Cheating Hearts

Marriage. It's not what it used to be--actually, it never was. You can gussy up holymatrimony all you want, but isn't it a lot simpler to speak the unspoken--namely, that for many people, having sex with the same person night after night, decade beyond decade, wears thin? Last year, a writer named Dalma Heyn tried to put a new spin on the issue when she stepped forward with The Erotic Silence of the American Wife, a chic manifesto celebrating female infidelity. What happened next was predictable: Women gobbled it up, men cried foul and the trench between the sexes only got deeper. Business as usual.

Someone had to get to the bottom of all this. That's when I called Playboy for an assignment. What does a single woman like me know about spouses who stray? Plenty. For as long as I can remember, I've been a magnet for married men. If there's one hitched guy in a roomful of availables, hands down, he'll be the one shimmying up to me with an opening line. I once asked a male friend about this phenomenon and he summed it up pretty neatly: "Married men have nothing to lose," he said. "Think about it: If you say no to these guys"--which, for the record, I generally do--"they still get to go home to their wives. It's the single guys who risk rejection."

I wasn't completely satisfied with that answer, mainly because I wanted to know how much a married man had to lose if the woman actually said yes. So I asked a few of the guys who'd cornered me in the past--or, at the very least, confided their infidelities--to lay their cards on the table: Why and how do you cheat on your wives? With the promise made that I would protect their identities, here's what five of these men had to tell me.

•

Name: Larry

Age: 53

Occupation: Restaurateur

Married: Five years (second marriage)

Children: Two

[Q] How long have you been married?

[A] About five years.

[Q] Within this marriage, have you had affairs?

[A] No.

[Q] What about during your first marriage?

[A] Oh, yeah.

[Q] How long were you married to that wife?

[A] For 13 years.

[Q] Why haven't you had affairs in this marriage? Has something changed?

[A] I'm comfortable and satisfied with the person I'm with. She fulfills all of my needs.

[Q] Were any of those affairs during your first marriage with the same woman?

[A] Occasionally. I made it a point never to let them go a long time--otherwise, they might go on for years. But they all turned out to be friends, so we had an honest, aboveboard relationship. I never wanted anyone to take it beyond fun and games.

[Q] Would these women become attached?

[A] I'm sure some did, but you have to maintain a superficial attitude about the whole thing. "Let's have a good time, let's laugh, let's do some things that maybe you wouldn't do under other circumstances. Let's close the door behind us and enjoy the moment."

[Q] It sounds good, but it's hard to believe that women would actually go along with that.

I'm sure that some women were madly in love with me, but I never led anybody to believe it was anything more than what it was. In doing that, I didn't create any problems--other than the fact that whoever came after usually didn't quite meet my standards. [Laughs]

[Q] And none of these women would call you at the office or try to find you at home?

[A] Not really.

[Q] Where would you go to have sex?

[A] Motels.

[Q] A regular place?

[A] Whatever was convenient.

[Q] So we're not talking dating.

[A] Oh, God, no.

[Q] No dating, no flowers?

[A] No nothing.

[Q] Who is the perfect woman for an affair?

[A] Probably a gal who has responsibilities--a husband, children. Someone who has as much to lose as you do. Someone who would say, "Yes, this moment was very nice, very exciting--but, in the meantime, I have to go back to work and pick up my kid after school. My husband will be home at eight." That's the reality of it. When you walk out and the sun hits you in the face, you have to set that aside as a special moment and nothing more.

[Q] Who is the worst risk for an affair?

[A] A single gal with no responsibilities.

[Q] How is a girlfriend different from a wife?

[A] A wife has many motherly features. You don't ask a mother to put on high heels and stockings and all the little accessories that you use when you're playing games. For some reason, we marry that kind of woman, but then we don't allow our women to be the people we really want them to be.

[Q] What do you mean?

[A] You can't tell your wife to dress up like a cheerleader or light candles, then go back to paying the bills and pretend it never happened.

[Q] Is that your situation now?

[A] No. I can fulfill all my fantasies within my relationship now.

[Q] Let's back up: Why do men cheat?

[A] It's the old story about the male re-proving himself, updating his masculinity. I think that's true for both young and older men. We're fragile by nature, and this is just one way we "up" ourselves. There's much more to it than just sex. There's a whole psychological aspect to it that I never cared to look at. [Laughs] I was always strictly superficial: If it feels good, do it.

[Q] Did you ever feel any guilt?

[A] You know something? I never did.

[Q] Why not?

[A] I was aboveboard. I never told people I was something I wasn't. Of course, if I look back on it now, certainly it was a terrible thing I did to my wife--a breach.

You said you haven't had an affair in the past five years. But I've known you for a couple of years, and you actually approached me in that time.

Well, no. I talked to you.

[Q] Came on to me. What if I had said yes?

[A] I don't know what I would have done. Probably backed off. Maybe that's still part of the old male thing. I wanted to see what you'd say.

[Q] How often do you play this game?

[A] I don't know. I think women are attracted to me, so it's like getting stroked. It's the hunting, the capturing of the female. Again, males have to re-prove themselves, knock things down, beat people up. The best thing we can do is get laid. It's a hormonal thing. Certain men have higher testosterone levels than others.

[Q] What are the rules for a successful affair?

[A] Be as open and honest about it as possible, and don't make it anything that it isn't. Don't create hang-ups for yourself or anybody else. Keep things as superficial as possible. And no "I love you, I miss you."

[Q] What if she's saying those things?

[A] Then you have to refute them or walk away from her. You just do. That's it.

[Q] How are men different lovers outside their marriages than in them?

[A] Even if a guy is a good lover outside the marriage, most are bad or selfish lovers at home. They don't want to take the time to satisfy the other person or create an atmosphere. They don't have to prove themselves anymore. But in an affair, all of a sudden you think you're so great with this lover. You go out of your way to satisfy her, to prove that you're a man. You give her that extra time, you make that extra effort. And, ultimately, that makes what is at home not look very good anymore.

[Q] During your 13-year marriage, how many girls would you say there were?

[A] I couldn't begin to tell you. There were times when I would have seven or eight, nine or ten numbers available.

[Q] Were you ever concerned you would get caught, or that it would somehow get back to your wife?

[A] There's always a concern, so you try to be careful. Remember, you're sneaking around, so sneak well. Don't think of it as a date or you'll be mistaken.

[Q] And you never got caught?

[A] No.

[Q] Maybe she had a clue but never asked you about it.

[A] Maybe she didn't want to know.

[Q] A lot of men say that.

[A] But, ultimately, what are the wives going to do about it? They're not really ready to up-and-out. Maybe this is the best they have. Maybe he's got this flaw that God gave him, so they think: He'll grow out of it. In the meantime, he treats her well, pays the bills, is nice to the kids. So why should she start up?

