Playboy Interview: Jerry Jones

Jerry Jones had stepped in it once again. Last March, while still basking in January's Super Bowl triumph, the controversial owner of the Dallas Cowboys brought the extended victory party to an abrupt end. In a public relations bombshell, Jones revealed that after a series of private and not-so-private brawls, he and head coach Jimmy Johnson would part company: Johnson would immediately leave the Cowboys, bequeathing the shot at an unprecedented third straight Super Bowl victory to a new head coach.

The explosive event captured the kind of attention usually reserved for Roseannes and Toms. After all, theirs was not your typical owner-coach relationship. The brilliant Jones-and-Johnson collaboration began in 1989, when Jones, an Arkansas oil-and-gas magnate, bought the Cowboys and hired Johnson (who had coached the University of Miami to a national title in 1987) as the team's new head coach. After the Cowboys posted losing seasons of 1--15 in 1989 and 7--9 in 1990, Johnson led the team to the playoffs in 1991, and then on to consecutive Super Bowl victories in 1993 and 1994. Most football experts had picked Dallas to go all the way again this season--but that was before the breakup.

Jones followed the announcement of Johnson's exit with another shocking bit of news: As Johnson's successor, he named Barry Switzer, who five years before had stepped down as head coach of the University of Oklahoma's football team after several of his players were arrested on charges that included cocaine sales (to undercover FBI agents), possession of cocaine and, in one case, shooting a teammate. Switzer hadn't coached football since then.

Cowboys fans were apoplectic. In Dallas' 34-year football history, the team had only two head coaches--Tom Landry and Jimmy Johnson--and Jones had canned both of them. And now he was adding insult to injury by naming an exiled college coach with no NFL experience as heir to football's most coveted throne.

The uproar, of course, was nothing compared to the brouhaha that erupted when Landry was unceremoniously dumped in 1989. Dallas seemed to revel in its denunciations of the two new kids on the block. When Jones and Johnson hit town for public events, they were referred to as "the Jaybirds" and "the Hick and the Hairdo" (the latter in reference to Johnson's helmet-like coif).

But of the two men, Jones was the focus of Cowboys loyalists' ire. The "Dallas Times Herald" published a letter stating that "Jones is 100 percent oink," and a group of journalists reportedly formed a Bury Jerry club, devoted to unearthing any dirt they could find on the businessman--turned--football-baron. The new owner's response was typical: He brushed aside the assaults and continued his staff adjustments, firing most of the team's office workers.

A tireless entrepreneur who, in addition to gas-and-oil exploration, made millions in real estate, banking and poultry, Jerry Jones has lived a life propelled by nonstop activity. Born in Los Angeles in 1942, Jerral Wayne Jones moved with his parents, Arminta and J.W. "Pat" Jones, to Little Rock, Arkansas at the end of World War Two. When they arrived, Pat supported his family by selling chickens, rabbits and eggs out of a truck. He next opened a fruit stand, and then a drive-up grocery market that turned into a chain of stores. Later, Pat Jones founded the Modern Security Life Insurance Co.

Young Jerry, meanwhile, helped out in all the family endeavors. By the time he was awarded a football scholarship to the University of Arkansas in 1959, Jerry Jones was selling insurance and catalog shoes, driving a Cadillac and earning $1000 a month. He also found a more personal kind of fortune on his first day at college, when he met Eugenia Chambers, who'd recently been voted Miss Arkansas. They began dating and were married during Jones junior year. (Last January, Gene and Jerry Jones celebrated their 30th anniversary.)

Jones enjoyed making money, but his passion was football. At 200 pounds and a shade over six feet tall, he was soon a starting offensive lineman for the Razorbacks. So was Jimmy Johnson, Jones' roommate when the team was on the road. In 1963 Jones, who had good speed, was converted to a starting fullback. That fall prognosticators picked the Razorbacks to be national champions, but the Hogs finished 5--5.

At the time, Jones was technically a senior and able to graduate the following June, but that would have meant giving up his final season of football eligibility. So he left himself one credit short of what was required for graduation and stayed in school. In his fifth autumn at Arkansas, he was a starting offensive guard on the Razorback team that did win the national championship. When he finally left the University of Arkansas in 1965, Jones received an undergraduate degree in finance and a master's degree in speech and communication.

True to a style that would one day become his trademark, Jones decided to think big for his first postcollege business venture. Only 23, he learned that an 85 percent interest in the San Diego Chargers of the American Foot-League was up for sale. The asking price was $5.8 million. He found a pension retirement fund to lend him the money for the deal, but he ultimately backed out, concluding that he couldn't afford to pay the interest on a loan of that size. A few months later the AFL merged with the NFL, and all the AFL teams doubled in value. The Chargers were sold for nearly $12 million.

Jones was crushed. His inaction had cost him both $6 million and the opportunity to own and run an NFL team. "I thought my chance had passed me by," he says. "And for all practical purposes, it had."

Despite--or, perhaps, because of--his tendency to take risks, the next few years brought Jones nothing but grief. He bought a number of real estate parcels in Springfield, Missouri, but land values there plummeted, and Jones found himself financially strapped. The same type of misfortune would follow with a series of failed stock ventures.

But then Jones found his deliverance--oil and gas in Oklahoma--and kicked off an 11-year hot streak. He commuted regularly from Little Rock to Oklahoma City and back. Now a father, Jones would not allow his family's wealth to be tied up solely in oil and gas. He rolled out his bounty into real estate investments and various other ancillary businesses. "Owning the Cowboys is a lay-down compared to many of the other things I've done," he's noted.

In 1989, more than two decades after he'd missed out on striking gold with the San Diego Chargers, Jones learned that the Dallas Cowboys were on the market for the second time in four years. By then Jones no longer needed a loan to buy a football team.

He jumped at the offer--and straigt into football history.

To their view Jones, we assigned Lowrence Linderman, whose Playboy Interviews with gridiron stars span nearly three decades, including conversations with Joe Namath, O.J. Simpson and former NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle. Linderman met with Jones at the Cowboys' Valley Ranch headquarters just outside Dallas. Here's his report:

"After a practice session, Jones, dressed in a suit and tie on a hot Dallas day, greeted me cordially. The Cowboys' owner has thick, sandy hair that's starting to gray and sparkling blue eyes. His office inside the main complex is about 40 feet long, not terribly wide, and filled with Cowboy memorabilia. The team's four silver Super Bowl trophies occupy a prominent place at one end of the room, with Jones' desk at the other end.

