or mentioned on TV. How do you explain America's fascination with Roseanne?

[A] Roseanne: It's because I'm so goddamn cool.

[Q] Playboy: What's so cool about you?

[A] Roseanne: I'd rather be sorry than safe. I'm interesting because I'm not afraid to think, to make mistakes, to disagree, to stand alone. I'm not going to tell someone I like them if I don't. I can't work with people I don't respect. I'm not afraid to fight.

[Q] Playboy: Clearly. You always seem to be involved in a controversy.

[A] Roseanne: Some of my controversies I've chosen, a lot I haven't--they're thrust upon me just because I'm me.

[Q] Playboy: What do you mean?

[A] Roseanne: I made up my mind when I got into show business that I was always going to be honest and wouldn't try to hide anything.

[Q] Playboy: That's certainly not standard operating procedure in Hollywood.

[A] Roseanne: That's why I like it. Look, I'm a comic. I'm not the fucking president. Everything comics do is to expose hypocrisy and dishonesty, so why wouldn't I be honest, for Christ's sake? Besides, I'm not ashamed of anything I've done or lived through.

[Q] Playboy: But don't you sometimes reveal too much?

[A] Roseanne: I still have secrets I haven't told anyone.

[A] Tom: No, you don't. You used them up on Donahue and Sally Jessy Raphaël.

[A] Roseanne: I've never just gone out and flapped my mouth. I don't talk about anything that I'm not comfortable with or haven't decided beforehand to talk about. I make those choices after a lot of thought. I don't talk about my sexual fantasies like Madonna does. I didn't pose for a book and call it Sex. I'm not self-promoting to make money. I say what I say because my fans want to hear it.

[Q] Playboy: Hear what?

[A] Roseanne: Stuff about child abuse, for instance. It's never brought up, so I'm going to do it. It's the stuff that's supposed to be silent, and I'm prepared to break all kinds of silences.

[Q] Playboy: We'll come to that topic in a while, but--

[A] Tom: If Madonna were in recovery and got to the point where she could talk about that kind of stuff, it would help a lot of people, too. For recovering alcoholics and recovering sex-abuse victims, part of recovery is talking about it.

[Q] Playboy: What do you mean "if Madonna were in recovery"? Are you saying she may have incest or abuse issues herself?

[A] Tom: I assume that she's in such a vacuum, as was Elvis Presley with his drug problem. Who's going to get to her to help her?

[A] Roseanne: Her whole attitude about sex is that of a sex addict. Sex addicts are totally devoid of any spirituality, any connection to the rest of their lives. That's what she's touting as liberation, but it's not. It's the opposite of liberation.

[Q] Playboy: Have you spoken with her about this?

[A] Roseanne: No. As if she'd fucking listen to me. I'd like to talk to her about it because I think she's talented and I think it's sad. She's very vulnerable. Also very intelligent. I don't know if Madonna's problem is incest, but being obsessed with your sexuality is a sign that you've been sexually abused.

[Q] Playboy: Really?

[A] Roseanne: Yeah. It's not normal to be only about sex. Anybody who has it as number one is fucked up. You can quote me on that. Her entire art is about that. Maybe when you're an adolescent, sex is really number one. But not when you're an adult, or a parent. Sex isn't gross or dirty or anything like that. I just don't like it when people shove it down our throats like it's supposed to make up for all the other stuff that's been taken away. Madonna talks about how people have sexual hang-ups that she's trying to loosen them from. People are too loose about sex. They feel there's nothing connected to our bodies, our spirits, our minds, our lives about sex. Meanwhile, there's tons of abuse going on. Hardly anything is being done about child sexual abuse and the way it's handled in the courts, in the media, everywhere. That's what I feel I was put on the earth for, and I'm going to do it. And I have been doing it.

[Q] Playboy: So it's blowtorch time for child abusers?

[A] Roseanne: A-bomb time.

[A] Tom: We believe that a lot of judges are pedophiles.

[A] Roseanne: And that a lot of lawmakers are, too.

[A] Tom: That's the only way you can explain it.

[Q] Playboy: Explain what?

[A] Roseanne: Powerful businessmen, people with power and money. They all protect one another. But we also have power and we're going to do something about it, even if it is just to talk.

[Q] Playboy: Let's get back to you. As well-intentioned as you are, won't this subject create more of the controversy some people--including your sister Stephanie--suggest you need?

[A] Roseanne: I'm not addicted to controversy. To hear that pisses me off. I don't like controversy. I didn't think going public about incest and child abuse would be offensive. I thought it would be important. I do it because I have the public's ear. And because people need to listen.

[Q] Playboy: But abuse issues are only a fraction of what has kept your name in the headlines.

[A] Roseanne: Well, I didn't think showing my tattoo would be so incredibly shocking, but it turned out to be. And if I knew how people were going to freak when I sang the national anthem, I wouldn't have done it.

[Q] Playboy: The latest uproar is over your faxing caustic notes to TV critics who lambasted The Jackie Thomas Show.

[A] Roseanne: I will fax people for the rest of my fucking career and my life. So be watching!

[A] Tom: Madonna started faxing after Rosie did. People want her to fax. They'll write bad reviews now and go, "Please fax me." And she doesn't just send one, she sends twenty.

[A] Roseanne: It's so that one fucker can't get no money off it. It's just a copy, it isn't an original. Otherwise they'd give it to their grandkids and try to make money off it.

[Q] Playboy: Of the three critics you've faxed, your missive to USA Today's Matt Roush was the most controversial because of references to his sexuality. You say the fax was private, but he made it public.

[A] Roseanne: He once reviewed Tom's cable special and said it was the worst thing on TV and that he hated Tom, and that if Tom gets a show he's never going to watch it and that he never watches my show when Tom's on. That isn't a review, that's a personal attack. I personally attacked him so he would know what it felt like. I wrote, "You're in no position to judge anything about heterosexuals."

[Q] Playboy: So you're implying--

[A] Roseanne: He absolutely is gay. I could tell by the way he wrote the review. It was heterophobic. It was full of fear and loathing for a heterosexual male. You can read homophobia, you can also read heterophobia. If you're a student of the media, you can tell everything about people--their race, culture, etc.--by the way they write. Writers are so fucking smug they think they're above all the things that make them up, but they're not. They're not godlike, they're human beings, and I get tired of their smugness.

[Q] Playboy: Until this latest flurry of media activity, your camp had been calm for about six months. And all of a sudden, just when people were starting to think--

[A] Roseanne: I am never going to be that calm or whatever they think I'm going to turn into. I'm not. If they don't get it by now, it's time to wake up. I'm not Cinderella and I'm not a fucking princess. I'm me and I have a big mouth. I am never going to shut up.

[A] Tom: And it's not like we needed the publicity. At the time, Roseanne was number two for the week and The Jackie Thomas Show had just premiered.