[Q] How would you feel if you learned your wife was having an affair?

[A] Not well at all. There are definitely two standards.

[Q] What would you do?

[A] I don't know. I wouldn't be able to think about it, I suppose.

[Q] Would you stay with her?

[A] Yeah.

[Q] But you'd rather just not know about it.

[A] Yeah. I wouldn't want to know.

[Q] Let's get back to this testosterone thing for a minute. Explain that.

[A] Some men have a greater sex drive--either psychologically or physically--so they have an emotional need for this. They have to perform and be stimulated on a regular basis, and maybe one woman just won't do the trick. I was always for polygamy. A man should have as many wives as he (continued on page 76) Cheating Hearts(continued from page 68) can afford.

[Q] And a woman?

[A] A woman is equal.

[Q] Except for your wife.

[A] Except for my wife. [Motions to tape recorder] Turn that thing off.

[Q] Do you want this off the record?

[A] No, I just don't want this linked to my voice.

[Q] [The tape recorder is turned off. I make mental notes of the following exchange, then transcribe them onto cocktail napkins directly afterward.]

[A] Here I am, 53 years old. I just told you I haven't cheated on my current wife. But I have to tell you, I've had this fantasy that I'd come up here, forget the interview and go down on you.

[Q] Really?

[A] I guess that's as reformed as an alcoholic gets.

[Q] What if I said yes?

[A] I might be tempted. Maybe it's locked inside my mind. Every time I see you, it reinforces it. I'll leave the offer open.

[Q] I thought you said you were done having affairs.

[A] It would just be a physical encounter, not an affair.

[Q] What's the difference?

[A] You can rationalize it if it's not a complete sexual encounter.

[Q] What is a complete sexual encounter?

[A] Intercourse.

[Q] So you wouldn't have any guilt as long as we didn't have intercourse?

[A] I'd probably have guilt now because I'm very much in love with my wife. But I'd get over it.

•

Name: Peter

Age: 42

Occupation: Criminal psychologist

Married: 11 years (second marriage)

Children: Two

[Q] Are women initially reluctant to become involved with a married man?

[A] Yes, and a lot of guys realize that. In order to enable the relationship, they constantly have to apply some sort of emotional salve to the mistress so that she's able to live with herself. They'll come up with schemes like, "Oh, God, I have to go home to my wife. I wish I didn't have to sleep with her"--or constantly complain about the wife--so the mistress begins to feel like she's doing some sort of service. She's rescuing this poor guy from this horrible wife. But I'll bet you nine out often of these guys go home with roses for their wives. They kiss their wives' butts from the time they get home and hug them in bed and tell them how much they love them.

[Q] Is that what you do?

[A] I used to when I first started. But then it struck me--and I know this sounds hypocritical--that I was being dishonest.

[Q] So you just leveled with your mistress and told her that you were still having sex with your wife?

[A] Right.

[Q] And that worked?

[A] Well, I discovered that that approach could be just as powerful a tool because it attracted the kind of woman who appreciated honesty and forthrightness. Consequently, it kind of upped the quality of the extramarital partner. It eliminated heavily dysfunctional women who were into rescue syndromes and trying to become emotionally attached. If you're rational and upfront--"I sleep with my wife, I love my wife, I will not leave my wife"--you're hedging your bets that you won't get involved with someone who will pull a Fatal Attraction on you. This has to be a pretty rock-solid gal who is into it just for the sex and the quick emotional boost.

But on the other hand, this game is Russian roulette. It's exhilarating when the hammer goes click and there's no bullet in there--that heightens the sexuality. But you never know when there's going to be a loaded slug in the chamber--and that loaded slug is falling in love. If you get hit by that, all this stuff is worthless.

[Q] Have you ever fallen in love with a woman you were having an affair with?

[A] Yeah. That was the first one.

[Q] How long were you with her?

[A] Off and on, for a couple years.

[Q] How did you meet her?

[A] At an AA meeting.

[Q] How did it begin?

[A] I asked her to lunch.

[Q] Did you know when you asked her to lunch that you weren't just asking her to lunch?

[A] That was my hope.

[Q] Did she know you were married?

[A] Yes.

[Q] And that wasn't a problem?

[A] Apparently not.

[Q] Did you have to convince this woman?

[A] Only with a kiss.

[Q] So, the first kiss--and that was it?

[A] According to her.

[Q] How did it progress from there?

[A] After taking her to lunch and kissing briefly in the park, I took her to dinner. I wanted to treat her just like a date. I didn't know how to do this. Mistress. That word was mysterious to me. Afterward, I suggested we go back to her place, and she was all embarrassed. She said, "Oh, no. I can't do that." She had a roommate and was apparently concerned about that. Well, I immediately thought: She doesn't want anything to do with me. What a wasted evening this is going to be.

[Q] Was it?

[A] Hardly. She said, "Instead of going to my place, I know this church parking lot we can go to right on the lake." When we got there, I promptly parked my car right under the rectory window and she proceeded to give me oral sex in the car. Of course, this was absolutely the most phenomenal thing that had happened to me since I'd been married. It was like every man's fantasy. A girl you take out insists on parking in the priest's lot and doing this as joggers go by in cashmere sweaters.

So, for me, that began what probably was as much a love affair as it was a sexual obsession. Over the next three or four encounters, she insisted we go to different church parking lots. We had a tremendous tour of metropolitan churches, and the same thing happened at every one. It was the essence of taboo. Not only was it an affair, it had the spirituality of these church parking lots, too. I was hopelessly hooked after that.

[Q] How did you keep this from your wife?

[A] A good lie has to be based in truth, so that 90 percent of the lie is indeed truth. The key to lying and covering your tracks is being in all the places you said you were. For instance, if you want to spend the evening with your mistress, you want to tell your wife you were out seeing a client. But the most important thing you need to do is to see that client and then go see your mistress. Don't try to do it without seeing the client, because when it comes to looking your wife in the eye, you have to have all the background, the color, the details.

[Q] You once told me that you'll even continue to play out the lie for months.

[A] Right. To get away one Sunday evening with this particular gal, I said I was going to meet with a friend who was in a crisis and needed some help. In this case, I didn't really do that, but I continue to talk to my wife about that meeting today. I'll say, "The last time I talked to Joe was the night he had that (continued on page 142) Cheating Hearts(continued from page 76) problem. I haven't seen him since." I'll continue to talk about it to give it a sense of continuity. Repetition, continuity and detail.

[Q] Tell me about your answering machine.

[A] What's the worst possible thing that could happen with your answering machine? Your wife could be in your office and see the light blinking, and just out of curiosity press play to see who is leaving you messages--especially if she's suspicious. Then you're caught. So attention to detail means being willing to do things like taking your answering machine apart and putting black tape over the little red light.

[Q] What about lipstick and perfume?