"When we first sat down to talk, I mentioned to Jones that I'd recently seen him charm the daylights out of the hostess of a CNBC-TV talk show--without really saying anything of substance. Consequently, I said, Playboy and I were aiming for straight talk. That was fine with him, Jones replied, adding that he felt the Playboy Interview was a good forum to clear up many misconceptions people have about him.

"Jones is highly focused, and aside from the occasional interruption, his concentration never seemed to waver. During our more than nine hours of conversation, he didn't once ask to take a break. One of Jones' greatest assets is his energy--and even he doesn't know where that comes from. During the first year he owned the Cowboys, he told me, he didn't sleep for more than one hour a night. He said he'd been in perfect health before he took over the team, but since then he's developed arrhythmia ("Your heart just kind of flutters along," he says) and now has to take a blood thinner and other medications to guard against a possible stroke.

"When I first brought out my tape recorder, I mentioned to Jones that most football fans were still wondering what really happened between him and former coach Jimmy Johnson. Jones said he was aware of that, and was finally ready to discuss it in detail. That's how we started our conversation."

[Q] Playboy: When you and Jimmy Johnson parted company at the end of March, neither of you was forthcoming about what caused the breakuo. Depending on which press report we read, Johnson either quit or was fired. Which was it?

[A] Jones: Well, we mutually agreed that it was time for him to be fired.

[Q] Playboy: Would you mind breaking that down for us in plain English?

[A] Jones: Jimmy wasn't willing to resign, but he recognized that we had some issues between us that were going to keep us from being as effective as we needed to be. The fact is, I proposed to compensate him with an arbitrary amount of money. My reason for doing so was that I wanted to make a change. I certainly feel--and I would be surprised if he doesn't feel--that had I not wanted to make a change, he would probably still be coaching the Dallas Cowboys.

If you look at it from a technical standpoint, it's pretty clear that he was let go, because he had a contract. If Jimmy had decided he didn't want to coach the Cowboys anymore, then he wouldn't have been paid anything and he couldn't have gone anyplace else. But the bottom line is, Jimmy didn't leave kicking and screaming.

[Q] Playboy: He wanted to leave?

[A] Jones: Oh, yes. I think he felt that it was the thing to do, and he didn't resist the way things happened. We talked about it after my decision was made. I appreciated the way he handled it, and the attitude he had about our past and about the future. Because of that, I was pleased to do something for him that was probably pretty generous.

[Q] Playboy: Which was?

[A] Jones: Basically, I gave him $2 million.

[Q] Playboy: Several reports have claimed the settlement was actually hush money, obligating Johnson to keep quiet about any of the conflicts he had with you. Are these reports wrong?

[A] Jones: Yes, they are. The dollars that were paid were unconditional. There were no caveats and no conditions. Jimmy is under no obligation to make good comments about me. I hope that any he or I make about each other will be on a high plane, since the majority of our working time together--and frankly, the majority of our lives, because we've known each other for 35 years--has been as positive as you can imagine.

When Jimmy knew I was going to make a coaching change, he said, "If you're going to fire me, I think there should be some financial settlement in my agreement." That would be customary. He had five years remaining on his contract. If he never did anything again, I would have to pay him the full amount of that contract--and his salary was a million dollars a year.

[Q] Playboy: True, but you knew that any number of NFL teams would be willing to sign him when he was cut loose from the Cowboys.

[A] Jones: Exactly. But my point is that he was due a dollar amount if I fired him. And I did want to make a change. We had a great run for five years, and what I paid him was like a bonus based solely on what happened in the past. He felt good about it, and I felt good about it. In my view, the money I paid him was a consideration to resolve our differences.

[Q] Playboy: Did those differences have anything to do with your public blowup at Johnson during the league's winter meetings in Florida?

[A] Jones: No, I'd already decided to make a change by then. What happened at an NFL function at Epcot Center was this: As I was leaving, I passed a table that included Johnson, two of our former coaches and their wives. And there was another lady who used to do our TV business. I had briefly seen most of the group earlier, and, fundamentally, I wanted to make a toast to the success we had enjoyed together.

[Q] Playboy: What did you say?

[A] Jones: I said, "I want to personally thank everybody here for the contributions you all made to the Cowboys on an individual basis. This is a unique group of people." I immediately sensed a coolness, and I overreacted.

[Q] Playboy: In what way?

[A] Jones: Well, I saw Jimmy looking at me but not saying anything--and not being enthused. No one was particularly enthusiastic. So I said--and it was an over-reaction--"Well, don't let me interrupt your deal here." I later found out that they were sitting around telling negative stories about me. By the way, several of those people are good friends of mine. It was just an awkward situation for everyone concerned.

[Q] Playboy: Awkward is mild. It was said that you were so steamed you went into the bar and told reporters there were 500 guys who could coach the Cowboys--and that Oklahoma coach Barry Switzer was one of them.

[A] Jones: The part about the 500 guys was hyperbole. I was angry, but I knew from my past that whenever I've mentioned a possible decision to a third party--and it has usually been to my wife, and usually after I've kept it to myself for some time--I've already made the decision.

I remember the day I told a third party about wanting to buy the Dallas Cowboys, after having kept it to myself for four or five weeks. Later that day, when I looked in the mirror, I knew I was on my way to buying the team. I guess it's something I've done regarding every important decision I've ever made: When I put something out verbally, I have to back it up.

[Q] Playboy: So back to the bar. What did you mean about all the other coaches who could lead Dallas to a Super Bowl?

[A] Jones: I knew that I'd had it with Jimmy. What ended up happening was I told myself, "If there's going to be a change, I have to do it at this particular time. I cannot wait until we get closer to the season. It's going to be traumatic, but if I'm going to do it, I'd better do it now."

[Q] Playboy: By then, had you been in contact with Switzer about the Cowboys' head coaching job?

[A] Jones: I'd been in contact with him, but not about this job. I had seen Barry during football season--he asked me to come over and speak at the University of Oklahoma. But as far as contacting him about doing this job, no.

[Q] Playboy: When did you offer him the coaching spot?

[A] Jones: I called him on a Sunday and said, "I'm going to be visiting with Jimmy over the next couple of days, and if things go in one direction, then I'm going to want to talk with you about being our head coach." I met with Jimmy on Monday and when things didn't work out, I offered the job to Barry.

