Playboy Interview: Mel Gibson

Mel Gibson is sitting in an editing bay in a small postproduction building in Hollywood, watching three computer monitors, all of which are running clips from his latest film, "Braveheart." Gibson is producing, directing and starring in this story of William Wallace, a 13th century Scottish revolutionary who made a hobby of killing Englishmen and wound up being hanged, drawn and quartered at the age of 35. It's an epic that runs nearly three hours and is filled with bloody battle scenes, a dash of romance and more than a few of the sorts of glib, throwaway lines that fans of Gibson's "Mad Max" and "Lethal Weapon" trilogies have come to expect.

The editors have put together a promotional clip for Gibson--shots of Mel and co-star Sophie Marceau, of Mel in battle, of pillaging, of rampaging, of just Mel looking into the camera. "There's too much of me," Gibson complains. "It slows it down." He wants to take out the close-ups that don't move the action along. He runs his fingers through his nearly shoulder-length, unwashed hair, pulling at it so it stands almost straight up. He rubs his beard, which is white around the chin, and sticks a finger into his mouth to massage a tooth. He looks like a wild man rather than the handsome romantic lead who so captivated his co-stars Sigourney Weaver in "The Year of Living Dangerously," Diane Keaton in "Mrs. Soffel," Jodie Foster in "Maverick," Michelle Pfeiffer in "Tequila Sunrise," Sissy Spacek in "The River," Goldie Hawn in "Bird on a Wire" and Jamie Lee Curtis in "Forever Young."

"Braveheart" is Gibson's 22nd picture (not counting Disney's animated "Pocahontas," for which he provides the voice of Captain John Smith). Over the past 18 years he has played sensitive romantics, tough, no-nonsense lawmen, glib rogues, con men and the bewildered son of a slain Danish king. He has that rare ability to work off actors such as Danny Glover, Anthony Hopkins, Kurt Russell and James Garner with the same enthusiasm and aplomb he has with his female co-stars. He's also not afraid to tackle roles made famous by actors such as Laurence Olivier ("Hamlet"), Garner ("Maverick") and Clark Gable and Marlon Brando ("The Bounty").

Gibson was born on January 3, 1956 in Peekskill, New York, the sixth child of Hutton and Anne Gibson. His father worked as a railroad brakeman for the New York Central Railroad until 1964, when he slipped on some oil and fell from a train, severely hurting his back. While awaiting the outcome of the resultant lawsuit he helped support his family by appearing on "Jeopardy," winning $21,000 in 1968. That same year, with the Vietnam war threatening the lives of young American draftees, Hutton Gibson decided to move his family (which included ten children, with an eleventh soon to be adopted) to Australia. Although Hutton served in World War Two, he was also an opinionated, religious man who had seriously considered the priesthood. His ultraconservative Catholic views were imprinted on his children, and he has written books defining his position.

Unlike his father, Mel wasn't a reader. Instead, he watched such TV shows as the "Mickey Mouse Club" and "Captain Kangaroo," and old Steve Reeves gladiator movies. As a high school student in Australia he was struck by the "reality and naturalism" of American films in the Seventies, including Sidney Lumet's "Serpico" and "Dog Day Afternoon" and Francis Coppola's first two "Godfather" films. At various times, he worked part-time in a supermarket, at Kentucky Fried Chicken and as an assistant juice mixer in an orange juice factory.

After high school he auditioned for the National Institute of Dramatic Arts in Sydney after an older sister filled out an application for him. When he was asked why he wanted to be an actor, he answered, "I've been goofing around all my life. I might as well get paid for it." While at NIDA he got a part as a surfer in a low-budget film called "Summer City," which he didn't take so seriously as his fencing lessons and the Shakespeare he was learning. He acted in dozens of plays, including "Waiting for Godot" and "Romeo and Juliet," in which he had the lead opposite Judy Davis. Off campus, he was a typical rowdy Aussie--he hung out at bars as much for the brawls as for the bourbon.

A week after one intense barroom beating, he auditioned for the part of Max Rockatansky in a futuristic film about a lone warrior cop and an unsavory motorcycle gang. Director George Miller saw in the beat-up face of the young Gibson the hero he was looking for. Although Gibson had only a minimal amount of dialogue, "Mad Max" brought him the kind of attention that Clint Eastwood got as the Man With No Name in his early spaghetti Westerns.