[A] Not allowed. Most women who have ever been with a married man know not to do it. But if you find yourself in that situation you have to go to great lengths to undo it. You have to buy new shirts, go to laundromats, whatever is necessary. Then again, humans are animals--we can sense one another. And a wife doesn't need to smell perfume to sense another woman. I remember a guy who thought he was miles ahead of the game because his girlfriend didn't wear perfume. His wife divorced him anyway. When she left him, she said, "You come home every night smelling of sex." This is why you have to take a shower and take your own soap with you--the same soap you use at home. If you leave smelling like Lifebuoy and come home smelling like Safeguard, you have a problem. Health clubs are good for this--you can get a shower there on the way home.

But sometimes you feel like you can still smell the girl on you, even if you've taken a shower. Here you've had this intense experience with a woman--and she's in you, you can still feel her presence. So in order to get rid of that, I'll stop at a convenience store and get Slim Jims or smoked sausages, eat them and sometimes even rub them on my cheeks or on my neck so I smell like a salami sausage.

[Q] You also told me that you have occasionally told your wife you were at a strip club.

[A] Yes, because some guilt can often deflect the entire guilt. If you appear to be confessing something, your wife will be satisfied that you confessed to some wrongdoing. In doing that, you hide the greater wrongdoing. So what you do is say, "I wasn't going to tell you, but I went out to a topless place and the girl did a lap dance and, God, I know I'm stupid, but I paid 50 bucks to have her do this." But because you didn't have sex with the stripper, this allows your wife to vent her anger, even while she's thinking, Yeah, but it could be worse, he could be sleeping with somebody--when in fact that's exactly what you were doing. So always confess a little bit to get out of a big jam.

[Q] You were able to maintain that first extramarital relationship for a long time. Did you have to convince your mistress to stay?

[A] I didn't have to convince her, but she eventually tired of it.

[Q] Why?

[A] I don't know.

[Q] What did she tell you?

[A] I think her Catholicism finally got the better of her.

[Q] This was emotionally devastating for you?

[A] Yes.

[Q] Tell me why.

[A] Because I had the best of both worlds--number one and number two. I really cared for this woman. But even though I was willing to leave my wife for her, that meant nothing to her. She told me that one of the reasons she got involved with me was because I was safe, but suddenly I became unsafe when I fell in love with her. So I was caught between a rock and a hard place: I couldn't leave my wife because then I became unsafe to the mistress, and, at the same time, the mistress was struggling with intense guilt over the relationship. I had lost control. I had gone from ultimate control--a wife and a mistress--to having absolutely no control and being at the whim of my own emotions.

[Q] You actually told your wife.

[A] Right.

[Q] How come?

[A] Stupidity. Absolute stupidity--and probably for selfish reasons. My pain was so great that I wanted to share it with the person who had been so supportive for all those years. But ultimately it was a selfish act because it did nothing but cause pain for her. If I could do it all over again, I would have found a way to work it out myself. I would have gone to therapy and not subjected her to that.

[Q] But the two of you are still together. Was that questionable for a period of time?

[A] Yeah. She was going to leave me because I couldn't make up my mind.

[Q] But eventually it worked out.

[A] Right. In fact, we were just saying the other night how great it is that we withstood this. We're watching a lot of our friends go through troubles, and we're so glad we're still together, that we got through this.

[Q] But you're still out there looking.

[A] Yeah. [Laughs]

[Q] Since that first affair, have you had others?

[A] Yes. One-night stands.

[Q] Would you allow yourself to become that emotionally involved again?

[A] I hope not, but there's always that loaded bullet. You never know when one's going to come around in the chamber. That's the danger of this.

[Q] A lot of single guys out there are complaining that they can't get laid, yet all you married men seem to be having a great time. What's wrong with this picture?

[A] We're not hungry. We don't appear so rabid, so eager to please. A certain emotional stability comes with being married and women find that attractive. Also--and this is key--married men know how to be intimate. They've already been intimate with a woman. I'm not talking physically, I'm talking emotionally and mentally. Married men have a sense of vulnerability and abandon. They're not so worried about what they say and how they act. They know how to talk about intimate things without being embarrassed by them--there's a certain confidence there.

[Q] Are there things a girlfriend can do for you that a wife can't?

[A] A girlfriend doesn't have the familiarity of repetition, so every lovemaking session is a discovery. My father used to say that a woman sells mystery and I really believe it. What is this woman like naked? What is she like in bed? What does she feel like inside?

[Q] Are there things that you'd ask a girlfriend to do sexually that you would not ask a wife?

[A] No, but I think there often are things a girlfriend is more willing to do sexually than a wife is.

[Q] Like what?

[A] Oral sex.

[Q] Really?

[A] Yes. In fact, I've heard prostitutes say if wives gave oral sex, they'd be out of business. And every married man I've talked to said the blow jobs stopped on the wedding night. That was it. You never got another one. It's the oddest thing in the world. Now contrast that with the church parking lot.

Also, what I liked about my girlfriend is that she would spend an hour just stroking my hair, for example. She'd take the time to show attention to me physically, and I in turn wanted to do that to her. My wife doesn't do that. If wives could only realize the little things they can do to keep their husbands from wandering. I think that's why we wander. We want those little rituals back--the ones we had early on that slowly disappeared.

[Q] Do you have any regrets? Do you wish, for example, that you didn't feel compelled to go outside your marriage?

[A] Oh yeah, I absolutely wish that I was so satisfied with my wife that I would never even think of anyone else.

[Q] So is all this her fault?

[A] No, it's not her fault. It has nothing to do with her and everything to do with me. It's a horrible thing to live with, but I suppose I suffer from the "I want it all" syndrome: I want the most beautiful woman in the world, who is young, buxom and a sex fiend in bed. It boils down to a control issue. Having an affair is the realization of fantasy, but it is only a fantasy. It's dangerous if you look at it as anything more than that. Once you get some time away from that mistress--maybe see her two or three years later--you say to yourself, "I almost threw my life away for this. I wasn't acting rationally." It's a drug, a narcotic.

[Q] What warnings would you give to men who have affairs?

[A] I'd warn them about that section in the brain that reacts to this like cocaine. I'd also warn them about the YETs--that stands for "You're Eligible, Too." You're eligible to fall in love, lose your wife, everything you've worked for simply because of this affair. You're playing with a loaded weapon.

•

Name: Bob

Age: 50

Occupation: Creative director, ad agency

Married: 19 years (second marriage)

Children: Two

[Q] How many affairs have you had?

[A] Are we counting both my marriages? [Laughs] In this whole marriage there have been two real affairs. That doesn't include one-night stands. Sometimes two people sharing sex with each other doesn't become an affair.

[Q] Then let's put it this way: During this marriage, how many people have you had sex with other than your wife?