[Q] Playboy: So we can always count on your taking offense at something?

[A] Roseanne: Of course. Now you get it. I could cause all kinds of trouble every fucking day if I wanted to. But I don't want to because I want to live my life.

[Q] Playboy: You're slowing down?

[A] Roseanne: Yeah. I'm not quite as angry as I was in the past. I'm healthier. But things still tick me off. And pompous assholes tick me off--not that I'm not a pompous asshole in my own right.

[Q] Playboy: Don't you ever worry about overexposure?

[A] Roseanne: It's funny, but the more I do, the more people ask me to do. I'm not just a one-note sitcom actor. I'm a performer, a writer, a producer, an actress, a personality, a stand-up comic and a spokeswoman. And I don't mind if people think of me as a fat, jolly housewife, either. That's also part of me. Everything I do has several levels to it because I want as many people as possible to get my work.

[A] Tom: In Hollywood stardom is like gold. If you hide out, people are supposed to want you more and your market goes up. It's different with Rosie. Her persona is so accessible that people need to see her. Everything she does is the highest-rated. The Saturday Night Live we did was the highest-rated one in ten years. And during sweeps week, every top show wants her. Her fans can't get enough.

[A] Playboy: You realize that some people find you offensive.

[Q] Tom: People who get offended by us offend me.

[A] Roseanne: There are reasons why people are offended, and those reasons are hideously offensive. Fuck 'em, I don't give a shit. I hope they are offended. But I don't go out there to offend, I just go out there to be me. The fact that I'm a Jewish woman offends a lot of fucking people. That I'm breathing and that I'm a Jew is very offensive to a lot of people, to really get down to it. I don't care about them. I hope they are offended. Not even hope they are--I don't give a shit.

[Q] Playboy: What guides you?

[A] Roseanne: My whole career is guided by God, so that's why I don't have to answer to any earthly shit.

[Q] Playboy: That explains everything.

[A] Roseanne: I take ultimate responsibility for everything I do. But if I feel that God wants me to do something, I'll do it even if I don't want to.

[Q] Playboy: What has God told you to do?

[A] Roseanne: To come out as an incest survivor. I didn't want to do that. It was very painful for me. But I felt God wanted me to blow the lid off it, to make it come into the light because it could save a lot of children.

[Q] Playboy: Anything career-wise?

[A] Roseanne: Yeah, all my career is God stuff, too.

[Q] Playboy: Let's be crystal clear here, so this doesn't end up on the cover of some tabloid.

[A] Tom: He's right, honey. You have to be very clear on this.

[A] Roseanne: I am being clear. It's a deeply spiritual feeling. It's within me. It's not a disembodied voice coming from within a plant. I feel something within that I know is God-consciousness. It leads me to do certain things. I think God talks to everybody. He or She doesn't talk to just me. If we're really going to get down to it, I'm here for godly purpose.

[Q] Playboy: Are the two of you believers in reincarnation?

[A] Roseanne: I believe in every religious tenet and more.

[A] Tom: What does "tenet" mean?

[Q] Playboy: Principle.

[Q] Tom: What about the one that says the more Jews you kill, the more whores you get in heaven?

[A] Roseanne: A whore in heaven? I hadn't heard of that one. I was talking more about God and consciousness and belief rather than how we degrade ourselves and one another. I don't believe in that shit. I'm spiritual but I don't believe in any religion. "Roseanne, do you hear voices?" Just ask me that.

[Q] Playboy: Roseanne, do you hear voices?

[A] Roseanne:[Chuckles] Yeah. "Roseanne, do you think you're Joan of Arc?" Go ahead. Ask me.

[Q] Playboy: Roseanne, do you think you're Joan of Arc?

[A] Roseanne: Yes.

[Q] Tom: Do you really?

[A] Roseanne: Somewhat like that.

[A] Tom: But you don't think you're that Joan of Arc. C'mon. I'm going to call Arlene. Stay with me here.

[A] Roseanne: He's gonna call my therapist.

[Q] Playboy: Perhaps you're speaking metaphorically--a feeling of having been figuratively burned at the stake.

[A] Roseanne: Yes, absolutely.

[A] Tom: Joan of Arc died. Only a few have risen above that and become multimillionaires.

[A] Roseanne: He's very pragmatic.

[Q] Playboy: And on that note, isn't it true that statements such as these bring problems on yourself?

[A] Roseanne: That just excuses all the assholes from being assholes, all the sexists from being sexists. I don't like being torn apart in public for no damn good reason when I'm just being myself. My plan has always been to stay two years ahead of the media because that's where the rest of the country is. That way, they can't figure me out, try to squash me and dispose of me. Get it? The media are so unhip they're two years behind. Fortunately, staying two years ahead ain't hard because the media, for the most part, are a bunch of lunkheads.

[Q] Playboy: Didn't the media attacks really start when you wanted more control of Roseanne?

[A] Roseanne: Yeah. But it's directly related to the power--their word--that I assumed by firing a male producer. But any thinking person is potentially a threat to the ruling class.

[A] Tom: I thought it was weird when everybody was up in arms all over the country about the trouble she had on the show. It's not like she was kicking ass at the Vatican, clearing people out of there. She was doing a TV show. Think about it: It's a stupid TV show.

[Q] Playboy: On one hand the media want your drawing power, and on the other they're saying, "Don't you know that you being you is offensive?"

[A] Roseanne: We are not Mr. and Mrs. Robert Stack, nor will we ever be.

[A] Tom: Unless they take an ugly turn.

[A] Roseanne: To whitewash us means to take the working class out of us. But we have no interest in moving up to the bourgeoisie.

[Q] Playboy: Nonetheless, you're making good use of your success and money. A fancy house. A Bentley in the driveway. The huge spread in Iowa. Jewelry. Your new diner in Eldon, Iowa.

[A] Roseanne: Well, I can buy a whole bunch of shit. It's cool. But our values and political ideals aren't any different. We're still pro-union all the way. Tom used to work in a meat-packing plant. Money and success didn't change nothing except that now we can get in really good restaurants. We don't have to wait in line.

[Q] Playboy: Tom, you once said that you two are "America's worst nightmare--white trash with money."

[A] Tom: That really scares people. What are they going to do about us? We're famous, we have a lot of money, what the fuck are they going to do? People can still be rude, but we can do whatever we want. And that's great. Fortunately, we're nice and we don't abuse people.

[A] Roseanne: We're not sleazy.

[A] Tom: We can be a little naive, but we've learned a lot. [Belches loudly]

[A] Roseanne: Like not belching or eating during interviews.

[A] Tom: No, never learned that.

[Q] Playboy: Do you like television?