Gibson followed "Mad Max" with a surprisingly sensitive portrayal of a retarded handyman in "Tim," based on Colleen McCullough's novel, for which he won the 1979 Australian Film Institute's Best Actor award. Two years later he worked with Peter Weir and George Miller (again), two of Australia's most renowned directors, in films that firmly established him as both a romantic leading man and the prototype of a new breed of action-adventure hero. He won a second Australian Film Institute Best Actor award for Weir's "Gallipoli," an antiwar story of two Australian soldiers sent to fight in Turkey during World War One. And Miller's "The Road Warrior" perfected what he was attempting in "Mad Max." The two films established Gibson as an international movie star.

Between 1982 and 1985 he played Biff in Arthur Miller's "Death of a Salesman" at the Nimrod Theater in Sydney and made five pictures back-to-back: "The Year of Living Dangerously," "The Bounty," "The River," "Mrs. Soffel" and the third and last of the Mad Max films, "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome." He then took some time off to recharge and came back as a smartass undercover cop in "Lethal Weapon," his most commercially successful picture to date. Not all of his films were hits: "Tequila Sunrise" did moderate business, and "Bird on a Wire" and "Air America" bombed. His interpretation of "Hamlet" drew rave reviews but small crowds. In 1992 he appeared in "Forever Young," a schmaltzy romance about a man who is frozen and comes back to life 50 years later. That film and "Lethal Weapon 3" together grossed more than $200 million. In 1993 Gibson was named male star of the year by the National Association of Theater Owners. He made his directorial debut with "The Man Without a Face," in which he played a disfigured man with a hidden past.

Gibson is intensely private and has avoided the media as much as possible. His wit and sometimes raunchy humor have gotten him into trouble with feminists and gays, who have demonstrated against him for remarks he claims he made in jest. His sense of humor leans toward the outrageous--"somewhere between discomfort and just hysterical laughter," he says.

Gibson has been married to Robyn Moore, a former nurse's aide, for 15 years and has kept her and their six children (ages 5 to 14) out of the spotlight. Until recently they made their home on an 800-acre ranch in Australia, but decided to move to California because, Gibson claims, "they don't know what to make of me down there."

His company, Icon Productions, employs 15 people who actively develop numerous projects for Gibson to produce, direct and act in. The recent "Immortal Beloved," starring Gary Oldman as Beethoven, was an Icon production, as were five of Gibson's last six films ("Hamlet," "Forever Young," "The Man Without a Face," "Maverick" and "Braveheart").

To break through Gibson's protective wall, Playboy sent Contributing EditorLawrence Grobel (who last interviewed Jean-Claude Van Damme) to visit with the star at his offices on the Warner Bros. lot in Burbank. Grobel's report:

"When I got this assignment I called some of the actresses who have worked with Mel, and they all told me the same thing: He's handsome, easy to work with and has a weird sense of humor. In person, Gibson seemed like a nice, cheery fellow, a one-of-the-guys type who just happened to appear in a few big films and became a star who could command many millions for a couple months' work.

"For journalists, Gibson has long been a challenge, claiming that he wants to keep his life as private as possible. We arranged to talk for two hours the first day and two more the next. We wound up talking for eight hours over those two days and had another session after that. He kept saying how much he disliked being interviewed, but only once did he ask to go off the record.

"The result is a surprisingly no-holds-barred conversation with a man who has not revealed himself in quite this way before. Gibson is full of controversial opinions and loves raunchy humor. And despite the fact that such attitudes can get you into trouble in these politically correct times, he proved to be refreshingly fearless."

[Q] Playboy: Here are some of the things we've heard about you: You can be weired. Off-the-wall. Irreverent. Unpredictable. Insecure. Fearful. Inarticulate.

[A] Gibson: All of the above are true. And that's not the half of it.

[Q] Playboy: You mean we're going to get into some interesting stuff here?

[A] Gibson: We're all a strange bunch of different and contradictory bits. I'm no closer to explaining who I am than anyone else is.

[Q] Playboy: The director of Maverick and Lethal Weapon, Richard Donner, has said that you have a lot of anger and hostility and that underneath, you're a tough son of a bitch.

[A] Gibson: I don't know. I get pretty dark sometimes, pretty bleak. But that passes. I rarely lose my temper anymore.

[Q] Playboy: Which means you have lost it in the past.

[A] Gibson: You've got to get it out. I used to just hang on to it and then some little thing would set it off, which was stupid. You behave like an asshole when you lose it, and you feel like an asshole afterward. It's not healthy.

[Q] Playboy: Has it angered you over the years to be accused of promoting violence with the Lethal Weapon and Mad Max films?

[A] Gibson: I'm sorry, I don't go with the argument there. These things have been around forever. Just look at the Roman circus. They used to put people out there and have wild donkeys dance on them. Look at some of the Jacobean tragedies. And Shakespeare's Hamlet and Macbeth--these are fairly violent plays. No one has ever accused them of being responsible for our social evils. But, boy, if they're saying that about my earlier films, they ain't seen nothing yet.