[A] Probably a dozen. It's terrible--I don't keep track. There was a time when I could tell you exactly how many, but not anymore. I think a dozen is right. Maybe more--I don't think it was less.

[Q] How recently have you been with someone other than your wife?

[A] Within the past four years.

[Q] Was that one of the one-night stands?

[A] It was an ongoing one-night stand.

[Q] And you don't consider that an affair?

[A] That's correct.

[Q] How did the affair start?

[A] She was at a conference in a nearby city. She telephoned me and invited me to come over to have a drink. The happy hour turned into, not an affair, but a happier hour--a one-night stand that continued....

[Q] How many times?

[A] Four.

[Q] Why did it end?

[A] Our motives were different. I was there to have fun, she was there to find a new husband. I felt I was becoming a kind of vehicle for her to move from one place to another. Well, I didn't want to be a part of that process, not in any way, shape or form. So I distanced myself. I had to tell her that I liked her--hell, I may have even loved her--but that I had no intention of leaving my wife. None whatsoever.

[Q] Let's talk about sex. Is an affair all about finding someone who's really good in bed?

[A] Not really. I'm suspicious of women who are too good, because I think they're doing it just for me--that they're not getting anything out of it. I have had experiences with high-class prostitutes--they are wonderful in bed, but you know it's because you're paying them $400. If a woman says to me, "Oh, you're this" and "Oh, you're that," it's great for my ego but I have to wonder why she's saying this to me. What's behind it for her?

[Q] Maybe it's just great sex.

[A] Maybe. But I think sex is only that great when you're from 18 to 25. Once you get beyond that age, it's still good, but you never get that same rush that you once did. You've been there before, done it, there's nothing new. At this point, I don't think there's anything that anybody can do that I haven't done before--in any position. Whether the person you're with is whipping you with a riding crop, or you're doing the whipping yourself, it's like, "Show me something new." Inevitably it goes from the sensation of, "God, I've never done this before, this is a trip," to developing these warm, positive feelings for the other person. That's what it's all about.

[Q] What do you get from an affair that you don't get at home?

[A] That's hard to explain. My wife's religious background makes it difficult for her to experience sex fully in a lot of ways. Consequently, my most positive affairs have been ones with no boundaries, no rules, no limits. Like if someone wanted to perform oral sex on me and didn't expect me to do it back to her. Where she would say, "Oh, I'm in the mood for this tonight. You don't have to do anything, I'm just going to do this for you." In a marriage, there's almost always some kind of exchange going on. The difference between being a husband and being a lover is that being a lover is much easier and less encumbered with restrictions and rules.

[Q] Basically, a lover doesn't expect as much from you as a wife does.

[A] Exactly. And not only that, she can be crazier. My wife is an extremely rational individual and, on occasion, the other women I've been with have been wacko--and I like that. Not like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction, but sometimes ditzy, frothy. You're never going to have a heavy conversation with them. With them it's all whipped cream, an illusion.

[Q] Sounds like you're actually looking for an escape.

[A] Yeah, from the real world. I don't want there to be anything real. It's all fantasy, pure escapism.

[Q] Do you have safe sex with these women?

[A] Within the past six years, absolutely. Prior to that I was a little less careful. But now I'm extremely careful.

[Q] What's safe sex to you?

[A] Condoms.

[Q] And that's OK with the women?

[A] Yeah. And they bring them--all different colors. Putting condoms on is part of foreplay and it's fun. Only teenagers don't know how to use condoms. It's funny to listen to teenagers say condoms cut down on the sensation. It's like, "You turkey. You only get three pushes, anyway. Cut down on the sensation and you might actually go a little longer."

[Q] Tell me why a woman would want to have an affair with you.

[A] Because I know what I'm doing physically. But I think it's more than that. What women have liked about me is that I've understood them in a way that most men don't. That's a gift. The other advantage is that we're not going to get involved with each other.

[Q] And you think a lot of women don't want to get involved?

[A] You bet. They're just like me. They have someone at home they don't really want to leave. They like their lives.

[Q] It's been four years since you've had sex with someone other than your wife. Why?

[A] It just hasn't worked out. When you say sex, I haven't had physical sex. There's been a certain amount of heavy petting within the past year, but that was with people who were younger than I am. I suspect I was old enough to be their father, so there was a certain appeal to them. They're sort of experimenting. They want to do something to break the rules, and being with me is certainly breaking enough rules. That alone is a high for them. It's pure adolescent lust.

[Q] How old are these girls?

[A] Old enough to consent. If they're too young I can't deal with them because their bodies are too perfect. I can't deal with that hard-body stuff. I'm too old. I like women who have more droop to them. Women who dance around with their breasts all perky and standing out I think of as children and I can't get it up. It's too scary. [Laughs]

[Q] Why did you start having affairs?

[A] Because I was young and stupid. And because, even though my wife says she wants every part of me, there are parts she really doesn't want.

[Q] Like what?

[A] She gets really uptight about being tied up, for example. That just doesn't go with her. So if I want to play that game, I have to find someplace else to play it--or just decide I'm going to give this up. And, in that case, I'm going to be angry at her for the rest of my life because I gave up something that I want. She keeps saying, "Take that crap out of here"--so I do. I view having affairs as removing objectionable crap from the marriage. So, to me, what we're talking about is being true to ourselves and taking a part of us that is important to a place where it can be safely acted out without harm. Having discharged that energy, you can feel safe and happy, and that's what it's all about.

[Q] What else do you get from these young girls that you don't get at home?

[A] Oral sex.

[Q] Your wife won't do that with you?

[A] No.

[Q] Why not?

[A] She doesn't like it. And if she is going to do it, she has to get herself mentally prepared. But these young women have a different way of approaching the world, and it's just great. They'll say, "I really don't want you to touch me or anything, but would you mind if I just did this?" And the fact that it's in their cars or my car, in a semipublic place, well, that is all fantasy stuff.

See, most of the time I live my life in this little fenced-in yard where everything is neat and perfect. And every now and then I have to get outside that yard.

[Q] Tell me about the older woman you were involved with.

[A] I took in some film to be developed and this woman came out and took it from me. She was a knockout. When she took the film she asked if I wanted her to "push it." I looked at her and said, "What?" She said, "Would you like me to bump it twice?" I said, "Sure" and laughed. That's how it started.

[Q] Was she sexy?

[A] Absolutely. She'd do anything I wanted. She was like a man. She would initiate sex, she'd do it in any position. Her former husbands used to call her a whore, they hated her for it. But that's exactly what I liked her for. I also used to cook dinner for her. She'd come home from work, I'd be there and dinner would be ready. To her, that was somebody taking care of her and that's what she wanted. Because she was a little older than me, I realized that it's not how incredibly attractive someone is, it's more about what they're really like and how they react to you. There were parts of me that she understood that no one in my life had ever understood.