[A] Roseanne: I am the hugest couch potato. I love TV, watch it all the time. I hate anybody who says "I never watch TV" or "I only watch PBS." That person is a fucking idiot and should be slapped severely because TV is totally where it's at. On the other hand, most people who critique TV, who write about TV, don't like TV--and that's the other fucking funny thing about it. That I, one of the world's biggest couch potatoes, am on TV represents a victory for all couch potatoes, for all people on the other side of the tube. I got through. I made it. My show is exactly the show I wanted to see on TV. The medium is absolutely the fucking message. Fuck film. That's for pretentious, egotistical, elitist assholes.

[Q] Playboy: Probably no television series did more to depict the bleakness of the recession. How do you take to the idea that Roseanne played a great part in getting George Bush kicked out of office?

[A] Roseanne: Thanks. I set out to do just that.

[A] Tom: Two years ago. We never wanted to mention it, but we wanted to show--

[A] Roseanne: We wanted to show what was going on.

[A] Tom: What the American family was going through politically.

[A] Roseanne: I've been offended by all this talk of the great upward mobility in America. I wanted to say, Hey, that isn't what's fucking happening, not in my world and not in the majority of people's worlds. And it ain't right. Jobs got sent overseas. Who got rich? Those fuckers and their buddies.

[A] Tom: And then they blame the Japanese. I love how they always manage to blame the Japanese.

[A] Roseanne: They always blame another race.

[Q] Playboy: How do you two feel about George Bush now?

[A] Tom: Let me tell you a story. We had Loretta Lynn on the show earlier this year--

[A] Roseanne: She's friends with Bush. She says that she came unglued all over him for what he said about me. She had fucked up the national anthem, too.

[A] Tom: I'll tell it so it doesn't sound like you're telling it.

[A] Roseanne: OK, go for it.

[A] Tom: So Loretta said that Bush took her aside and said, "You know what? I screwed up. I was too hard on Roseanne. I know she was doing her best. The press put a microphone in my face and I said she was disgraceful. I screwed up and I always felt bad about that." That was pretty cool of him.

[Q] Playboy: How's the show going to change now that Clinton's in?

[A] Tom: The Corners will win the lottery.

[A] Roseanne: We have no idea if Clinton is going to be any better or any worse. The only thing we liked about him was that he ignited a little bit of hope in people. And we're always for hope.

[A] Tom: And civil rights and women's rights. If he sticks by those things, then he's our man.

[A] Roseanne: And if he doesn't do what he said he was going to do, we'll be on his shit, too.

[Q] Playboy: You went to the inaguration?

[A] Tom: Yeah, we liked it.

[Q] Playboy: Have any private moments with the president?

[A] Roseanne: We met him once.

[A] Tom: I blew him.

[A] Roseanne: Honey!

[A] Tom: Yeah, we think he and Hillary are real nice. We especially like him because he also survived the media. They're survivors within their marriage. That's a great example for a lot of people.

[Q] Playboy: What were you thinking when, as a housewife with three kids, you started out to make it as a comic?

[A] Roseanne: When the Eighties started, I thought it was time that a woman spoke as a woman about being a woman. My background was ten years of feminist politics. Reagan was in, I was working in a feminist bookstore in Denver. Budgets were being slashed for women and children. I remember panicking because we knew one homeless person. And things were getting worse. So I decided to get vocal, to go out and start yelling because nothing else had worked. I've always taken up causes. I've always had something to say. I suppose because of my fucking weird life, my family problems and being raised as a Jew in Utah, I've always been very interested in exposing the rotting core of everything. I got disgusted and went through a marching-and-speaking phase. Then I got amused. Then I became a comic.

[Q] Playboy: Do you recall the transition that took you from disgusted to amused to the comedy stage?

[A] Roseanne: Just before I was to give a speech at the University of Colorado at Boulder about feminist ethics, using these four-dollar academentia words, I suddenly realized that there was no such thing as feminist ethics because there was no such thing as feminism anywhere in the world.

[Q] Playboy: That would probably surprise a lot of feminists.

[A] Roseanne: It's not allowed to exist. It threatens the status quo power structure. It rises up and is squashed, over and over.

[Q] Playboy: By status quo, do you mean male status quo?

[A] Roseanne: It's way beyond that because women have bought into it, too, and they profit from it. I don't buy this men against women stuff. The status quo starts with hierarchical thinking. That's the core of everything that's wrong. It comes from the idea that man is above nature. Then it's man above woman--one half of the race serving the other, ad infinitum, in endless subdivisions. That's an ecofeminist viewpoint.

[Q] Playboy: Critics have said that you are antimale.

[A] Roseanne: I don't blame men. That makes me gag. We all did it.

[A] Tom:[Nudges Roseanne] You hate men. You know, men.

[A] Roseanne: I have never said I hate men. You're full of shit, I have not said that.

[A] Tom: You used to say it.

[A] Roseanne: But did I say that today? [To interviewer] No, because Tom has totally mellowed me.

[A] Tom: And tell him what changed you, the first time that--

[A] Roseanne: Oh, please.

[A] Tom: You said it before.

[A] Roseanne: I'm not going to say it in this Interview.

[A] Tom: Oh, OK.

[Q] Roseanne: Shall I tell him that line?

[A] Tom: Yes, dear.

[A] Roseanne: It's gonna piss everybody off. [Pauses] I used to be a feminist, until the first time Tom grabbed me by the hair, threw me up against the wall and fucked me in the ass.

[A] Tom: What's wrong with that? I think that's nice.

[A] Roseanne: Yeah, that is nice. That's every guy's fantasy--that his wiener saved your life.

[A] Tom: Funny you'd use the term wiener after saying "fucked in the ass."

[A] Roseanne: That's one of the things that makes me so charming. [To Tom]Maybe you should leave. I have to go on about my feminist ethics.

[Q] Tom: Hey, I'd like to hear them, too. Honey, will you make me dinner?

[A] Roseanne: Fuck off.

[Q] Playboy: So, you had a revelation?

[A] Roseanne: I decided to talk about how things are, not how they should be; to stop dealing with theoretical shit and start telling the truth--a revolutionary act.

[Q] Playboy: Why haven't you talked to the media about your feminist background or beliefs before?

[A] Roseanne: I've talked about this stuff to the media for years, but it never gets printed. The media only want to hear about how much I eat because it's threatening to read about a woman who has vision and a fucking brain. That there's a woman as pissed off as I am should be everywhere, not only in Ms. It's simple. I'm just sick of the shit like, "The fat, jolly Roseanne loves to eat her brownies." I would like it for once to be about me as an artist rather than only the sensational aspects of my personal life--which, of course, I don't mind talking about, either. I'd like it to be about my body of work, not just my body. I'll be watching to see how this one comes out.

[Q] Playboy: What if, when people read this, they think, This woman is just blowing smoke through her ass. She should go back to being funny.

[A] Roseanne: That's funny. They probably will think that.