[Q] Playboy: In other words, wait until they see Braveheart?

[A] Gibson: Oh yeah. It's rough. Some of it's very hard to watch. One battle is about 20 minutes long--we shot 100,000 feet of film. Before we shot it I watched every battle movie I could lay my hands on--and noticed they all get muddy and murky, but who cares? I wanted to show what it was like to be in the middle of a 13th century slugfest. It was pandemonium. People being whacked by mistake by their own guys, horses falling on people. I've got a scene where a horse just flies over the top of these guys' heads. I've never seen anything like it on film.

[Q] Playboy: What drew you to the story of William Wallace's attempt to drive the British out of Scotland?

[A] Gibson: I read the script in one sitting. I thought, Oh Jesus, I'm too old to do this. I hemmed and hawed and walked around it, but I just couldn't forget it, it was so dynamic. Wallace's legend is alive and well in Scotland. A lot of it is amazing shit. Whether it's true or not I don't know, but it certainly is colorful. He was kind of a monster--his main hobby was killing Englishmen. He just hated them. He started knocking 'em off when he was 27. They caught him, threw him in jail and tried to starve him to death. He was in a prison dungeon for two months without food. He apparently found God in jail and became very religious. When they thought he was dead they threw him out into the moat. A woman found him and nursed him back to health on her breast milk.

[Q] Playboy: That should make for an interesting scene in the film.

[A] Gibson: I would have liked to have filmed that, but it's not in there. But what is there is totally uncompromising: The story is uncompromising, and the way I filmed it is uncompromising. The camera is always moving. I didn't want anything to stand still. It's about as subtle as a sledgehammer in your face.

[Q] Playboy: Wallace was not only hanged, but also drawn and quartered. Will that be shown?

[A] Gibson: Not graphically. For a character to be dispatched in such a manner is pretty hard for an American audience, which prefers hearts and flowers. Americans don't like to see something that isn't a happy, happy, happy ending. Which is OK. The challenge here was to actually have someone hanged, drawn and quartered and still have it be beautiful and uplifting.

[Q] Playboy: Your publicist has compared the film to Ben-Hur. How does that sit with you?

[A] Gibson: He has to--he's being paid. I have heard it compared to David Lean's work.

[Q] Playboy:Lawrence of Arabia?

[A] Gibson: You know, it's that story. History repeats itself. It's that person who rises up and is the head of an army that follows him into hideous places, and he comes out with something.

[Q] Playboy:Wallace of Scotland?

[A] Gibson:Mad Mac [laughs].

[Q] Playboy: How does this one compare with Hamlet, which you've said was the hardest thing you'd ever done?

[A] Gibson: This was harder. It physically kicked the shit out of me. Mentally, too. It's also some of the best acting work I've ever done because it was totally thrown away. That's all I had the time and energy to do.

[Q] Playboy: You mean because you were directing and producing as well as acting?

[A] Gibson: Right. I found that I didn't indulge myself at all. It's nice to realize you don't have to.

[Q] Playboy: Do you like wearing so many different hats?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. Not so much from a business standpoint--I'm somewhat of a fiscal imbecile. But there's a lot of pleasure in the creative things, and the fact that you can make them happen.

[Q] Playboy: How many projects does your company, Icon Productions, have in development right now?

[A] Gibson: Quite a few, maybe 16.

[Q] Playboy: Do you plan to produce all your own pictures?

[A] Gibson: That would be ideal. But I was sent something from one of the studios the other day that somebody else is directing and producing. If I like it, I'll just take my five bucks and do it.

[Q] Playboy: Which is what you did as the voice of John Smith in Pocahontas.

[A] Gibson: Yeah. I read something about Disney having real problems with people saying it's not historically accurate. I'm thinking, Historically accurate? My God, there's a fucking raccoon that talks in this. What do they want?

[Q] Playboy: Did it take much to persuade you to do it?

[A] Gibson: Not really, I just felt like it. There were a couple of songs in which I yodeled a bit.

[Q] Playboy: Did you do it for your kids?

[A] Gibson: That's basically it.

[Q] Playboy: Did you get a decent deal? Robin Williams felt screwed by Disney after he did the genie's voice in Aladdin.

[A] Gibson: They screw everybody. You've got to know that going in. I'm not going to quibble about bucks. I never do. I wouldn't say they screwed me, but I knew what I was getting into.

[Q] Playboy: Does the character look anything like you?