[Q] Playboy: Switzer hasn't coached since 1988 and has no pro football coaching experience. Why did you hire him?

[A] Jones: First of all, I feel that Barry's background in coaching qualifies him for the job. But I've also satisfied myself that Barry is someone I can work with successfully and be able to continue working with for quite some time.

[Q] Playboy: What makes you think so?

[A] Jones: I analyzed his situation and spoke with other people about Barry before I ever talked with him. And I knew his background. Switzer was my freshman football coach at Arkansas, and the last couple of years I was there, he coached the ends on offense.

I was criticized when I hired Jimmy--who was coming straight from college--and he worked out. That opened the door for college coaches to come into the NFL. In Barry's case, I believe that he's been raised from the dead. I think that by his becoming head coach of the Cowboys at this stage of his career, he's getting off his knee, much as the Cowboys did in 1991.

[Q] Playboy: Are you referring to the trouble his players at Oklahoma were in just before he stepped down?

[A] Jones: Yes, and when you think about the career he had, it's unfortunate his time there ended on that note. But taking all of his skills into consideration, I think he'll be tremendously motivated. He has an opportunity he never thought he was going to get again. All of a sudden, he has the chance to step up and coach arguably one of the greatest sports franchises there's ever been.

[Q] Playboy: So what happens now? Does Switzer get refresher courses from your coaching staff?

[A] Jones: Yes. He basically is a delegator. Jimmy is also a delegator, by the way. Whether he wants to admit it or not, Jimmy's one of the best delegators who ever came down the pike. He really delegated the actual coaching during the last two years and did it well. But Barry wrote the book on delegation--and he also wrote the book on developing meaningful relationships with his players and assistant coaches.

[Q] Playboy: How are Johnson and Switzer similar?

[A] Jones: One common denominator between Jimmy and Barry is their intelligence. Jimmy's a good motivator, Barry's a better motivator.

[Q] Playboy: And differences?

[A] Jones: The difference between the two is something that Barry Switzer has been criticized for: He can't say no, in a manner of speaking. He's been criticized for his loyalty to his players. He sometimes tried to help them through hard times. He's loyal to a fault--which, by the way, isn't a fault to me.

[Q] Playboy: Do you expect Switzer to make any offensive changes in the Cowboys?

[A] Jones: No. Our offensive philosophy will be the same one we've had for the past five years. That philosophy wasn't Jimmy's, incidentally. It was a philosophy that evolved from our coaching staff. Barry isn't going to do anything radical like run the wishbone offense here. He ran it at Oklahoma for the type of talent he was able to recruit there, but he appreciates that our offense is tailored for our talent.

We have a new offensive coordinator, Ernie Zampese, who came to us from the Los Angeles Rams. Ernie will be given most--if not all--of the offensive responsibility. When Zampese was the Rams' offensive coordinator, Norv Turner, our offensive coordinator last season--he's now head coach of the Redskins--worked under him. In a sense we now have the teacher, not the student.

[Q] Playboy: What you also have is a real coaching shake-up. What will the Cowboys miss this season as a result of Johnson's departure?

[A] Jones: We'll miss the kind of respect he developed with our players, respect that comes with having been their coach for five years. We'll miss that this year because Barry doesn't have a record with our team. I hope, because our team is at a high level of development, he will be able to maintain discipline and encourage additional conditioning. Barry told the players, "Don't come in here out of condition, or you may find someone else in your spot and yourself out on the highway." Jimmy was able to say that with more credibility because we had actually waived players under those circumstances. So we'll miss that.

[Q] Playboy: How much will your players miss Johnson? When All Pro wide receiver Michael Irvin heard that Johnson was gone, and was asked about it by reporters, he threw a garbage can at them. Do you sense any lingering resentment among the players?

[A] Jones: No, none at all. I've spoken about it with many of them. What I sense is that it's not something that needs to be addressed right now. Barry is personable and engaging. His style is to sit in the locker room with the players, and it's not a put-on. He gets personally involved with players. He's the kind of man who makes people want to do good things for him. Not that Jimmy didn't.

[Q] Playboy: Your players don't have the luxury of fully expressing how they feel about Johnson's removal. But just about everyone else involved in pro football thinks you've made a serious mistake. The Sporting News recently reported that the rest of the league is laughing at your helmsmanship of the Cowboys. Former Redskin quarterback--now ESPN football analyst--Joe Theismann trotted out that well-worn line: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Then he added the comment that you had made the San Francisco 49ers and the Buffalo Bills very happy teams.

[A] Jones: I can see where people would feel that this is a step back for our club. I want to reiterate that I believe there's no coach better than Jimmy Johnson. I believe that very strongly, even more than I did when I hired him. Well, OK, he may be the best there is, but that's not the point of this whole thing.

When I bought the team in 1989, those same people and publications were saying almost exactly the same thing about my hiring Jimmy. When we first got here, even Theismann criticized me for hiring a college coach. If those quotes are an omen, I welcome them. We faced the same kind of criticism when we got here, and look at the success the team's achieved.

I've given this fine football team a challenge: a head-coaching change as we go into the 1994 season. But I corrected one problem. We won't have a management team and head coach who aren't on the same page.

[Q] Playboy: If that was your problem with Jimmy Johnson, did you resolve your differences with him when you gave him that $2 million in going-away money?

[A] Jones: We didn't resolve anything, no. We had done well together up until that point, but Jimmy and I agreed our working relationship was deteriorating by the minute. We weren't going to give a big black eye to something that was very good. He didn't need it, I didn't need it, the team didn't need it.

[Q] Playboy: You and Johnson had always been depicted as buddies. You both played football for the University of Arkansas, and you roomed together on the road. But Johnson now says you and he were never close friends. Is that true?

[A] Jones: No, it's not. We stayed in touch after we graduated. I was in the insurance business then, but in 1971 I went into the oil business and began to spend a lot of time in Oklahoma City. I got to know several supporters of Oklahoma State's football team. When the school was looking for a new head football coach I called Jimmy, who was then an assistant coach at the University of Pittsburgh. I told him, "I have some associates who are a part of the process of hiring a new coach at Oklahoma State. I talked with them about you, and you ought to come out here and visit. It could be an opportunity for you." Jimmy flew out to Oklahoma and met with the people he had to. That's how he got his first head-coaching job.