[Q] Playboy: You once said, "Stand-up was a victory over my whole life." Why?

[A] Roseanne: Comedy is the only chance I have to speak about what it's like being a woman in this culture. I knew at first that everyone would go, "Can you believe the things she says?" One joke was: "Men are here for one reason only: to serve me, to bring back food and build a comfortable hive for me and my larvae, to willingly move on when it's time for a younger drone with more stamina. Oh, call me old-fashioned." That's pretty radical to say your second time on The Tonight Show. Frightening. Threatening.

[Q] Playboy: Obviously not that threatening.

[A] Roseanne: I used to be the most foulmouthed comic. But I figured out how to take a radical thought and make it mainstream through wording and packaging. Instead of espousing political theory, I changed it into women's point-of-view jokes. But it wasn't just role reversal. I didn't want to have a husband named Fang, because that had already been done--and very well. Men became the butt of my jokes, only I tried not to be mean-spirited. I joked about how we women thought instead of how we looked. About our hypocrisy. As for packaging, I used the cover of being everyone's fat mother, fat neighbor. I used a funny voice.

[Q] Playboy: A thin, shapely woman couldn't say those things?

[A] Tom: If an insecure man looks at Roseanne, instead of having to deal with who she is, he says, "She's crazy and she's fat." That way he doesn't have to deal with the fact that she's powerful, intelligent and brilliant. Oprah is another great example. Men think, Oh, she's fat. That way it's OK for them to be average. That's how men get by with their pride.

[A] Playboy: Weight has been a constant battle for each of you, but you've both slimmed down.

[A] Tom: We just don't want to get huge.

[A] Roseanne: We wouldn't be able to have sex if we weighed five hundred pounds. Well, we'd probably figure out a way.

[Q] Playboy: Can America accept a thin Roseanne?

[Q] Roseanne: Who gives a shit?

[Q] Playboy: OK, we'll move on. From the first season of Roseanne there have been problems with producers and writers. Is the turnover on your show any more unusual than the turnover on other shows?

[A] Roseanne: No. We have a different rule from other shows. We turn over our writers every two years, for the sake of freshness.

[A] Tom: At least. Bob Meyers, the guy who people say we most recently fired, is writing our movie for Jon Peters. He was up with us to win the Golden Globe. He's a great guy. We gave him a Rolex. I recruit writers knowing that every two years I'll turn them over.

[Q] Playboy: Do you tell them this?

[A] Tom: Do they know it? Hey, I hire them for one season at a time, then I'll renew them for another season. You know where they go when they move on from our show? They move up a notch and run other shows.

[Q] Roseanne: They don't disappear and start selling shoes. They get multimillion-dollar deals at Disney.

[Q] Playboy: Are you angry you've never won an Emmy?

[A] Roseanne: If and when I get one, I already have my speech.

[Q] Playboy: What is it?

[A] Roseanne: "Now what the hell am I gonna bitch about?" And then I'm gone. That's all I'm going to say.

[Q] Playboy: You once took out an ad in a Hollywood trade paper that read: "Hollywood is a back-stabbing, scum-sucking, small-minded town. But thanks for the money." Do you really believe that?

[A] Roseanne: Yeah. There are plenty of small-minded, judgmental people. And there are great people out here, too.

[Q] Playboy: Your opinions on this matter are quite judgmental.

[A] Roseanne: Let's just say there's a limit to my bullshit.

[Q] Tom: When I first came to town, I thought it was about quality, but it's about politics. On our show we spend so much time on the quality, we don't have time for the politics. We only have a certain amount of time. True?

[A] Roseanne: Let's just say there's a limit to my bullshit.

[Q] Tom: When I first came to town, I thought it was about quality, but it's about politics. On our show we spend so much time on the quality, we don't have time for the politics. We only have a certain amount of time. True?

[A] Roseanne: Yeah, really. Not enough time to kiss ass. Hey, I finally figured out what my problem is: I just don't know how to kiss ass. Now, it's not like I can't get along with nobody, because I will suck the dick. But I'd rather suck dick than kiss ass, because sucking the dick is a decent business proposition. You get your twenty bucks up front. I don't know how much it's going for now, but in my day it was twenty. You make the deal, you do the thing. It's a finite thing, if you know how to do it right. But kissing ass just goes on and on in the hope that people someday will appreciate it. They never do because they just want you to kiss their ass more. They're like, "Hey, Roseanne, could you kiss my friend's ass, too? And bring him a cup of coffee on your way back." I tell you what: I'll take a cocksucker over an ass-kisser any day. That's the American way.

[A] Tom: What's bad is when you spend years and years kissing the wrong ass.

[Q]Playboy: Didn't you once say that you expected the writers and producers of Roseanne to kiss your ass?

[A] Roseanne: I said, "Let me just understand something. How come you all are not kissing my ass, since I let you work on my fucking show?" They were really shocked. They thought that I should be kissing their asses because they had given me a television show.

[Q] Playboy: Aren't you somewhat grateful?

[A] Roseanne: I was supposed to just show up and do it and be grateful--like Tim Allen, whose Home Improvement show is a total rip-off of my show.

[A] Playboy: Matt Williams, the first Roseanne producer you fired, is running that show.

[A] Roseanne: I wish Matt Williams the very best. We had our big fight over the "Created By" credit, and when he got it, in my mind, he was gone. But just about everything I blamed him for I have since found out was not his fault. He was a victim like me.

[Q] Playboy: A victim of what?

[A] Roseanne: My former agents. They sold me down the river. They were supposed to get me my "Created By" credit. Instead, they were so concerned about their packaging deal that they sold me out for shit, which put me head-to-head with Matt in the first place. So he did some desperate things like humiliate me in front of the cast. I don't like him for that, but it don't mean nothing anymore.

[Q] Playboy: Have you told Tim Allen any of this?

[A] Roseanne: I told him, "Matt's going to try to get your 'Created By' credit, and it's your act. So you make sure you get the credit." Well, Matt got it and then Tim was all pissed. He got the "Creative Consultant" shit that Matt gave me, too. But Tim said, "I'm not going to fight it because I'm just lucky to be on TV and have my own show." Which is exactly how I didn't think. When I was in Tim's position, I told them I couldn't understand how they were so out of it and arrogant. I wasn't going to be grateful when I was doing all the fucking work.

[A] Tom: Here's the system: You come into town, you get fucked over. Then you get fucked over again, and then you get fucked over again. Then you say, "Fuck it, I'm going to get what's mine." And the only way to get what's yours, what you've already lost, is to fuck over other people. And that continues the cycle.

[A] Playboy: You forced out another producer, Jeff Harris. Then he took out a trade ad that said he was taking a vacation in the relative peace and quiet of Beirut.