[Q] How do you get away with cheating?

[A] First, you have to be extremely sensitive to your wife. I can always tell when she's getting close to catching on. There is a feeling of the bloodhounds being let go. When you hear them barking in the distance, you have to be able to walk up the river so they can't pick up the scent. So if your attention level is dropping to the point where the other person starts to get the feel of what's going on, then you're not doing it right. Part of the fun is walking the tightrope--without a safety net. One misstep and you're lying flat in the sawdust on the floor.

Also, always be where you say you're going to be. The worst thing is to say, "I'm going to get a haircut," then have her drop in at the office only to be told, "No, we haven't seen him all day." That, or to show up at home without a haircut.

[Q] Does your wife have any idea that you've been unfaithful to her?

[A] She suspects because she knows me.

[Q] Has she questioned you?

[A] Uh-huh.

[Q] And you just deny it?

[A] Uh-huh.

[Q] And she believes you?

[A] She has to. She has no evidence. She'll ask me if I think she's being insecure, and I tell her I don't know because I don't want to lie to her. That's an ugly game, when you say, "Yeah, you're being really insecure."

[Q] You've never lied?

[A] Well, other than when she says, "Are you having an affair?"

[Q] What do you say then?

[A] No.

[Q] And that's not lying?

[A] Well, I can't say yes!

[Q] How do you know when to end an affair?

[A] When you know that there's only one place it can go--and that place is worse. It's like diminishing returns. "Let's quit while it's still going good and not get on the other side of it." Sometimes you have to do this quickly, right at that specific point, or you can get into some pretty negative behaviors as the relationship begins to fall apart.

[Q] Is there anything that would stop you from having affairs?

[A] If she said to me, "Look, I know what's going on and what you're doing is hurting me, so I really wish you'd give these things up--just for me. If you really love me, you'll do it." Then I think I might do it. But she's never said that to me because I don't think she's ready to make that statement. That's a pretty heavy thing to ask somebody.

[Q] Do you think the reason she doesn't ask is because of what you would ask back--namely, to act out your sexual fantasies?

[A] Right. I can understand how she finds them degrading or humiliating, but not everyone looks at them that way. Some people just consider them a game.

[Q] What's the most crucial piece of advice you'd give to a man who was thinking about having an affair?

[A] The worst time to have an affair is when you're angry at your wife. If you're unhappy in your marriage, the affair will never work out well for you because you're approaching it out of anger. If you approach the affair out of love, then you're OK. In other words, the trick is to have the affair when you don't really need it. If you need one, you tend to pick people who aren't good, because what you're really trying to do is blow up the marriage.

[Q] You said you like life on the edge. Why?

[A] I think of myself as conservative. When I invest in stocks I never invest in anything that isn't conventional--Dow Jones industrials. I got out of IBM because they started getting too strange for me, and General Motors because I didn't like their attitude. But in my emotional life, the only way to live is on the edge. I can't see any other way. Life in the middle class is very normal and it's not a place I want to stay 100 percent of the time. If I don't do something on the edge, I feel like I'm dying.

•

Name: Jake

Age: 35

Occupation: Doctor

Married: Seven years

Children: Two

[Q] How many affairs have you had?

[A] In my mind an affair is a repetitive situation where there is emotional involvement. Anything I've ever done has been a one-nighter, and I've had 60 to 70 of those since I've been married.

[Q] All of them were really one-nighters?

[A] Ninety percent of them were one-nighters. The other ten percent were two or three nights. But being with the same person more than two or three times--that's rare.

[Q] Isn't it safe to assume that at least a few of these girls would want to see you more than two or three times?

[A] The more that becomes apparent to me, the more there is no possibility of its happening. Many times they express it verbally, other times it's expressed emotionally--as in the way the sex went.

[Q] Explain that.

[A] There's a difference between making love and fucking. I'd say that, at best, only five to ten percent of my interludes have been making love. Fucking is purely physical--very little lip-kissing. Making love is far more romantic, sensitive. I don't think you ever set out thinking, Well, I'm going to fuck this girl. But for me, the better the sex is, the more I have to stay away.

[Q] Why?

[A] Because I don't want to become attached to anyone other than my wife.

[Q] So you prefer to have affairs where the sex isn't good?

[A] No, I prefer one-night stands where the sex is fabulous. But you have to move on and hope that the next one is just as fabulous. I detest men who have affairs. What I consider an affair is an emotional, intellectual, loving, ongoing relationship with a woman. I think that's wrong. To do something physical outside your marriage, and for the woman to know going in what the score is--that you just want to have a good time and that there's no future in it--is totally different. If my wife had a one-night stand, that's something I could live with. If she had a loving, continuing relationship, I could never deal with it. I assume the same is true for her.

[Q] Do you think she could deal with knowing that you were having one-night stands?

[A] I don't think it would be a nice thing to deal with, but I think she could do it. Primarily because, before we were married, she knew the kind of person I was and I never claimed I could change.

[Q] What kind of person are you?

[A] I'm a dying breed--one of the last true romantics left in America. I don't aspire to be with women for the conquest. I love women, I wouldn't want to live without women, everything that drives me deals with women. For me, the ultimate glory is for a woman to have a fabulous time with me--not necessarily for me to come or to add a notch on the bedpost, but to have that woman think I'm one of the last great lovers. I'm not the best fuck in the free world, but I do believe that few men appreciate women like I do.

[Q] You once told me that pretty women are the worst lovers.

[A] Unfortunately, that has been my experience. More often than not the most beautiful women I've been with have been the dullest lovers. Over and over again, it seems to reinforce itself. Women who are really beautiful know it, and they have men available to them. Nothing is special. They believe men are there simply to please them, and they just lie there in bed like a New York strip. Like, "Aren't I beautiful to look at?" Well, yes, they are, but the less beautiful women--the ones who don't have so many opportunities available to them--are hungry and grateful and eager to please.

[Q] Most single men say they have a hard time getting laid these days. Why is it that a married man has it so easy?

[A] If a man has a problem getting laid today, it's his own fault. If you lack selfconfidence, humor, sensitivity, balls--if you're unable to convey to a woman that you understand her needs--then you're not going to get laid whether you're married or single. Most men probably believe that if they screw a woman as hard as they can for 120 seconds, the woman is going to come. Well, that certainly isn't my experience.

[Q] What is your experience?

[A] That every woman has her own switch--and it's my job to find it. If she doesn't come this way, she'll come that way. All she has to do is give me time to find those switches.

[Q] Where do you meet these women?

[A] Everywhere. In grocery stores, drugstores, airports, hotels, by swimming pools. No rules apply. If you see a woman who interests you, go for it.

[Q] Tell me how you go about it.