When I bought the Cowboys and made Jimmy our coach, we were portrayed as lifelong confidants and best buddies, which we were. But I don't think Jimmy wanted to reinforce that, so in 1990 or 1991 he started saying, "Look, I want to clear up the record: Jerry and I aren't social friends. We don't go out and eat and do those kinds of things. Fundamentally, we're friends, but not best friends."

[Q] Playboy: How did you feel about that?

[A] Jones: It definitely got my attention. But at that particular time we were both excited about the prospects of the future. We could see that after the Cowboys had won one game in 1989 and seven in 1990. Good things were happening.

[Q] Playboy: At the time, how did Dallas feel about you and Johnson taking over the Cowboys?

[A] Jones: The two of us took a lot of heat in those first couple of years, and most of it was directed at me for making personnel changes. I was the man who fired Tom Landry, the only coach the Cowboys had ever had. There's no question that between the two of us--me and Jimmy Johnson--I was the one who became Darth Vader.

[Q] Playboy: Were you surprised by that?

[A] Jones: The only surprise for me was the depth--or the breadth, if you will--of criticism I got for replacing coach Landry. I had tremendous respect for him, but I really thought that most people who followed the Dallas Cowboys felt it was time for a change. Because of the team's poor performance over those last few years, the Cowboys were down both on and off the field. So it was a real shock to come in and put $140 million at risk and not get a honeymoon or the type of treatment one would normally get for investing in a community.

[Q] Playboy: How much of that $140 million did you come up with personally?

[A] Jones: I put up all of it, and I did it in stages. After I bought out Bum Bright, the majority owner, I proceeded to buy out the other limited partners. I also bought Texas Stadium--actually, the 75-year lease on the stadium, which is owned by the city of Irving--from Bright and his partners. I paid about $65 million for the team and $75 million for Texas Stadium, which was really the Achilles' heel of the deal. At that point 12.5 percent of the stadium had been foreclosed and was owned by the FDIC. I had to buy it back from the FDIC.

[Q] Playboy: What was the problem?

[A] Jones: I bought out Bright, Texas Stadium was losing $4 million a year, and the prospects for it to do better were dim. Dallas was down economically. It was a bad time to try to sell or lease stadium suites. Secondly, the concession business wasn't worth a flip because Texas Stadium was the only major venue in sports that didn't have beer sales. It's changed since then. But concessions and suites are two primary sources of revenue--and I didn't have any answer for it.

[Q] Playboy: But you plunged in anyway.

[A] Jones: I knew I had made a very risky move. I knew how scared I was when I realized that I had put more money on the line to buy a team--my own money, not a partnership's or a consortium's--than anybody in the history of sports.

[Q] Playboy: If the Cowboys hadn't ultimately panned out for you, would you have gone broke?

[A] Jones: No. The only way that could have happened would have been if the team had operated at huge losses--which, by the way, it was expected to do. One big accounting firm advised me that we would be losing as much as $25 million a year by my fourth year of operation. It's fair to say that if I didn't have the kind of respect for the Cowboys that I do have--as well as an interest in being in the NFL--I wouldn't have made a purchase that was almost a financial devil for me.

[Q] Playboy: You're being a bit cagey about your financial stake. By then, hadn't you struck enough oil in Oklahoma to buy the Cowboys several times over?

[A] Jones: Let's just say that I was positioned to think about the Cowboys because of the resources I had built principally--but not exclusively--in oil and gas, which represented about 60 percent of my net worth.

[Q] Playboy: How did you get into the oil business?

[A] Jones: When I was in the insurance business, my sales area included Oklahoma. At the time, oil companies were laying off geologists and engineers because oil and gas prices were low. I became interested in the oil business and wanted to meet people with good ideas about it. I ran into a guy [geologist Bill Sparks] whose theory, basically, was to drill between dry holes. His idea was that dry holes defined the edges of oil and gas fields, which a million years ago were rivers. Hydrocarbons were deposited in the beds of sand. This guy worked for a major oil company, but because he was a soft-spoken geologist, he didn't have the ability to sell his company on his idea. When I met him, he convinced me that he had some locations that might be interesting. So I borrowed about $80,000 to buy a lease and we drilled a well--and struck oil. I leveraged that money and kept leveraging. Between 1971 and 1974 we drilled 12 wells and all of them came in. That made me a millionaire. But I still wasn't willing to lose money on the Cowboys.

[Q] Playboy: What was the problem about buying the team?

[A] Jones: The Cowboys weren't a good business risk. I could have taken ten other business opportunities and put them beside the Cowboys, and any of them would have been a much better thing to do with my resources and my time.

[Q] Playboy: Then why didn't you?

[A] Jones: I wanted to become a person of credibility and stature in sports. And the Cowboys were the obvious team for me, because I had spent the principal part of my life living and doing business in the Southwest. It was apparent to me that the Cowboys were a sporting institution--like the New York Yankees and Boston Celtics--that had fallen on evil days. That was a big part of it. I also knew that we were in a downtime. In 1989 Texas was perhaps at its lowest point financially in two or three decades. Had the Cowboys been riding high and had the Texas economy been booming, I probably never would have had the opportunity or even thought about buying the Cowboys.

[Q] Playboy: Why not?

[A] Jones: On a practical level, it wouldn't have made any financial sense at all. The time to get involved and make your mark is when something is either starting or when it's down on one knee. Then you go in and, if you need to take your licks, you do. If you can get it going, you've really accomplished something.

I'll tell you something else: Deep down, I knew I had to buy the Cowboys. Was I taking a chance on going bankrupt? No, I wasn't. All I was doing was tying up my liquid assets. If I didn't do it, I would have wondered for the rest of my life: Where was your spunk? You keep saying you go around only one time, so why didn't you put it up there when you had your chance? I would have always second-guessed myself.

[Q] Playboy: Did you see the Cowboys both as a way to make money and win Super Bowls?

[A] Jones: It actually went beyond both of those things. When Jimmy and I were in Little Rock right after Christmas in 1988, I told him that, because the Dallas Cowboys were down, we could be a part of one of the greatest sports stories ever told. I said, "Let's push football away for just a second. Right now, Dallas, as well as the rest of Texas, is down. Great fortunes have been lost. We could go down to Dallas and help Texas recover from its financial predicament. If we could get the Dallas Cowboys going again," I said, "20 years from now people down there will look back and say, 'Hey, you know when this thing started turning around? At just about the same time the Cowboys started kicking ass.'"