[A] Roseanne: And I answered back, "They won't think you're funny in Beirut, either." He tried to fire Tom all the time. His whole life became about firing Tom. Then Tom choked him. It was fun.

[Q] Playboy: Did you physically choke him?

[A] Tom: He walked into my office and tried to fire me. Sat down with his big cigar and said, "Well, it's not working out." I go, "Yep, it's not." And then he goes, "So I want you to move on." I go, "What? What are you saying?"

"I want you to clean out your office."

I go, "What?"

"Cease and desist."

Then I lost it on him. "Get the fuck out of here. You're fired, man. I'm going to have your office."

[A] Roseanne: And he does have his office.

[Q] Playboy: Were you married at the time?

[A] Roseanne: We were living together. That's how people are here: Their arrogance blinds them.

[A] Tom: Do you think they'd fire Cosby's wife? Hell, no. What kind of balls would you have to have to do something that stupid? Of course, at first, he told you he wanted to fire me and you said to me, "Sorry, honey." I said, "What do you mean he's going to fire me? It's your show." You go, "Oh, yeah!"

[A] Roseanne: I realized, fuck, it is my show. I realized that after you choked him. Tom comes down and goes, "I'll fire his ass! He's not going to fucking fire me!"

[A] Tom: "He's going to have to fucking carry me out of here." I have been fired three times on the show.

[A] Roseanne: Tell him about when I fired you, honey.

[A] Tom: I was fired from the first show. I was the warm-up guy. I was so bad, I deserved it. Then Rosie fired me my first day as a writer because we had an argument. I got hired back the second day. She had called to apologize that evening, wondering if we could still talk on the phone as friends. I said, "What the fuck? Fuck you!"

[A] Roseanne: So he hung up on me.

[A] Tom: I was so pissed. Then I went back to work the next day.

[Q] Playboy: Now you work together and you go home together.

[A] Tom: We like that a lot.

[A] Roseanne: It's not like we're constantly hugging, kissing and chatting. Most of the day we ignore each other.

[A] Tom: Although, you would like that if we hugged and chatted all day.

[A] Roseanne: I would like that if we did, but he ignores me.

[A] Tom: I got a lot to do, man. Just like you do.

[A] Roseanne: I tell him he's really kind of a boring guy. Once you get past the veneer, he's just a regular boring husband who just wants to watch sports all the fucking time. And I'm a regular bitchy wife who just wants to go out and do something.

[A] Tom: Yet, when we do go out and do something, she doesn't like it because she realizes her true love is bitching about never doing anything. And once you start taking her out, you take that away from her.

[Q] Playboy: ABC has given you a two-year renewal for $2 million per show. Where does the money go?

[A] Tom: The show's license fee was reported at $2 million.

[A] Roseanne: It's incorrect.

[A] Tom: It's far off. They don't know.

[A] Roseanne: Nobody knows.

[A] Tom: If they knew the figure, it would scare everybody.

[A] Roseanne: Honey, tell him. [Whispers in his ear]

[A] Tom: OK. I can tell you that Rosie is the highest-paid entertainer ever, as she should be. She has a bigger deal than Crosby's.

[Q] Playboy: You're well paid. Are you also a good actress?

[A] Roseanne: I'm a great actress.

[Q] Playboy: How proud are you of your movie debut in She-Devil?

[A] Roseanne: What a fucking piece of shit, huh? It was a terrible disappointment to me. Imagine, my first movie, with Meryl Streep, Sylvia Miles and Linda Hunt. How much more incredible can you get? I was honored and in awe. But the direction stank. Susan Seidelman [the director] fucked up my movie career.

[Q] Playboy: Did you talk to her about this?

[A] Roseanne: No. She asked me what I was going to do to promote the movie and I said, "I don't know, what are you going to do about my fucking career, which you ruined? "I'm only getting movie offers again now, after two years.

[Q] Playboy: What do you think about Howard Stern, who's been making lots of fat jokes at your expense, such as: "Imagine Roseanne naked"?

[A] Tom: Imagine him naked!

[A] Roseanne: We hear about it. He's pissed because we won't come on his show. But if someone is a jack-off like Howard Stern and everyone knows it, I'm not going to get angry at that. Besides, next to Joey Ramone, no one is uglier than Howard Stern.

[A] Tom: But Joey's talented. Joey's a legend. Howard thinks that when he goes home to his wife that it's OK, because he's just offensive for a living. But that's bullshit. It has repercussions. He's offending survivors of incest, women. He's racist as hell. Listening to him makes you hate Jews, because he's Jewish.

[Q] Playboy: Let's get back to an earlier subject: incest and child abuse. Some people don't believe your story and think it's another publicity ploy or the work of an unstable mind. Even People ran an article exploring the veracity of your claim.

[A] Roseanne: Like I couldn't think of anything better than to say I'm a survivor of incest. Like I couldn't come up with a better media event than that. Like I don't have enough money or my show isn't number two. What the fuck did I have to gain from that--except for judgmental people going, "Oh, it's another Roseanne thing"? Well, they weren't there. Fuck them. Just fuck them. They really piss me off. People say this stuff about any survivor who comes forward. They try to discredit you. And that's part of the reason why it continues, why it's accepted. To question any victim is hideously immoral.

[Q] Playboy: What can be done to improve things?

[A] Roseanne: People are going to have to redefine the term child abuse. People say, "Well, we only spanked her, it wasn't abusive." Well, fuck, that is abusive.

[Q] Playboy: Is it true that your child abuse never involved actual sex?

[A] Roseanne: Actual sex? You mean penetration? Well, there's way more to "actual sex" than penetration. Besides, we're not talking about the orifice that was raped, we're talking about the child.

[Q] Playboy: In your case, your mom allegedly put soap in your vagina. Your father allegedly fondled his penis, made Peeping Tom photos, chased you with dirty underwear.

[A] Roseanne: The things that my parents did to me are innumerable. What you read is only what I talk about. I'm not going to give child molesters anything to jack off about.

[Q] Playboy: There's more?

[A] Roseanne: I'm not going to say anything titillating for anybody. I know how people think. Let me sum up my childhood: When I was two or three years old, I started to walk in front of moving cars. I did that until I was sixteen and got hit by a car. People are going to have to figure out why by themselves.

[A] Playboy: In an issue of TV Guide, your sister Stephanie contended that your sex-abuse charges come from an "over-heated imagination."

[A] Roseanne: I'm staggered and speechless that she, of anyone in the world, would say that.

[Q] Playboy: Why?

[A] Roseanne: I know that it happened to Stephanie, too. My parents gave me custody of her when she was seventeen years old. I got her out of their house when she phoned me from her bedroom and told me that Dad had molested her. I said, "You get your ass on a plane." She came to live with me and my three kids. I went into bankruptcy because of that. And my other sister, Geraldine, came out and lived in our basement, too. For five years no one spoke to my parents about it. But my sisters and I talked about it every day for hours and hours.