[A] Gibson: I've seen pictures of him. He's a bit more angular and younger than I am. More statuesque. What they do is put a video camera on you while you're doing your dialogue. They get your facial expressions and start playing with those. They're very clever.

[Q] Playboy: You're supposed to be clever as a mimic and impressionist.

[A] Gibson: Yeah, I can do anyone.

[Q] Playboy: Anthony Hopkins told us he can, too.

[A] Gibson: He's fucking funny. His imitations of voices are really quite wonderful. I can do him, but he doesn't know it.

[Q] Playboy: Since you acted together in The Bounty, he probably does you as well.

[A] Gibson: I don't know if he deems me worthy to do.

[Q] Playboy: At that time, 11 years ago, he probably didn't. He said he felt you were in danger of blowing it unless you started taking care of yourself. Were you pretty out of control then?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, I was wacko. We were out there in the trees, in the middle of a volcano, in the middle of French Polynesia, with bad food and an endless supply of alcohol--a bunch of randy young men going to Club Med. We'd get smashed and go on the Club Med stage and pull down our pants.

[Q] Playboy: That must have gone over big.

[A] Gibson: You have to realize that they've got about 180 bouncers, Polynesian dudes with shoulders four ax handles across, who are there to beat the shit out of you.

[Q] Playboy: Wasn't that the time you got into a fight in a bar and they had to shoot only one side of your face because the other was badly bruised?

[A] Gibson: That was it. It was really stupid. I have a self-destructive tendency.

[Q] Playboy: Did you also get a tattoo on your ass?

[A] Gibson: I was going to, then I just said, "Dumb idea. I'll never be able to show my ass again."

[Q] Playboy: What kind of tattoo would you have gotten?

[Q] Playboy: One of those Polynesian circular jobs. The guy was going to do it the old-fashioned way--hammer it in. No electricity necessary.

My father had told me about some friends of his on leave during World War Two who went to Hawaii, got drunk and got tattooed in the same parlor. They all got leprosy. I don't know whether that was an urban myth, a French Polynesian myth, an island myth, or a hit-and-myth.

[Q] Playboy: We were warned about your puns. Didn't you get to meet Laurence Olivier during The Bounty?

[A] Gibson: I met him, though I did not have any scenes with him. He did that backhanded compliment thing: very pleasant, shook hands, "Where are you from?" I said, "Australia." He said, "Ah, colonial." Just . . . a little thing.

[Q] Playboy: He probably would have said the same thing if you'd said the U.S. Though drinking and drunken behavior are perhaps more closely associated with Australia.

[A] Gibson: Yeah, it's a whole culture in Australia. Drinking is a cultural pastime, and it's required. So you indulge and imbibe. Misbehaving is fun.

[Q] Playboy: Until you're looking at fists in your face.

[A] Gibson: One time I got a bad thrashing. I was at a party and three dudes worked me over severely. I woke up in the bloody hospital with head stitches, a busted nose, my jaw off the hook, peeing blood. I was a fucking mess.

[Q] Playboy: Why did they do it?

[A] Gibson: I just didn't get on with them. I didn't even know who they were. I was having an altercation with one guy who was not digging me and whom I wasn't digging. Then, you know how you hear that voice saying, "Hey! What are you doing?" and all you see are knuckles? Well, some guy to my side just hauled off and cracked me one. Drove me right into the wall, and then he followed up with three more, bang, bang, bang! My lip was stuck on my bottom teeth. I spat out a great big hunk of meat and I could see my nose growing in front of my eyes. I got up and said, "What the fuck did you do that for?" He said, "Sorry about that, mate." I thought, Jesus, what an asshole. So I went for him. I got him with a good one right in his nose, but I didn't see much after that. It was lights out. Three guys on me like fucking crazy.

[Q] Playboy: Did you learn anything from that experience?

[A] Gibson: That that's never going to happen to me again. If anybody even looks at me sideways, I'm cracking first. Just devastate him--and don't get him once, get him a few times. Make sure he can't get up and do anything to me.

[Q] Playboy: Wasn't that beating just before you auditioned for Mad Max?

[A] Gibson: The audition was a week later. I was still a mess.

[Q] Playboy: It probably helped you get the part. Of the three Mad Max films, which is your favorite?

[A] Gibson:I like the second one, The Road Warrior. It's a great film. It still holds up because it's so basic. It was the early Clint Eastwood principle of the Man With No Name. Didn't require any dialogue. Let the film do the talking. It's about energy--it didn't spare anyone: people flying under wheels, a girl gets it, a dog gets it, everybody gets it. It was the first Mad Max but done better. The third one didn't work at all.

[Q] Playboy: Do you consider those films violent or just comical?