[A] It depends on how the woman strikes me. If she seems wild, my approach would be different from one toward someone who appeared laid-back and conservative. I don't believe in having a package of great opening lines. A great line to one woman is perhaps a horrible line with another. It's just intuition.

[Q] When do you let them know you're married?

[A] When I sense we're going to have sex. Make no mistake, I'm not doing this to make friends. Once I sense that the cat's in the bag, then it's critically important to me that they know I'm married. I don't want a Fatal Attraction situation. Besides, it would lose something for me if I had to lie my way into a woman's pants. I want to get them based on who I am and what I am: a married guy with two great kids and a great wife. And when I want to do something on the side, I do. And each time I do, it's just a better reminder to me how much I enjoy sex with my wife.

[Q] If sex with your wife is so good, why do you need it on the side?

[A] Why not? I love women and I see no harm in it, particularly because it's never going to grow into a relationship that could hurt my wife or the woman I'm with that night. The score is known going in. Want to have a few laughs and share a moment? Then let's do it.

[Q] How do you keep everything under wraps?

[A] One of the key rules is: If you're scared, you'll get caught. So getting caught never occurs to me. I'm quick on my feet and I have the confidence that, if I got caught, I could talk my way out of it. My wife has never asked me and I assume it's because she doesn't want to know. Actually, I think she trusts me enough to know that if it did happen, it wouldn't be anything more than a one-night stand. I also think my wife knows she can't keep up with me physically. If I had my druthers, we'd make love in the morning, I'd come home for lunch and we'd do it again at night. I can't just wake up and say, "I won't be horny today." It just doesn't work that way.

[Q] Are there sexual things that a girlfriend or lover can do for you that your wife can't?

[A] No. But that's true with a lot of men I know. They rationalize what they're doing based on, "My wife won't give me a blow job" or "My wife won't do it doggie style." That's not me. I'm not out there doing all these perverted things with women I pick up and then going home and doing it missionary style with my wife. These other men are limited sexually in their marriages. I'm limited in terms of the frequency I would like.

[Q] But didn't you tell me that you have sex every day with your wife?

[A] [Pause] I would say 350 days a year.

[Q] When you're with these women, is it ever a date--or is it just sex?

[A] I never date. That's wrong. No dating, no flowers. The closest I come to that is when I say, "Meet me at such and such bar." But we don't drive there together. I don't show up with a box of chocolates or roses. But before I was married I did.

[Q] But before you were married, it wasn't an affair.

[A] And I don't think it's an affair now.

[Q] Not everyone would agree with you.

[A] That doesn't matter. I'm not looking for approval. Every person has his own moral code. For me, an affair is horribly immoral. Here you have a wife who loves you, yet you're going to put yourself in a position where you could get attached and fall in love--usually at the expense of two people: the girl you're having the affair with and your wife.

[Q] What about the guy's expense?

[A] Fuck the guy, he has it coming. He should end up with neither one.

[Q] Is there a difference between a woman you'd have a one-night stand with and a woman you would marry?

[A] To be honest, it would be hard for me to take seriously as a candidate for marriage someone who went to bed with me the first night. I'm not looking for Mother Teresa, but I'm also not looking to marry the opposite.

[Q] Are you having safe sex with these women?

[A] Six, seven years ago we knew next to nothing about AIDS. So in the beginning it wasn't safe sex. Now it is. Still, in a drunken moment, shit happens. Also, I'm not so sure what safe sex means. Does safe sex mean you can't have oral sex with a woman? If cunnilingus is not safe sex, I don't practice safe sex. If you mean using a rubber, nowadays I try to. But some of that is intuitive, too. If you have a sense that someone isn't out there being wild, maybe you take a shot. I personally detest rubbers--I don't enjoy intercourse with them. But I use them when I have to. I could sit here and say, "Oh, yes, safe sex. I put a Baggie on my tongue." Well, I don't.

[Q] How can you be sure that some of these women aren't out there being wild?

[A] I know this doesn't sound too humble, but I can sense when they're doing something that they haven't done before or, at least, very often. If women have lots of one-night stands, they don't try to hide it. And the ones who do try to hide it are pretty easy to see through. They say, "Oh, I never do this"--then they open their purses and have 50 different kinds of rubbers for you to choose from. There are also times that you can tell a woman's experience physically. There's a certain reserve, a shyness, an undeniable warming-up period, an emotional resistance to what's happening. And then they let loose.

[Q] How do you convince these women that you're worth the shot?

[A] Salesmanship. It's my letting them know that they're not going to be sorry--that they're going to have a great time, not regret it. You're selling a product: The product is you and the commodity is the evening.

[Q] Has a woman ever tried that with you?

[A] If a woman is going overboard coming on to me, I'm tremendously turned off. I like the challenge of selling me to a total stranger. There's that mystique. It's not that I resent it when a woman comes on to me. But if there's not a challenge, then it's not me she wants, it's a dick--and she can get that anywhere. I want them to want me, the whole package.

[Q] Let's talk about telltale signs--lipstick, perfume. How do you cover up those things?

[A] They're never a problem, even with my wife. I'm a very physical guy. I hug my friends. If you're paranoid or scared of those things, that's how you get caught. But if you go home and smell of perfume and your wife says, "What's that?" and you say, with a great deal of confidence, "Hell if I know"--end of discussion. If you say, "Uh, I was going to buy you some and I tried it on myself," that's where the problem starts. I never think or worry about it.

[Q] Are you saying it's not important to shower after sex?

[A] Well, I shower, but not because I'm worried about getting busted, but out of respect for my wife--especially if we're going to make love. But I don't think there's anything I couldn't talk my way out of unless she walked into the room and saw me in bed. And even then I'm not convinced.

[Q] What are some other basic rules of having an affair?

[A] Never leave any physical evidence. Never! You get a gift, into the garbage. You get a card, torch it. Never give out your phone number, and if they find a way to call you at home, immediately tell them never to do it again. I'm unlisted. Also, always pay cash. The smart guy never has to say he was somewhere with a client. There's nothing to explain if you pay with cash. The less of a paper trail you create, the better. Women also love to leave earrings and shit to mark their territory. In essence, they're creating opportunities for a second meeting. So you want to check that room every time she's there.

[A] Finally, deny, deny and deny some more. Don't ever fucking admit to the affair. And you can't feel guilty. Guilt will kill you, and women sense it. If you're going to be with a woman and then not be able to look at your wife for a week or a month, you have a problem. On the other hand, if you can be with this woman, then go home and ravage your wife, you're fine. Everyone I know who got caught probably got caught as a result of his own guilt. He has an affair, he feels guilty and doesn't make love to his wife for a month. Well, of course, she suspects something is wrong. Then the guy gets into a fight with her to help him rationalize his affair. "I have to be with this other woman because things are so bad at home." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Guilt will expose you and ruin you.

[Q] Have you ever become possessive of any of these women?