[Q] Playboy: But the Cowboys didn't start kicking ass right away. In 1988, the year before you bought the team, the Cowboys lost $10 million. How much did you lose in 1989?

[A] Jones: I didn't lose anything. Texas Stadium turned out not to be an Achilles' heel after all. When I bought the stadium, 105 of more than 200 suites had not been sold. Those suites--75 percent of them--were not occupied during the games for five years. The Cowboys couldn't even rent them out. Of course, the rest of the stadium was quite empty, too, during that period. In our first year--when we won one game--we sold more than $20 million worth of suites.

[Q] Playboy: How did you swing that?

[A] Jones: Through effort and persistence. Jimmy and I would make appointments to talk with people. Our selling point was: The way to get involved in the team was to become a suite owner at Texas Stadium. Over a three-and-a-half-year period, we were able to sell all the suites--$60 million worth--and by then we were building more. We now have 385 suites at the stadium, the most in the NFL.

[Q] Playboy: What do suites cost?

[A] Jones: They go from $350,000 to $2 million. I believe we're now the most valuable franchise in sports. But we certainly wern't when I bought it. No one thought we had any chance of success.

[Q] Playboy: But you still made some pretty wild public pronouncements. What was the comment you made about Jimmy Johnson's worth?

[A] Jones: Because of all the criticism I took about replacing Landry, I got a little defensive and said that Jimmy would be worth five Heisman Trophy winners and five number one draft picks. I felt very strongly that Jimmy would be successful.

[Q] Playboy: Did he appreciate that?

[A] Jones: Sure he did. And I would remind us both that I was getting my brains kicked out for not bringing in somebody who was an experienced NFL coach or general manager. But that was one of the main reasons I bought the team: I wanted to be involved--daily--directing the Cowboys back to a Super Bowl.

[Q] Playboy: Personally involved? The way Al Davis is with the Los Angeles Raiders?

[A] Jones: Yes. The Dallas Cowboys obviously had a history of accomplished and visible coaching, but it never had any visibility in ownership. I'm sometimes amused at just how little credit ownership gets for the success of teams. Sports has a problem with that, and I, particularly, have taken issue with it. My chief role is running and managing this team, not owning it. If you go back to the first night I ever stepped up and said I was going to buy the Cowboys, you'll see that I said was going to be involved in every aspect of the organization, from the socks and jocks on in.

[Q] Playboy: Did you ever worry that you might not be qualified to be involved in every aspect of the team?

[A] Jones: No, I really didn't. This isn't a law firm or a medical practice. This is a football team. And in order for Jimmy Johnson and me to take it out of a nosedive and bring it back up again, I had to find the best qualified management that was available. And that was me. No one was going to run this ship the way I would. No one was going to be as sensitive to the risks involved in buying this team as I.

[Q] Playboy: Neither you nor Johnson initially had any experience in running an NFL team. How long did it take you both to get up to speed?

[A] Jones: Not long at all. It's true, at first neither of us knew what the hell we were doing. But we were absolutely gung ho--plugged into 220-volt sockets, not 110. I had never made a trade, Jimmy had never made a trade. He would read his books on NFL rules. I was going to owners' meetings--we were trying to elect a new commissioner--and spending breakfast, lunch and dinner with every one of those owners. I'd carry the NFL rule book with me and ask them about their backgrounds, trying to figure out how to run a team. It was so competitive out there that we had to thonk football, live it and breathe it during every waking moment.

Jimmy would go home, I'm sure, and think about the team 29 hours a day. I did the same. My theory the--and it's the same today--was that if two people can get back to back and communicate in a way that anticipates every contingency, then they would do fine. And we did. When an opportunity came up, we were on it yesterday. And we wouldn't hesitate, either. Early on, people in the league were saying, "God, those guys make decisions so quickly. It's almost like they're not thought out." But they were thought out, by Jimmy and me.

[Q] Playboy: The roles of management and ownership are different. And your hands-on style has brought you your share of trouble.

[A] Jones: Right. If I were thought of as management rather than as owner, I wouldn't have had some of the problems I've had.

[Q] Playboy: What kinds of problems are you talking about?

[A] Jones: The simplest one is the misunderstanding I ran into when I said the Cowboys "aren't a Jimmy thing, they're a we thing." But that's the way it's always been. Our decisions regarding drafting, trades, the way this team was built, were we decisions. No one had a problem with that when we were getting our butts kicked back in 1989 and 1990. But when we started winning--and then went to the Super Bowls--people started hearing that the guy who owns the Cowboys has an ego as big as Texas. My ego never got in the way of any decisions the Cowboys made. We didn't operate that way.

[Q] Playboy: How do you operate?

[A] Jones: When it was me and Jimmy, our technical agreement was this: Jimmy did not have the authority to make any trade, to trade any draft pick or to waive anybody. What he had was the right to approve or disapprove if I wanted to waive or hire a player. That was the sum total of our agreement.

[Q] Playboy: And your role?

[A] Jones: Generally, it worked backward for me. What would happen is, Jimmy--through the coaching staff--would recommend a specific player, and I would approve or disapprove it. Our deal was a simple process that would cause us to go over the recommendation, whether it was a trade or a draft pick. I was not only fully informed, I would do my homework. I have an independent consultant, who advises several teams, to advise me on any players we might be interested in.

All of that went into the deal, the idea being that two heads are better than one. Any time we made a player decision around here, it was a joint decision. You want to know how many disagreements we had over the five years Jimmy coached the Cowboys? Not one. We never had a single disagreement.

[Q] Playboy: You have us puzzled here, Jerry. If you and Johnson never had a falling out over something as crucial as player personnel, what was the problem with your working relationship? Did he want to run the whole show by himself?

[A] Jones: That's astute--I think you've been reading tea leaves. We operated for five years exactly the way the plan was drawn up from the day I walked in here. When I bought the team, I wanted a situation where the entire focus of the coach--whether it was marketing or his involvement in endorsements--would be for the benefit of the team. That's the way our agreement was written: Everything would be focused toward the team.

[Q] Playboy: Why were you so concerned about that?

[A] Jones: Because I'd seen examples of other coaches putting themselves ahead of their teams, from the standpoint of marketing and promotion. For example, I admire and respect Mike Ditka, and I don't mean to be critical of him, but it seemed pretty clear to me that there was a Ditka enterprise, so to speak, going--and then there was the Chicago Bears. That's not what I wanted when I bought the Cowboys. And that's not what I put in place.