[A] Gibson: I laughed with them. They're straight out of a Chuck Jones cartoon. The kid with the boomerang that chopped off people's fingers, I thought that was very funny. It reminded me of one of those Warner Bros. cartoons.

[Q] Playboy: Besides Road Warrior you made two films that came out in 1981. One, Gallipoli, was highly praised, and the other, Attack Force Z, was something you'd probably like to forget.

[A] Gibson:Gallipoli was a good film, and Peter Weir is a great director, like George Miller. I kicked off my career working with two of the world's greatest directors from home. How come those guys were there? Of course, at the time I didn't know who they were, but I realized pretty quickly that they were special. There's something mystical about the way that Weir achieves a mood, an ambience, atmosphere.

[Q] Playboy: Was there anything mystical about Attack Force Z?

[A] Gibson: That's where I ate dog and something else very strange. I did that one for the money. It was a great six-month holiday in Taipei.

[Q] Playboy: What kind of dog did you eat?

[A] Gibson: It was a black dog. I asked if there was any reason it was black and apparently black dogs are preferred. It was illegal. It wasn't a puppy, but it wasn't an old dog, either. And it was delicious. Tasted like rabbit.

[Q] Playboy: What was the other strange thing you ate?

[A] Gibson: After a rugged night, a guy took us to a Japanese restaurant that he owned. He was a big movie star in Taipei and he owned restaurants and brothels. We drank this stuff called Green Bamboo Leaf liquor and got absolutely assholed. It was 130 proof, like paint remover, man. The next morning I had a headache you couldn't believe, so he took me to this marketplace and got me a bowl of soup. It was a slightly murky broth with what looked like the endocrine glands and digestive tract of a small animal, the intact esophagus, liver, lungs, pancreas, intestines and adrenal glands. I never knew what it was, but it was delicious. I ate it all and felt great afterward. They know something, the Chinese.

[Q] Playboy: Did that experience slow you down?

[A] Gibson: Nah, are you kidding? I had a long career ahead of me. I got in some law trouble once--got arrested for driving real drunk. It was a humiliating experience.

[Q] Playboy: This was in Toronto, wasn't it? When you ran a red light and hit another car during the making of Mrs. Soffel?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, the police dragged me in. They put me in the back of their truck. I couldn't get out No door handles on the inside. It was a horrible feeling. I was kicking the grille, yelling and screaming, "Let me the fuck out of here, you motherfuckers." I used every foul name I could think of. This guy turned around and looked at me dead calm and said, "Shut the fuck up or I'll beat the shit out of you." He was like 6'4" and I could see me getting my head knocked off. I was deeply upset. Your freedom is gone, you're in this cage, you can't believe these guys are dragging you off. I got fingerprinted.

[Q] Playboy: And after they found out who you were, did you spend the night?

[A] Gibson: No, they gave me a lift home.

[Q] Playboy: What did you think of your costar, Diane Keaton?

[A] Gibson: She was generous and warm, but I never really got to know her. She used to ask me to tell her stories between shots. I told her a really disgusting one with the horrific title of Shit Blisters. She sat across the table going, "That's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard." But I think she thought it was funny. It came to me from someone else, so I don't know whether it's true or not.

[Q] Playboy: Want to tell us the story?

[A] Gibson: It was a sexual-deviant thing with people who pushed the envelope as far as sexual practices went. it's beyond crapping on glass-top tables or anything like that. They would get hypodermics full of shit and pump a few grams under their skin. The real fun happened a week later for the coming-out party when these welts would grow and then fester. That's it in a nutshell. I don't want to get into it too much, but apparently there was a whole cult of people over in Helsinki or someplace and they used to indulge in these practices.

[Q] Playboy: You sound like you believe this actually happened.

[A] Gibson: I don't know--it's feasible. Or fecesable.

[Q] Playboy: Thanks for that, Mel. Let's move on. What do you think when you hear about your co-stars, like Keaton or Sigourney Weaver, calling you one of the handsomest men they've seen?

[A] Gibson: Hey, they don't tell me that stuff!

[Q] Playboy: But you read about it all the time, your good looks, the women who go nuts over you. How do you handle the groupies or the personal letters you must get?

[A] Gibson: Anything like that you have to look at with suspicion. Invitations scribbled on napkins or cards--from time to time that happens, and you might think, boy, it's everybody's dream. But it's not. It's scary. Because you don't know who the hell they are. And before you became famous that never happened. Also, it doesn't happen all the time. They're not exactly jumping out of the woodwork. It probably happens to Al Pacino more than me. I come to work, I go home. Nothing happens on the freeway, nobody throws herself in front of my bumper.