[A] Never, because the moment you do you're sending a message to them that it's OK for them to be possessive of you. And you would have to be a real asshole to want to possess someone whom you're not permitting to possess you. That's a little psychotic.

[Q] Is this all about life on the edge or is it ego?

[A] For me, it's a mixture. The danger plays a part, sure. But it's tremendously gratifying for me to know I can please other women. So, yes, there's a lot of ego involved. If I had done this three times and three times the women had told me I was a shitty lover, I wouldn't still be doing this.

[Q] Where do you go for your affairs?

[A] Sometimes in cars, once it was in the ladies' room at a Bennigan's.

[Q] Really?

[A] Yeah. I met her at the bar. Things were going good, we were both really drunk. She pulled me into the ladies' room and started giving me head. Not in a stall, but in the middle of the bathroom while women were coming and going. That certainly isn't typical. Most of the times it's motels or her place--even my place when my wife is out of town.

[A] I know, I know--here we go: "Did you do it in your marital bed?"

[Q] Did I say that?

[A] You were about to. And let me tell you, it kills me when people say that. It's so hypocritical. What's the difference if I'm in a motel or my own bedroom? I'm still with another woman. That's the issue--that's the act--so to me there is no difference. Sure, it's a little more dangerous, but doing it in my home isn't a particularly compelling or erotic thing. My wife was out of town, so why should I go to a fucking motel? The opportunity presented itself and that's the key: Make the most of your opportunities in life.

[Q] When was the last time you cheated?

[A] I'd say three weeks ago. She was 25, a waitress at a fancy restaurant I dine at with my wife. I had a dinner meeting and when it ended I went up to the bar and she brought me a drink. She was getting off early, so we went out for a drink and it just happened.

[Q] And you had no fear that it might go further than this one night?

[A] The fear was that I would want more.

[Q] Why?

[A] Because she was so pretty, she had a terrific personality and the sex was great. With very little effort, things could have really developed. So I don't let them. To do so is the kiss of fucking death. If you were to ask me what the most intimate aspects of these onenighters were, kissing by far is more intimate than fucking or going down on a woman. Consequently, there aren't a lot of women I make out with.

[Q] Don't they notice?

[A] No, because I can still be hugging them and caressing them and kissing them all over their bodies. What I'm talking about is a long, mouth-to-mouth kiss. That's very rare for me. It's putting your shield down. I have to have a real strong feeling to be that intimate. I don't have to have that kind of feeling to kiss them on the ass or the back of their legs--that's sexual kissing. Passionate kissing is another level. Kissing can make me feel guilty. Fucking can't.

[Q] Do you ever think of your wife when you're with those other women?

[A] I try not to, because on a certain level, it's wrong. Keep in mind, I'm not proud of any of this. I don't think what I do is bad or evil, but I do think it's wrong. If I start thinking about my wife, well, I have yet to be with a woman who is better than my wife. If I start comparing, any woman's going to come up short. The idea isn't to minimize the moment but to maximize it.

[Q] Some men have affairs for the escapism, the chance to dump reality momentarily for a fantasy world. Is that true for you?

[A] I think it's the opposite. My reality is: I probably can't be loyal. It's not this tropical paradise escapism--I have nothing to escape from. I have a good life. I'm not looking to escape.

[Q] So what is it?

[A] I think I have a gift, and I'm just sharing it. Eddie Van Halen is a gifted guitarist who shares his music with his audience. I think that I'm a gifted romantic whose audience is women.

[Q] What do you do that's so special?

[A] I know what girls like, how to treat them. The thrill isn't to have a reputation or a history. It's just the woman telling you, "You were great." If I were with a woman and she didn't come or if she had a shitty time, I would be crushed. I know that women like to talk to their girlfriends, and I want them to say, "I was out with fucking Conan last night."

[Q] That's really important to you?

[A] Yeah. In the final analysis, it's fun and ego-gratifying to please someone else. If I play sports, I want to be the best. Well, that happens in bed, too. Would you rather be known as a great lover or a great businessman? Easy. There are a lot of great businessmen.

[Q] The reason I started this article was because I kept attracting married men and I didn't know why. Can you help me answer that?

[A] You're attractive, intelligent, you're immediately viewed as safe. There's little chance of your becoming a Fatal Attraction. Your own self-esteem, which transcends your personality, would not allow it. Also, you don't appear to be a wild woman who's out fucking every sailor in town. From a safe-sex standpoint, you would be a desirable candidate. And, as a journalist you understand protecting sources, so discretion would never be a problem with you.

[Q] [We finish our conversation. The tape recorder is off and we prepare to leave.]

[A] You know, George Plimpton, he experiences whatever he writes about. So if you're going to be true to your art, I don't know how you can understand me or this article or even be true to your editors unless we immediately go back to your place.

[Q] All in the name of research?

[A] I think you owe it to the article.

•

Name: Ron

Age: 42

Occupation: Film editor

Married: 15 years

Children: One

[Q] You had a long-term affair. Tell me how it began.

[A] At work. We were thrown together a couple of times to work on a project and we started sharing things with each other--ways in which we were alike and, in some cases, not alike. I'm not sure now if I was more attracted to the differences or to the similarities.

[A] Anyway, we were at dinner. We had a couple glasses of wine and she decided to sit on my side of the table. We were talking about the project and she was using her hands, and said, "Presto! It will be like this"--and she put her hand up and I took it. Suddenly we were holding hands. It wasn't intentional, it was instinctual. It was like we had linked all of a sudden. She looked at me and I looked at her and, for a second, I got a chance to look inside--and I saw that there was some attraction there. A couple days later we were at dinner and we ended up holding hands again, but that time we cut to the chase. It was like: Something is happening here. I feel what I think you feel. We're going to get into a lot of trouble, aren't we? But we're also going to have big fun.

[Q] How long had you been married?

[A] Six years.

[Q] In the back of your mind, were you thinking, I'm a married man?

[A] That didn't enter my mind, but the moment was pretty intense. A flash went off and I thought, Wow, I have simpatico with somebody other than my partner. How am I supposed to handle this? It was only when I was driving home that I thought, What the fuck am I doing? Then I thought, OK. I had a little to drink, she had a little to drink, no commitments were made. It'll be forgotten by tomorrow. After all, we had just kind of laughed and said, "I like you, you like me, things could develop." No one had said, "Let's go back to my place," or whatever. That came later. [Laughs]

[Q] When?

[A] The next time we went out. It was one of those scenarios where I took her back to her car, we sat and talked for a long time and she asked me to come home with her. I told her I just couldn't--it would be a problem. So nothing happened for a while. Finally, there was a Saturday when we both had to work. We finished early and went back to her apartment to have a drink and to talk.

[Q] Did you know consciously that you were crossing a line?