[Q] Playboy: Both Stephanie and Geraldine strongly deny everything you say. In fact, Geraldine has said, "[For Roseanne] to say [she's] an incest victim absolves all [her] acts of the past." What acts?

[A] Roseanne: She means my firing her as my manager. I thought she was there for me because she was my sister. But I think now she was there for a payoff, and obviously that's true. My sister and I were very close, as close as two sisters can be. I supported her for ten years. It's over now. She has to get a job, do some work.

[Q] Playboy: Were you an enabler?

[A] Roseanne: Absolutely. We'd sit there together and smoke five packs of cigarettes each. We mostly talked about our childhood and tried to make some sense of it. But both of us had extremely blank memories. And now she talks about me like I was her girlfriend who dumped her. I read one of her quotes that said, "Roseanne made a decision to become Mrs. Tom Arnold, and I was no longer necessary." That sounds like a spurned lover. It's always been a very sick family. It was a sick, sick family from the day I was born. And it still is.

[Q] Playboy: How long has it been since you've spoken to them?

[A] Roseanne: Three years.

[A] Playboy: In denying these charges, your family pretty much blames Tom for your estrangement.

[A] Tom: Hey, I tried with them. I was so nice to her parents, her sisters and her brother. I went way out on a limb, trying to develop relationships with them. I said they were great. But they kept doing things that were unforgivable.

[Q] Playboy: Did you push them apart?

[A] Tom: It had to be Rosie's decision, particularly to end the business relationship with her sister Geraldine. I was in favor of it, but I never pressured either way. It was Rosie's decision for me to be her manager and the executive producer of Roseanne.

[A] Playboy: Some people claim you took an enfeebled star and brainwashed her.

[A] Tom: I didn't brainwash her. I put a blanket of protection around her that she had never had before. I was totally devoted and still am. That's the way marriages are in Iowa: It's you and your wife and your family, and that's it. I insisted she get in recovery and remain in recovery, do the work, not waiver and not backslide. I was on her ass. As she was on mine to get sober.

[A] Roseanne: When I first started to have therapy and recall my memories, I really couldn't handle anything. It came so fast and so furious. I couldn't even walk.

[A] Tom: When I was on drugs, I'd still get up at six to get the kids up for school, make sure they had breakfast, get them going. I knew I had to do it.

[A] Roseanne: He always came home every night.

[A] Tom: I never went to bars.

[A] Roseanne: He sat in his bathroom and closet and snorted cocaine.

[A] Tom: Yeah, and in my car on the way home.

[Q] Playboy: Why did you trust him?

[A] Roseanne: At that point, I didn't have a choice. But if he hadn't been there I would be dead, because I couldn't function in any fucking way at all. Also, he was right often enough for me to go, "Fuck, he knows what he is talking about." We both have alcoholic personalities, and neither of us trusts anybody.

[Q] Playboy: Roseanne, were you ever suicidal?

[A] Roseanne: Me? Yeah, like every second. I felt really bad. I had to go on anti de-pressants. That's when I started to get back to being OK. It really did save my life. I'm one of those success stories with Prozac. It just made everything bottom out and I could focus. I suppose it was a breakdown. I couldn't remember what day it was or where I was.

[A] Tom: I said, "You're not leaving me here with these fucking kids. There's no way." This is when the kids were battling. Her life was a shit pile waiting to burst. And when it burst, it was the toughest time for me. People had no clue what was going on inside our house. No clue of how devastating it was for her. I was implementing structure in the kids' lives where they'd never had it before, and there was so much resentment against me--which is only natural. And then to deal with my own shit. That's what I was supposed to handle. It was a lot for a newly sober guy.

[Q] Playboy: Did the money and opportunity make it easier for you to marry into this mess?

[A] Tom: Hey, there isn't enough money for a single guy on drugs to say, "Guess what? I'm going to get sober and I'm going to get all this shit." I got into this because I was loved and I loved her, and I wanted a family. I'd take any family, but hers is a great one. And it's turned out to be really rewarding that it was so hard.

[Q] Playboy: Rewarding in many ways: your new sitcom, The Jackie Thomas Show, the job producing Roseanne. You don't deny that there is a professional advantage to being with Roseanne?

[A] Tom: Of course. As far as her opening all the doors in my career is concerned, hell yes. I can do anything I want. Any time I come into a professional arrangement, I carry her weight with me. Everybody knows that.

[A] Playboy: They also think that you've achieved what you have only because you're Roseanne's husband.

[A] Tom: It's true. If I didn't know her I wouldn't be on the show. So? What can I say? It's great to work with your family.

[A] Roseanne: That's not what we live for. We don't plan our lives around our careers, we plan our careers around our lives.

[A] Playboy: At one time, Tom didn't get much respect. Now it seems that he's the hip one.

[A] Roseanne: He'd gotten respect for a long time within our community, even though the public wasn't aware of it. The professionals knew he did the work of ten people. Everybody thought I was crazy for dragging my boyfriend everyplace, until they saw his talent.

[A] Tom: I like to be known as Rosie's husband. That's what I am. But I know people will still resent me. That only makes me quicker and sharper. Having worked in a meat-packing plant, I now feel like I'm doing this for every fucker who used to work with me. I'm going to enjoy it all. I'm not going to feel bad about it.

[Q] Playboy: Would The Jackie Thomas Show work if somebody else played Jackie Thomas?

[A] Roseanne: No. He's the only one who can act that big and that dumb.

[Q] Playboy: Ever since The Jackie Thomas Show debuted, and despite the big ratings, there's been speculation that it would be canceled. Why?

[A] Tom: The show is in no jeopardy of being canceled. We got picked up for more. They aren't going to cancel my show. I mean, then what? I'm going to take it to CBS or NBC. They can't beat my show. The network has assured me the show will be on next season. We're fine.

[Q] Playboy: Let's focus on your relationship. Why is it working?

[A] Tom: Because we work at it real hard. We don't take it for granted.

[A] Roseanne: We were so wild and crazy in our younger years. To be actually intimate and honest with another person is really intense for both of us. Neither of us ever had that with a sexual partner.

[Q] Playboy: Did you really break the furniture the first time you made love?

[A] Roseanne: We were so scared.

[A] Tom: But we just went for it. That was one time we just cleared out our heads. Eight years of "We can't go over that line." We had to propel ourselves violently over that line.

[Q] Playboy: What if the sex had been bad?

[A] Roseanne: It wouldn't have mattered.

[A] Tom: I learned about the mechanics of sex from Rosie. When I grew up, I didn't know that women enjoyed sex. I didn't know what it meant for a woman to come until I was about twenty-five. Somebody got real pissed off at me and said, "What the fuck?" There's so much more going on than just sticking your dick in somebody and humping away. I learned that from Rosie because I took time to relax. There's spiritual stuff involved. And I'm still learning. I have a lot to learn.