[Q] Playboy: But when someone does get (continued on page 68)Mel Gibson(continued from page 56)) your attention, are you tempted?

[A] Gibson: Everyone is--isn't that the human condition? But all those things have a price.

[Q] Playboy: And what about the price for celebrity in general?

[A] Gibson: Your life changes. I don't know if it's that easy to explain the phenomenon of celebrity. It's something you have to learn to live with. The by-products of stardom can spoil you. It has aspects that are not pleasant. I can't be like I was anymore. There's no need to beat myself up over it because I've been through that process. What happened to me was that I was pissed off that frame wasn't what it should have been. It's like a lot of nastiness is associated with it. There are a lot of nasty people, and then there's the dishonesty. So you have to become very protective in the way you view things. You have to change your whole plan of existence.

[Q] Playboy: What other problems did becoming famous cause you?

[A] Gibson: There are people who try to grab on and go through the gate with you, because they can't do it themselves. You find a lot of people interacting or doing things for not very good reasons. So you have to deal with assholes. Not everybody's an asshole, though sometimes you wonder.

[Q] Playboy: How uncomfortable does it get for you?

[A] Gibson: There was an article in the Los Angeles Times telling where my kids go to school. That makes me very nervous. That makes you want to ask the reporter what his head's made of.

[Q] Playboy: We can understand why that makes you angry.

[A] Gibson: Newspapers make me mad because they lie. About everything. When I watch news programs I just get livid, because they're not fair. They don't tell the truth about anything.

[Q] Playboy: Is the European press more scandalous than the American press?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. The British press is heinous. They love their smut. The American pres has a category for it on the supermarket shelf. But the British press, their regular newspaper are like that. You don't know what's going on in the country, but you know who's fucking who. Whether it's true or not is another thing. And then there's the 11 o'clock news there, which tells you untruths. It drives me crazy. It's like the O.J. Simpson thing--I can't watch it. It's disgusting. And that makes me mad. It's 1984. "Let's all put up a figure of hatred. There's the villain." And they vent all their anger and their rage on O.J.

[Q] Playboy: There may already be a verdict by the time this interview appears, but without knowing what that might be, do you have an opinion of what will happen to O.J.?

[A] Gibson: I think they'll put him in jail for a long time. I don't think he'll get off. It's been great for the politicians and the president, because it's taken the heat off them. I find it disgusting. The main winners here are the people who have other agendas that they don't want to be too public about. Whitewater or whatever. It's all been brushed aside because this is the biggest thing.

[Q] Playboy: Well, let's put the spotlight on you.

[A] Gibson: I hate talking about me and what I believe. I always find it to be painful. It's like making a large target out of yourself. You make yourself very vulnerable.

[Q] Playboy: Has this been painful so far?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. I'm just feeling like, Why am I saying all this stuff? One always tries to maintain some sense of mystery. That's why these damn things are so painful, because you are giving a little more away. This is not a natural situation.

[Q] Playboy: Are you sorry that you're doing this?

[A] Gibson: I probably will be when I read it. I get real weird afterward. I'll probably drop out someplace and hide.

[Q] Playboy: Have you ever considered writing a book to get your story out the way you want it?

[A] Gibson: No, other people do them for me. And they just make it up. One of them, Jesus Christ! I have to pray for the guy who did it so I don't kill him. Because the motherfucker hasn't got any balls. He's a pussy and I hope I never meet him, because I'd tear his fucking face right off! He's one of those tabloid-press low-life scumbags from England who's making a buck. There's a lot of money to be made in unauthorized biographies.

[Q] Playboy: Which is why they get written.

[A] Gibson: But, you know, when you read this one you say, "My God, you know what he's done? He's written a book about himself." That's what he did. Then I started to feel sorry for him.

[Q] Playboy: But not sorry enough to forgive him if you meet him?

[A] Gibson: I don't think God will put him in my path. He deserves death. He attacked me at an elemental level. He attacked my wife, my family, my father, my whole being. He's lucky he's still walking. He's getting to you in the most underhanded, nasty way, threatening everything you have, everything you are, saying that you're a worthless piece of shit. And that the people who gave birth to you are scumbags and really nasty people. And everyone you've ever met or touched you trampled on and fucked over. And that you're weird and warped and it's like you are fucking Hitler. I'm Hitler and my dad is Mussolini!

[Q] Playboy: Did your dad read the book?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, he did.

[Q] Playboy: What did he say?

[A] Gibson: He doesn't give a hoot. It bugs the shit out of me, but it doesn't bother him.

[Q] Playboy: Your dad's an unusual man, isn't he?