Jimmy and I had an understanding about all of this in 1989, but at the end of each year it was obvious that we were headed to more of a what's-in-the-best-interest-of-Jimmy thing. My resistance to that has been perceived as an ego thing: "Jones doesn't like it because Johnson is getting all the credit." Or "Jones doesn't like it even though the Cowboys are winning Super Bowls." Now, you ask, "Well, isn't all this in Jones' best interest?" Yes, it's in my best interest, but that's a little different from what we had going for us.

I think in the short haul, maybe we could have won it all again this season with Jimmy. But in the long haul, that would have meant moving closer to a compromising position in which everything was oriented toward the coach as an individual and not toward the team.

Of course, you're hearing my side of the story. Every time I say this is a we thing, the press says, "Well, there's Jones wanting to stand up on the sideline with the coach." Well, maybe there is some of that in me, but the principal thing here was looking out for the best interest of the Dallas Cowboys. And it was painful--very painful--to make the break.

[Q] Playboy: But Johnson had led the Cowboys to two straight Super Bowl victories and seemed ready to take the team to an unprecedented third. Couldn't you have at least waited another year to make the coaching change?

[A] Jones: It was time. It was the culmination of a lot of reasons, not just because I was feeling slighted. It had become crystal clear that Jimmy and I were not on the same page.

[Q] Playboy: Explain that.

[A] Jones: Look, Jimmy was certainly intent on doing a great job of coaching this football team. There was never any question in my mind about that. But if we couldn't get that much energy together and keep going at that same pace, we wouldn't get the job done this year. And if that was the case, it would spread through this complex like wildfire.

[Q] Playboy: In what way?

[A] Jones: When I walked out onto the practice field, and he walked out onto the practice field, our players would see it--and it would hurt the team. You know, I remember how strongly I felt about all this just before the 1994 Super Bowl, when Jimmy mentioned something about wanting to coach the expansion team in Jacksonville. I didn't care if he went to Jacksonville or not. If he had said that two years earlier, I would have gone and talked with him about it and nipped it in the bud. But the thing is, I had lost my enthusiasm for working with Jimmy. And, obviously, he felt the same way about working with me. A few years ago, we always tried to outdo each other in a good way. We knew our team was going to go like nobody's business. But in the end, my enthusiasm for him just wasn't there anymore. It wouldn't have bothered me if he had walked out two weeks before the Super Bowl--aside from the possibility of not winning it, of course. I just quit caring whether or not he would be part of anything I did in the future.

[Q] Playboy: Were there other major points of contention between you and Johnson?

[A] Jones: Just one, I think. Jimmy knew that I knew that someone else could coach this football team. Now, whether I'm right or not remains to be seen. But Jimmy knew it wasn't just me gigging him. He knew I believed other people could coach the Cowboys.

[Q] Playboy: Yes, but did he believe it?

[A] Jones: I dunk he did--and I think I have one of them out here right now.

[Q] Playboy: You've been describing a clash of egos that grew in relation to the Cowboys' success.

[A] Jones: Let me be real succinct about this: Let's say you hadn't been in my shoes for 25 years. Let's say you didn't have bankers call in your notes or, when you were in your 20s, you hadn't experienced not being able to pick up a glass and hold it without shaking because you had overextended yourself so much and couldn't pay your bills. Let's say that you had never really taken such huge financial risks that you thought that you might embarrass yourself and everybody around you. Without having done all that, there's just no way for you to be able to look at the Dallas Cowboys through my eyes. When I bought this club in 1989, I felt I had made an extreme commitment and taken extreme risks. As it turned out, I took harsh, unexpected criticism during a time when Jimmy was unproven, I was unproven, this whole deal was unproven. When I add all of that up, I don't see in Jimmy any appreciation for me.

[Q] Playboy: Johnson has called you a frustrated football coach. Any truth to that?

[A] Jones: Yes, I probably am a frustrated football coach. I respect people who coach. On the other hand, no one made me take the route I took in my life. I wanted to do more than coach. I wanted the challenge and the gain of the business world. Given the level of where the Dallas Cowboys are, I don't have to accept anything but the best in the coaching profession. Do I think I could coach the Cowboys? Yes. Most of us, given the opportunity, could do something other than what we've been doing and learn how to do it well. I certainly felt like I could go out and own and manage and run an NFL football team.

Yet while I say that I have the confidence to coach this football team, in the real world that would be the height of mismanagement and bad decision-making. It also wouldn't show respect to the team and the NFL if I stepped up and said, "Now that we've made a coaching change, I think I'm going to become the head coach."

[Q] Playboy: Mismanagement and bad decision-making be damned. Do you ever wonder how you would fare as a coach?

[A] Jones: Not seriously, though I'd like to demonstrate that I could do it. But it would be too high a price to pay for the Dallas Cowboys. There's too much at stake here for me to indulge realistically in that. Still, I want to understand everything I can about coaching for the purpose of making positive decisions. Am I interested in knowing what our defensive schemes are? Am I interested in knowing our coverages? Am I interested in knowing our routes? You bet. But do I have enough good judgment not to make suggestions about it? Yes. Without getting too sanctimonious here, let me tell you what my role with the Cowboys is: I have the idea that I really don't own the team. I'm its caretaker, charged with husbanding it during my tenure. I hope to be actively involved in this thing for the next 20 or 30 years.

Playboy: During the last game of the 1992 season, you brought Prince Bandar bin Sultan, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the U.S., to the Cowboys' sideline. According to Sports Illustrated, Johnson was so enraged by your invasion of his space that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Did that incident signal to you that it was only a matter of time before you and Johnson parted company?

[A] Jones: No, and that story was never portrayed accurately. Prince Bandar is a great Cowboys fan and I enjoy being around him because he gets excited about the competition. He had already been on our sideline a number of times. As a matter of fact, in a game against the New York Giants a year earlier, Bandar visited with Jimmy and talked with him about some bad calls that had gone against the Cowboys during that game.

The sideline was never the issue. After our game against the Chicago Bears was over--that's the game you're asking about--we had tight security, and we all ended up in the dressing room at a time normally reserved for a private team meeting. That was a sensitive issue to Jimmy, and I was sensitive about it, too. But because of our security people and the rush into the dressing room, we ended up with not only our players and our coaches, but other people, including Prince Bandar.