[Q] Playboy: Is there a dark side to all this?

[A] Roseanne: We used to really Sid and Nancy out.

[A] Tom: I threw her around a few times. She'd be screaming at me and I'd throw her on the floor.

[A] Roseanne: One time he was in bed watching TV and I got this big baseball and threw it at his head.

[A] Tom: It wasn't just a baseball. It was encased in this acrylic stuff. There used to be nights of terror when she had PMS. She'd be raging. She'd say, "Fuck, that's it!" Then she'd go out in her car. She'd call and hang up on me. There was all this insanity. I'd have to go looking for her. Finally, my therapist said to me, "Don't chase her anymore." So I quit and then she quit doing it. She didn't like it anymore.

[Q] Playboy: Was it love at first sight?

[A] Tom: Yeah, when I look back.

[Q] playboy: What's the first thing you noticed about her?

[A] Tom: She was hilarious. She was tough. We met at a comedy club. I went on first. When she came out, the whole room was mesmerized. I'd never seen anything like it. And offstage she was fun. I could tell that she was sensitive. But what I have always loved about her the most is that I think she always loved me.

[Q] Playboy: Is that true?

[A] Roseanne: Uh-huh.

[A] Tom: And that made me feel great. Roseanne believed in me. She opened all the doors and created all the opportunities for what's happening in my career now--stuff I never knew I had the ability to do. All the years she said, "Tom, you're great," I felt like, Oh, man, she's dreaming. This includes being a good parent and husband, too.

[Q] Playboy: How did you feel about this outpouring of love?

[A] Roseanne: At first I couldn't handle it. I'd been sexual with a lot of people, but not actually intimate. He'd say things and I wouldn't talk to him for six months. I'd just lose it and go, Whoa, take a break. Scared the hell out of me.

[A] Tom: Once in a while we'd get fucked up together and she'd say, "You know, I do have a crush on you and I think you have a crush on me."

[A] Roseanne: The first time that happened was during my first HBO special. Your girlfriend said we had a crush on each other. I got really scared.

[A] Tom: And then you said, "What are we going to do about it?" And I said, "I'll tell you what we're going to do about it: The first time we have this conversation when we're sober, that's when we'll do something about it." I was scared that you were just saying it. I was in love, sober or fucked up. I wanted to know you felt that way, too.

[A] Roseanne: I'd sober up and then I wouldn't talk to him.

[A] Playboy: And you were married, too.

[A] Tom: But this went on even after we were married. I was nice to her and she couldn't handle it. It's because of this incest stuff. But I didn't know that at first. She wondered, "Why are you on my side? Why would you be on my side?"

[A] Roseanne: It didn't make sense. I'd go, "What is he after?" Intimacy means pain and betrayal and getting fucked over.

[A] Tom: To me, that meant she didn't love me. Now I know she loves me, but I used to take it personally. Like, "What do I have to do to prove I love you?" I'd run down the list every time: "Look how good I am with the kids. I worship the ground you walk on."

[Q] Playboy: Did Roseanne have the same suspicions about you that others had?

[A] Tom: Right. And it took me back to my using and drinking times. I did some things that were not honest.

[A] Roseanne: I wanted to feel love for Tom because to me love meant taking care of someone and lying to them. I'd take care of him but I'd keep him away from the real me, and I'd lie to him. That way I could stay in my sick shit but I could still have somebody to love. But him loving me, that was something I never had. I thought he wanted something. I would even lie to him about money.

[A] Tom: She wouldn't pay me. I wrote comedy for a living and she'd say, "I'll pay you in a month." Even when she got out here and had money she'd say, "Here are two checks for four hundred fifty dollars. Cash this one in two weeks, cash the other one in a month." They were supposed to be for fifteen hundred dollars, but she would talk me down. She thought paying me would be crossing the line, that we couldn't be friends. Our working together kept us together. We'd tell her husband and my girlfriends we were going on the road together. They'd go, "Oh, that's cool." That way Rosie got out and we got to see each other.

[Q] Playboy: Did anyone suspect?

[A] Roseanne: We never had sex or anything.

[A] Tom: We'd just go on the road, drink, sleep in the same bed. We could do that because we were writing and performing together.

[A] Roseanne: We were just the best buddies.

[A] Playboy: And now you sound like old marrieds.

[A] Tom: We're basically old-fashioned.

[Q] Playboy: Are you jealous?

[A] Roseanne: Yeah. Well, I'm protective.

[A] Tom: I don't want to give her any reason to be jealous, either, because thatputs her in a scary place. However, we have certain friends--her girlfriends--who she's not jealous of.

[A] Roseanne: My girlfriends all gave Tom pictures of them naked from the waist up for Christmas. I framed them for him. I think they're funny.

[A] Tom: She took the pictures.

[A] Roseanne: He always talks about women's boobs. So I had my girlfriends pin him in a chair, pull up their shirts and rub their boobs all over him.

[A] Tom: And you haven't heard me talk about them since, have you? No.

[A] Roseanne: Other women better not try anything with you because I'll mess them up really bad. I'm a working-class woman. I'm not one of those dainty types who doesn't know how to fight.

[A] Tom: She's not a very good fighter, though. She's tough. She has hit me. When she's mad she's a killer, but I don't want her out there fighting. I don't let men talk to her on the phone. I don't give a shit that they're her old comedy friends. I couldn't care less. I'll talk to them first and then we'll talk to them together at a club.

[A] Roseanne: He doesn't let me call up any of my guy friends I used to party with.

[A] Tom: Absolutely not. You can see them at a club or invite them over to dinner. I'd love to have them over.

[Q] Playboy: You can't see them alone?

[A] Roseanne: We met Jesse Jackson at Farm Aid. He said he would really love to sit down and talk over lunch. I was really excited. Tom said I couldn't have lunch with him unless I brought him to our house. I said, "You're being ridiculous." Tom said, "If you do, I'll show up and kick his black ass."

[A] Tom: I meant it.

[Q] Playboy: Care to explain?

[A] Tom: I don't allow my woman to go to lunch with other men.

[A] Roseanne: Tom doesn't allow his wife to do any of that.

[A] Tom: With any man. I wouldn't care if it was the Pope, gay guys, anybody. Doesn't matter. It's inappropriate. I don't know Jesse Jackson. I like him as a man, I like his politics. But I'm not going to let any man, even my rabbi, who's asked, have lunch with my wife. I don't believe in it.

[Q] Playboy: Don't you trust Roseanne?

[A] Tom: I know nothing would happen, but you don't put yourself in slippery situations where something could happen, even if it's not going to happen. If he's gay, I figure she could change him. If he's a rabbi, well, rabbis date. Jesse Jackson, he's a man. I don't approve of it.