[A] Gibson: He's just a regular guy who worked long hours, supported a big family and kept us all in shoes and food.

[Q] Playboy: That's a pretty brief summation of a man who went from working on a railroad to winning on Jeopardy to moving his family to Australia. What else can you tell us about him?

[A] Gibson: He didn't get to know his mother because she was dead by the time he was two. He lived through the Depression with a father who was dying and a brother who was a fuckup. Goes off to Guadalcanal in World War Two, gets the Purple Heart for something--he doesn't talk about it much. In the meantime, he goes to a seminary because he's very spiritual. Comes back, gets married, has children. Writes books about canon law and Catholicism.

[Q] Playboy: Have you read them?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. He is pretty sound canonically and theologically. He's a bookish guy. Uses words I've never heard of.

[Q] Playboy: What does he have to do with the Alliance for Catholic Tradition, which one magazine called "an extreme conservative Catholic splinter group"?

[A] Gibson: He started it. Some people say it's extreme, but it emphasizes what the institution was and where it's going. Everything he was taught to believe was taken from him in the Sixties with this renewal Vatican Council. The whole institution became unrecognizable to him, so he writes about it.

[Q] Playboy: Is it true he took your family to Australia during the height of the Vietnam was because he didn't (continued on page 136)Mel Gibson(continued from page 68) want your older brothers to get drafted?

[A] Gibson: I don't know, but I heard him say at one time, "They're not getting any of my kids."

[Q] Playboy: Were your parents especially strong disciplinarians?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, they liked to run a pretty tight ship. They didn't let us get away with anything. But it wasn't like we had to shut up at mealtime. It was just kind of nutty.

[Q] Playboy: Didn't your father once get so angry at your older brother and sister that he knocked their heads together?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. He told them they were not allowed to talk to each other for six months, and if he ever saw them even looking at each other he would beat the shit out of them. And they didn't communicate at all for a real long time. When they finally did, they were the best of friends. It worked.

[Q] Playboy: Did you get into much trouble?

[A] Gibson: I used to break the law a bit. I was a good criminal as a child. I never got caught. And I did kid stuff, like borrow the family car.

[Q] Playboy: How did you do that without getting caught, since you had so many people in your family?

[A] Gibson: I did it at one A.M.

[Q] Playboy: Didn't you also once staple your sister's head?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. She was sitting there and it was just one of those compulsions. It was a big stapler, too. She screamed her head off and I was in serious trouble. I didn't stick around, but they hunted me down and I got a whacking.

[Q] Playboy: Was there a lot of fighting among you and your brothers?

[A] Gibson: Oh, there was plenty of fighting. You don't grow up in a crowd like that and not punch one another out all the time. I've got five brothers, and three of them are within two years of me. We'd pound the shit out of one another. Especially as teenagers. There were twin brothers a year younger than me. I used to wonder: I'm older, why are there two of them? Why are they bigger than me? They would stick together and I'd have to find ways to distract them. I remember one of them actually picked me up and threw me out of his room. It was humiliating. I had to get even. So I knocked on his door, and when he answered it, lights out.

[Q] Playboy: You knocked him out?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. That's when I was 15, 16. We'd just about kill one another. Very satisfying.

[Q] Playboy: Were things more peaceful at the all-boys Catholic school you attended in Australia?

[A] Gibson: No. I got whacked around for smoking, fighting, not following their stupid rules. I had a rough time. I'm not much of a conformist. I was known for being a bit of a clown. I remember my dad got me aside and said, "Just remember, everybody likes a clown, but nobody pays him." I've often been tempted to call him and say, "Remember how you told me . . .?" "Yeah?" "Yes, they do."

[Q] Playboy: Wasn't it one of your sisters who decided your career for you when she applied to Sydney's National Institute of Dramatic Arts on your behalf?

[A] Gibson: That was Mary. I was wandering around without a purpose, so she pointed my nose in this direction. I thought, What the hell else am I going to do? There really wasn't much I wanted to do. And I had never done anything like acting before. The first time I had to go onstage I was physically ill and I couldn't stand up. My legs wouldn't support me. I had to do it sitting down. It was blind terror.

[Q] Playboy: What made you go back a second time?

[A] Gibson: I just wondered, What the hell could knock the shit out of you like that? The next night it didn't happen. I found it very liberating.

[Q] Playboy: How often do you all get together as a family?

[A] Gibson: The last time we got together was for my mother's funeral. It was great.

[Q] Playboy: That was about five years ago. What did she die of?

[A] Gibson: Just her heart. She was in her late 60s.

[Q] Playboy: How did it affect everybody?