Jimmy and I were both aware of that, and I didn't normally do that. But under the circumstances there was nothing I could do about it. In fact, when it happened, I didn't get any negative feedback from Jimmy about it. He never looked me in the eye and said, "I'm upset with you for doing that." He wouldn't do that, anyway.

[Q] Playboy: Why not?

[A] Jones: Because it is a function of my position to have the luxury of being able to have accidents happen and not have to answer to anybody about it. It goes with the territory. When you run the deal and you have an accident, the guy who dresses you down is the guy in the mirror. You don't get it from anybody else.

What Jimmy really got upset about that day was that we were ahead in the game, 27--0, and then we played sloppy football toward the end and beat the Bears only 27--14. And I liked him for getting upset about that. But it's not acceptable for anybody to get mad at me for bringing someone to a sideline or a dressing room--and, again, the dressing-room part happened by accident.

[Q] Playboy: OK, let's go to the days when you two were NFL neophytes. How did you build up the Cowboys so quickly?

[A] Jones: Initially, through trades--the most important being the Herschel Walker trade. I wanted to trade Herschel from the first day that I got here. The cost of keeping him wouldn't make sense for what his contribution was going to be to our team. Herschel was the only player on our team--and one of the few in the NFL at that time--with a guaranteed contract. His contract for 1989 called for $2.1 million, and when we renewed the contract two years later, he was going to want it to be guaranteed.

[Q] Playboy: Meaning?

[A] Jones: Meaning we would be only one play away from losing him to an injury and thereby losing all the money we'd owe him. I also felt he would ask for a lot more money, probably $10 million to $12 million over three years. The logic from the Cowboys' perspective was that we were keenly aware of how low we were in talent and that we probably wouldn't be competitive in 1989. So to have a Pro Bowl running back in a situation like that made Herschel expendable. We had too many other areas that needed to be addressed. The goal is to win championships, not to have the league's rushing or passing leader.

[Q] Playboy: Cowboys fans were enraged by the Walker trade. How did you feel?

[A] Jones: The only thing I dreaded after making the trade on a Thursday was getting up on Friday morning and announcing it. I had already had my nose bloodied over making the coaching change. The theme of criticism I got was that, at every turn, I was doing everything I could to take away from the tradition of the Cowboys. I could almost picture a Cowboys fan firing a shot at me. I caught a lot of flak for that trade, but it turned out to be a win all the way around for us.

The Cowboys don't get too hung up on any individual. Football is a game you have to play together as a team. One person flinching before the ball is snapped can mess it up for not only the other ten, but also the 11 not on the field at that time. If you get too hung up on the difference one person can make, you're going to miss the point.

[Q] Playboy: If you really feel that way, how do you explain your decision last year to give running back Emmitt Smith--who was holding out for more money--the salary he wanted? Was it because the Cowboys had lost their first two games?

[A] Jones: I take issue with that. When we got beat by Buffalo, there's no question that Emmitt's absence was the excuse--but it wasn't the cause. How did 14 other teams win without Emmitt? We had good play from our running back in that game. We also had about six turnovers in two ball games. Our kick returner fumbled four punts. And we missed two out of three field goals against the Bills. Our team wasn't down because Emmitt wasn't with us. Does Emmitt make us a great, great team? When he's not there, are we a different team? Yes, he's that talented. But in those first two games we did things that caused us to lose. To Emmitt's credit, he finally came in on terms that were acceptable to me.

[Q] Playboy: How unacceptable were his original terms?

[A] Jones: We were dramatically apart.

[Q] Playboy: In which direction?

[A] Jones: I'm not talking about us going up to $13.5 million over a four-year contract as much as I'm talking about Emmitt's coming down to $13.5 million. Emmitt wanted more than what he would receive as one of the league's five highest-paid running backs. He wanted dollars in the quarterback range, which I could understand. And only 25 percent of the dollars we were negotiating for--which is still a lot of money--was coming out of my pocket. The rest would come out of the team's salary cap in years to come. And since we're always going to be paying to the limit of the cap, the dollars I was arguing for in three of the four years were not dollars that made any difference to me.

[Q] Playboy: You thought Smith might mess up your team's salary structure?

[A] Jones: Yes. The negotiation wasn't about my pocketbook versus Emmitt's wishes. It was: "Hey, we want to pay fair salaries to the rest of the team. If we can't reach an agreement, then we're going to designate you as our franchise player." That meant he would be paid the average of what the league's top five running backs earned over the next four years.

We weren't going to let Emmitt Smith play for another football team. By having him as our franchise player--each team is allowed just one--we knew he'd always be here. We had to pay Emmitt $13.5 million to keep him, which was fine with me. But if we paid him more, we wouldn't be managing this team properly. Those extra dollars might allow us to sign one--or perhaps even two--premiere offensive linemen.

I was glad when Emmitt signed for $13.5 million. By doing so, we didn't have to designate him as our franchise player after all. We still have that position available, because he signed for four years with an option. People might have confused our negotiations with a perceived lack of appreciation for Emmitt, but that wasn't the case.

[Q] Playboy: After signing Emmitt Smith, you had to worry about signing Troy Aikman. Did you expect as tough a negotiation with him as you had with Smith?

[A] Jones: I didn't know what to expect, but Troy's $50 million salary over eight years is less money than we would have had to pay him if he had been our franchise player. We would have had to pay him the average of what the top five quarterbacks were making for the length of his contract. That would have added up to considerably more than $50 million.

[Q] Playboy: Would you have done that?

[A] Jones: Probably. We think he's the best quarterback in the NFL.

[Q] Playboy: What makes him the best?

[A] Jones: Troy has tremendous skills. He has a quick release, a strong arm and he's smart as a whip. Apart from football, Troy's the type of individual you want to stake your future on. You don't concern yourself about Aikman going off the deep end. He's stable and solid in his thinking. Any other quarterback with Troy Aikman's skills might want our offense more directed to passing, but Troy isn't like that. He knows that having a balanced offense has taken us to two Super Bowls.

[Q] Playboy: Why didn't Aikman turn down your offer and become the team's franchise player?

[A] Jones: Well, Troy is acutely aware that while his dollars reflect the highest salary on the team, they impact on dollars available for other players on this team. Troy was in a position to overreach financially, and probably could have. But he didn't because he knows we can have a better team if we have more money available to pay other players. He's allowed us to be in that position.