[A] Pretty much so, but at that point it didn't matter. I sort of said, "Fuck it, I'm in it for the whole thing." I liked her.

[Q] And what happened?

[A] We made love, talked, made love again, cooked food, made love, took a little break, got our energy back and then went at it again. We showered and I went home. Then we had to figure out how we were going to see each other, which was a bit of a logistics problem because her life was busy and so was mine. Sometimes we would go to a show. Sometimes we would just get together to talk. It wasn't always for the physical part--though that was great and there wasn't any problem with it--but it was more than that. There was a meeting of the minds.

[A] Maybe it was my insecurity; maybe I was wondering if I was still attractive. There's a line in Moonstruck that asks: Why do men cheat? And Olympia Dukakis says, "Maybe it's because they fear death"--that they're afraid of getting old. I wasn't exactly afraid of getting old, but you do wonder if you're still attractive, if you're still interesting. Things sometimes become routine. There are some people who just want to fuck, but I began to feel that I was getting something from this individual that I wasn't getting from my partner.

[Q] Such as?

[A] Probably the fact that she listened to me. Treated me as an equal. She encouraged me to feel like I could try things I hadn't tried.

[Q] Sexual things?

[A] Worldly things.

[Q] What about the sex?

[A] I had never been inhibited sexually, so I didn't feel uncomfortable about trying anything new. What I really liked was having her legs wrapped around my body and knowing she enjoyed it. If anything, my performance anxiety came when I wondered if I was pleasing her. If indeed I was, then that made me happy.

[Q] It sounds as if you might have considered leaving your wife for this woman.

[A] Yes. We considered it and talked about it. But her response was, "Everybody says that when they're having an affair. They always plan all this stuff. But you know only a little bit about me. You're not there when I wake up in the morning with bad breath and my hair all messed up. We've had disagreements, but you haven't seen me really angry." Basically, she was saying, "That's not what I want to hear because it comes too close to the promises everyone always makes, promises they can't keep. So let's just continue to have this relationship and see how things go."

[Q] And?

[A] And things went pretty well. But remember, she was single at the time. I'm this married guy and, of course, all the traditional things begin to set in. You try as hard as you can to be there for holidays but it's difficult. Birthdays you can do because you don't necessarily have to be with family on that day, but Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter--those things are blocked out for family. So you kind of kiss that person goodbye during those particular times. Well, after five or six years of that....

[Q] How did it end?

[A] Eventually, she told me she was going to concentrate her time on this other guy she had met.

[Q] How did she tell you?

[A] We had gone jogging, we came back and took a shower together, made love, lay in bed for a while. While we were getting dressed, she said, "I don't know how much longer this can go on. I don't want to be second best, I need to be first in somebody's life." I knew I had to make a decision. She had this other person, but she didn't want to get into who she liked better. I never asked if they had made love--I didn't want to know. But, basically, she needed more than a bed buddy, and I wasn't ready to make a break at that time.

[Q] Why not?

[A] My daughter was still young. I was reading everything on the subject I possibly could, trying to figure out what happens when you leave your kid at a young age. Do they go fucking crazy or what? There's no way to figure that out. You just have to do what's best for you.

[Q] How did you feel once it was all over?

[A] I was upset. I walked out of the apartment and thought, That's it, you're fucking through, buddy. My stomach kind of fell out. I felt like I had made the wrong choice. I was pretty crushed and so was she. I thought about what I was going home to. I found out later that what she had wanted me to say was, "I'll get out of my marriage." Eventually, she married the other person.

[Q] But she really wanted you.

[A] I don't think it's ego, but I like the fact that, to this day, we're still friends and we share that little smile that says, "I know more about you than most people do." In my wildest egomaniac moments, I wonder if I could woo her back. I feel like I could, but I wouldn't try it while I was still married.

[Q] Why not?

[A] That would violate a little rule I had made for myself: I don't want to do this again. I didn't like the hurt on her face. The highs were very high, but when it was low I always had the feeling it was lower for her than it was for me.

[Q] Did you have any guilt?

[A] Oh, yeah--a whole lot of it. I even went back to church.

[Q] Really?

[A] Yeah. I remember one night after it ended, I wanted to drive by and see her and I thought, No, you can't do that. So I went to a church instead. The doors were locked and I thought, Holy shit, I'm locked out. This is a sign. I'd read passages about adulterers. I even had dreams that I had a big red "A" on my forehead, and that family and friends disowned me because I had dishonored them. No one can beat you up more than you can beat yourself up.

[Q] Did your wife ever find out about your affair?

[A] Yes.

[Q] How?

[A] After the relationship was over, I sent this woman flowers on her birthday. The card read, "Love, Me." For some reason, the florist sent a copy of the bill back to my house. My wife read it and asked what was going on. I had to tell her. She was very upset. I told her it was over, but she wanted to know why I sent the flowers. I told her it was because I still cared. She asked me if I loved the other woman and I told her yes, but that I was here with her now and that I loved her, too.

[Q] So now you're making a conscious effort not to have affairs?

[A] Yeah, because I didn't like the outcome of my affair and I didn't like myself very much afterward. It didn't occur to me during the affair, but now I realize: I don't want to be one of those talk-show guys. I want to be able to say no. Am I tempted? Fuck yes, I'm tempted. Do I have fantasies? Yes. But I'm trying not to act on them. I can handle the affair, I just can't handle the ride down afterward. For me, it was mostly the look on her face when it was over.

[Q] Did the affair strengthen your marriage in any way?

[A] Yes. We both now say what's on our minds a little more directly. One stipulation after we discussed this was that if she was going to harangue me for the rest of eternity about this, I was gone. She couldn't have put any more guilt on me than I already felt myself. She could choose to believe it or not believe it, but I refused to live with her using it as a hammer to beat me. That definitely would have sent me away.

[A] But there were a couple of stormy months. Then some things happened that just naturally brought us together.

[Q] Like what?

[A] Little things. Like when you're putting out the sprinkler and accidentally get wet. So you start running through it a few times. And then you both start laughing and acting childlike again.

[Q] In other words, you got the spark back.

[A] Yeah. You kind of make peace and you let it all go.

[Q] Have you been tempted since then?

[A] There was one woman--we met for a drink after work, we sat and talked and I told her that I always wanted to kiss her, just to see what she tasted like. We kissed and it was real good--but that bell went off and I had to go. So we leave and we're driving our separate cars. She's next to me at the light, I roll the window down and say, "You know, I should have asked to go home with you. If I had, what would you have said?" She smiles and says, "You should have asked." Then the light turns green and she takes off. I thought, Oh fuck. But in retrospect, after I got home and everything was cool and I went to sleep with the covers over my head, realizing I was safe, I thought it was pretty cool, a nice stroke.

[Q] Is that enough, just knowing that women are interested?

[A] It has to be enough.