[Q] Playboy: You're serious?

[A] Tom: I'm a hundred percent serious.

[Q] Playboy: Why do you say "black" ass?

[A] Tom: I don't mean to sound racist. I'm not. I'd kick his Jewish ass or his fat ass or whatever kind of ass he has. I would kick it. I just wanted her to know what would happen if she had lunch with him.

[A] Playboy: Good thing she's not having lunch with Sammy Davis Jr.

[A] Tom: I'd kick his dead, black, Jewish ass. Look, in Iowa married women just don't have lunch with men.

[A] Playboy: You're not in Iowa anymore.

[A] Tom: I know. I'll get better.

[Q] Playboy: Roseanne, isn't your acquiescence to Tom on this subject contrary to your strong-woman image?

[A] Roseanne: I think about that a lot. Everything I say must be bullshit if he doesn't let me out the door.

[A] Tom: She's told me she's glad I'm like that. I'm very passionate about it, even though when I hear myself saying it I go, Boy, that sounds sort of old-fashioned.

[A] Roseanne: In other words, we're so traditional that it's radical. Our primary commitment is to each other and to our marriage. I guess you can still be a feminist and do that.

[Q] Playboy: Are you trying to build trust or is this rampant insecurity speaking?

[A] Tom: Probably both.

[A] Roseanne: See, we know each other.

[A] Tom: This has been the first relationship in which we've been honest, and I want it to continue. I feel she needs to be taken care of sometimes. Maybe she won't in a year.

[Q] Playboy: How about something more pleasant? What sexual fantasy is still unfulfilled?

[A] Roseanne: Mine is that Tom cooks pork and doesn't burn it. [To Tom] Do you have a weird sexual fantasy?

[A] Tom: Well, I feel I'm not very free at home. I know the kids and the nanny are there. I think I could act out more if we went away and were by ourselves in a safe place. Then we could be naked, which I like. My fantasy revolves around Rosie performing different sex acts on me--blow jobs, etc.--without me having to do anything. But in the end you like to reciprocate.

[Q] Playboy: These days you're referred to as one entity: Tom and Roseanne. Any desire to have separate identities again?

[A] Tom: We love doing what we do and we'll always be together.

[Q] Playboy: You reportedly bristle when someone calls you Roseanne Barr. What does that make you want to do?

[A] Roseanne: Beat the holy fucking shit out of 'em, kick 'em in the nuts or cunt, rip their fucking hair out, throw 'em down a flight of stairs, jump up and down on 'em, tie a rope around their neck and drag 'em down the street, set 'em on fire, throw 'em through a plate-glass window, hit 'em in the fucking head with an ax.

[A] Tom: And force them to marry her ex-husband.

[Q] Playboy: At first, your marriage was the butt of jokes. When do you think that perception changed?

[A] Roseanne: As soon as my ex-husband and sister stopped talking to the press. When we had the gag order.

[A] Tom: It also helped when people saw me perform. When I started doing HBO specials and Roseanne started getting better as I was producing it, and I got my own show and some movies. Seeing my work added credibility to Rosie's always saying that I was very talented.

[A] Roseanne: I think it's when them two shut up.

[Q] Playboy: What if everything in your life and work were calm?

[A] Roseanne: I wouldn't do confrontational comedy, I'd do something different. But I'd always be creative.

[A] Tom: But the world would have to be hunky-dory.

[A] Roseanne: I'd probably write children's books or some shit.

[A] Tom: Children's books?

[A] Roseanne: Shut up. I am kind of a crusader. I'm sort of a crazy Don Quixote type. [Tom looks askance.] I am.

[A] Tom: Nobody's arguing with you.

[A] Roseanne: Maybe this is also born of controversy, and I'm going to do it anyway: I would work on issues of child abuse and legislation. That's what we want to do with the rest of our lives. I will always be a confrontational person. This is so fucking clicéd, but what burns inside me more than anything is that I have something to say.

[Q] Playboy: You two are trying to have kids, right?

[A] Both:[Smiling] Yeah.

[Q] Playboy: How many kids do you want?

[A] Tom: I would like to have four or five, but she says one. And maybe we'll adopt one, too. The biological part is not my main thing. I'm happy being a stepparent, but I would like to be the main guy one way or another. I've never seen men change so much as they do when they become fathers.

[Q] Playboy: Any plans for the future?

[A] Tom: We want to be movie stars.

[A] Roseanne: I'd like to win an Oscar.

[Q] Playboy: Despite your successes, do you still feel like outsiders?

[A] Roseanne: Well, I still feel like a geek from outer space. To everyone and everything.

[A] Tom: You are!

[A] Roseanne: That's what I said. Why are you arguing with me?

[A] Tom: I'm not arguing about that.

[A] Roseanne: Idiot.

[A] Tom: I'm not arguing that you're not a geek.

[A] Roseanne: I feel like a geek from outer space.

[A] Tom: Then you're in touch. Enjoy it.

[Q] Playboy: Roseanne, you said that you have been on Prozac, the antidepressant drug, for more than a year. Is it still helping?

[A] Roseanne: I'm more satisfied with the world since I've been on antidepressants. I think that everything you do in--and the way you look at--the world comes from how you feel about yourself. I still have the old fire. I just don't have the horrible lows. Well, I kind of have the horrible lows, but not as frequently. Now I freak out only every other day. I'm able to run my personal life a lot better. I could always work but I didn't have a happy personal life and didn't know how to get it. Once, I didn't even know how to live in the world. Now I'm doing pretty good.

[Q] Playboy: Are the two of you doing Prozac together?

[A] Roseanne: He should be. But it won't work for him.

[A] Tom: Somebody has to drive the car.

[A] Roseanne: That's what Timothy Leary told him. He totally understands what Tom's trip is: He's driving the car. Driving me around in the car. Go away. You're ruining the interview. I would answer differently if you weren't here with your goofy fucking head and your goofy fucking face. Zit face.

[A] Tom: Look at you. [Pinches her]

[A] Roseanne: Owww!

[A] Tom: Owww!

[A] Roseanne: Ohhhhh!

[A] Tom: Ahhhhh! [They stop.]

[A] Roseanne: Damn it.

[A] Both: [Laugh]

Roseanne: "I still have secrets I haven't told anyone." Tom: "No, you don't. You used them up on 'Donahue' and 'Sally Jessy Raphaël.'"

Roseanne: "My whole career is guided by God, so that's why I don't have to answer to any earthly shit."

Tom: "When I was on drugs, I'd still get up at six to get the kids up for school. I knew had to do it."

Roseanne: "I had my girlfriends pin him in a chair, pull up their shirts and rub their boobs all over him."

Roseanne: "I still feel like a greek from outer space. To everyone and everything." Tom: "You are!"