[Q] Playboy: You're making Aikman sound like a Boy Scout. Didn't you offer him a sweetener up front to get him to sign?

[A] Jones: He got a bonus of $11 million. Troy is smart, and he certainly wants to make as much money as he can. But he isn't driven by the dollar. Troy is the kind of individual who might come to me and say he would be willing to make an adjustment if it could help us get a particular player. That shows how smart he is, because we believe he'll lead us to other Super Bowls. And in doing so, he gets to play in front of 138 million people in the U.S., which accounts for other tangible benefits that accrue to him. It's just a pleasure to know that a person who holds such a key position in the future of this franchise has his head on like that.

[Q] Playboy: Aikman has certainly made your job a lot easier.

[A] Jones: He has. When the dust settles and players have finished their movement under the league's new system, people are going to look at the Cowboys and say, "How in the world did the two-time defending world champions with the best talent in the league have the least disruption in terms of free agency?"

[Q] Playboy: Then again, they may not. Your free agent losses included All Pro linebacker Ken Norton, defensive tackles Tony Casillas and Jimmie Jones and offensive linemen Kevin Gogan and John Gesek. Do you really believe the Cowboys won't be weakened as a result of losing these players to free agency?

[A] Jones: We're going to be a more talented team. On the offensive side, we had the funds to retain all eight of our Pro Bowlers, including Troy, Emmitt and Michael Irvin. There's no way I would want anyone else at wide receiver but Michael. Our other wide receiver, Alvin Harper, really gives us nine Pro Bowlers on offense. A lot of people already think Harper's that good. I expect him to have a big year.

[Q] Playboy: Isn't that expecting a lot, considering that Harper wanted to be traded this year?

[A] Jones: Alvin needs to have the best year of his career because he plans to become a free agent next season. Players in the last year of their contracts may turn out to have the best years they've ever had.

[Q] Playboy: Won't your offense miss placekicker Eddie Murray, who also opted for free agency?

[A] Jones: Yes, but we don't want to depend on the field goal. We didn't ask Eddie Murray to win any games for us in the last ten seconds--we just asked him to kick field goals. We've never put a premium on a placekicker. In the economics of pro football, there's no room for high-priced kickers.

[Q] Playboy: Why do you think your defense--tenth-best in the NFL last season--will be strong this year?

[A] Jones: In my view, we have retained a better defensive line. We have young, talented players going into their third and fourth years. Last season I think we had the most players under 30 of any team in the NFL. They've played in a lot of big ball games--and they've won some of them.

We could improve with defensive end Charles Haley. He had a serious back injury last year. But he came back to play after an operation and played with a tremendous amount of pain. If Charles can play at full strength, there's no doubt in my mind that we'll go to another Super Bowl. All we've done since we traded for Charles is win Super Bowls.

Our challenge this season is the coaching changes. Switzer and Zampese could give us what we need to avoid becoming complacent. When we walk out on the field against New York, or any team we play this year, and beat them, we'll say, "We won a football game" rather than, "Hey, we're two-time world champions. We were supposed to win this game."

[Q] Playboy: Do you see the Cowboys winning the NFC East again?

[A] Jones: Yes, I do. Look at the New York Giants, at Washington, Philadelphia, the Phoenix Cardinals: What's happened to those teams? Even though they have brought in some good players, getting them to play with continuity is something else. We should win the NFC East again. And, usually, if you win the NFC East, you're in pretty good standing.

[Q] Playboy: Since the NFC Central Division never seems to live up to any postseason expectations, are we looking at a title game between Dallas and San Francisco?

[A] Jones: I give the 49ers a great deal of respect in terms of what they've done in the past few years. Their team will be one of the leading contenders to get to the Super Bowl. I rank the 49ers and us as two of the top three teams in the NFC.

[Q] Playboy: What's the third?

[A] Jones: I don't know. When's the last time you heard anyone put a third one in there?

[Q] Playboy: If the Cowboys do win a third straight Super Bowl, what will it mean to you personally?

[A] Jones: I've thought a lot about coming up short in 1994, and whether I was ready to deal with the blame regarding the coaching change. After weighing that, I know I'm ready to deal with it. But winning a third straight Super Bowl probably would be the most rewarding experience--apart from an immediate-family experience--that I would ever have. I can envision it feeling better than when we won the first Super Bowl.

[Q] Playboy: No team's ever won three Super Bowls in a row. What kind of odds do you give the Cowboys to do it?

[A] Jones: I give us a better shot at going to the Super Bowl than I have in either of our past two years. The fact that it would be our third in a row has no bearing on this. We may never have any better advantages than we have right now.

[Q] Playboy: Such as?

[A] Jones: We have a new coach who absolutely has come back from the dead, and there's no defining what his motivation will be. He will call on everything he's got. From our players' standpoint, Emmitt's already on record as saying, "We need to have one of two things happen: We can either go downhill or we can show that it's players who win these football games." That's Emmitt. Everyone here has something to prove this year. You can bet that I will pay a lot higher price than I paid before to get it done again this year. I can live with it if it doesn't happen--I made that decision back in March--but I have an almost fanatic desire to get back to the Super Bowl this year.

[Q] Playboy: Aside from that, what do you want for the Dallas Cowboys most of all?

[A] Jones: I can see us going to a level that transcends football and the NFL. Fifty years ago, the New York Yankees were a team that is still talked about as being the best sports organization ever--and that was at a time when we didn't have the visibility or the media we have today. Because of the enormous power of TV today, people wear Dallas Cowboys shirts in Nigeria, and we see Cowboys shirts in Saddam Hussein's territory, too. We see them all over the world.

[Cowboys safety] Bill Bates and I were in a restaurant in Mexico City last night, and it was like being in Dallas. After we were there for 15 or 20 minutes, everyone in the restaurant was talking about the Dallas Cowboys. They were asking for Cowboys' autographs and telling us about having watched the Super Bowl on TV in Mexico City. I want the league to expand and have teams based in Mexico City, Canada and Europe. I see that coming in the next ten or 15 years. When that happens, I can see the Cowboys having a chance to become the leading international sports team.

The Dallas Cowboys are already referred to as America's team. Well, I'd like us to become known as the world's team. Going into the 2000s, the Cowboys can lead the pack. And three straight Super Bowls would really fix that pistol.

"Switzer has the chance to coach arguably one of the greatest sports franchises there's ever been."