[A] Gibson: They were all stunned. She was the mortar and the bricks. She held everything together.

[Q] Playboy: Are you an emotional family?

[A] Gibson: Not overly. And not overly expressive, either.

[Q] Playboy: Do you believe in an afterlife, and that you'll see her there?

[A] Gibson: Absolutely. There's just no explanation. There has to be an afterlife. Otherwise where is the evening-out process? There has to be an afterlife because Hitler and I both walked the planet and I'm not going to the same place as Hitler. Or Pol Pot.

[Q] Playboy: Is there a hell?

[A] Gibson: Absolutely.

[Q] Playboy: What's your image of the devil?

[A] Gibson: The beast with eight tongues and four horns and fire and brimstone. Probably worse than anything we can imagine, as paradise is probably better than anything we can imagine.

[Q] Playboy: Do you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution or that God created man in his image?

[A] Gibson: The latter.

[Q] Playboy: So you can't accept that we descended from monkeys and apes?

[A] Gibson: No, I think it's bullshit. If it isn't, why are they still around? How come apes aren't people yet? It's a nice theory, but I can't swallow it. There's a big credibility gap. The carbon dating thing that tells you how long something's been around, how accurate is that, really? I've got one of Darwin's books at home and some of that stuff is pretty damn funny. Some of his stuff is true, like that the giraffe has a long neck so it can reach the leaves. But I just don't think you can swallow the whole piece.

[Q] Playboy: We take it that you're not particularly broad-minded when it comes to issues such as celibacy, abortion, birth control--

[A] Gibson: People always focus on stuff like that. Those aren't issues. Those are unquestionable. You don't even argue those points.

[Q] Playboy: You don't?

[A] Gibson: No.

[Q] Playboy: What about allowing women to be priests?

[A] Gibson: No.

[Q] Playboy: Why not?

[A] Gibson: I'll get kicked around for saying it, but men and women are just different. They're not equal. The same way that you and I are not equal.

[Q] Playboy: That's true. You have more money.

[A] Gibson: You might be more intelligent, or you might have a bigger dick. Whatever it is, nobody's equal. And men and women are not equal. I have tremendous respect for women. I love them. I don't know why they want to step down. Women in my family are the center of things. All good things emanate from them. The guys usually mess up.

[Q] Playboy: That's quite a generalization.

[A] Gibson: Women are just different. Their sensibilities are different.

[Q] Playboy: Any examples?

[A] Gibson: I had a female business partner once. Didn't work.

[Q] Playboy: Why not?

[A] Gibson: She was a cunt.

[Q] Playboy: And the feminists dare to put you down!

[A] Gibson: Feminists don't like me, and I don't like them. I don't get their point. I don't know why feminists have it out for me, but that's their problem, not mine.

[Q] Playboy: What did you so dislike about your former business partner?

[A] Gibson: She was more vicious than any guy in business I've ever seen. She thought she needed to overcompensate for the fact that she was a woman. Which is just bullshit. It's like unbelievable ferocity and unreasonableness. Then, when you got to her reason, she'd pull the woman thing on you. She wasn't fair. They don't play fair.

[Q] Playboy: All women, or just this woman?

[A] Gibson: It happens a lot. They're not coming from the same place at all. There are certain things men will never understand about them. We'll never get it. And you're supposed to be nice to them. Because they can hurt you. It's like that joke about the guy who bedded three women: Lorena Bobbitt, Tonya Harding and Hillary Clinton. He woke up with no penis, his kneecaps bashed in and no health insurance.

[Q] Playboy: Does your wife share any of your beliefs?

[A] Gibson: No.

[Q] Playboy: Does she think that you're a Neanderthal?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, but she likes it that way.

[Q] Playboy: Maybe she was just too young to know any better when she met you.

[A] Gibson: I guess I was a good catch.

[Q] Playboy: Your wife has kept a low profile. Where did you meet?

[A] Gibson: I was in South Australia for my first assignment in a theater company. I was one of the boarders in a house where she lived.

[Q] Playboy: Was it love at first sight?

[A] Gibson: No, it wasn't until a year later. She had a boyfriend.

[Q] Playboy: So how did it happen?

[A] Gibson: I don't know if I want to talk about it. I don't know if she's feel good about that either.

[Q] Playboy: Any ideas on what makes a marriage work?

[A] Gibson: Don't talk about your wife during interviews [laughs].

[Q] Playboy: What do you think of when you think about love?

[A] Gibson: Sacrifice.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel about love scenes in your films?

[A] Gibson: Depends. It's like being ushered into a room with a stranger and being told, "Here, take off your clothes and swap some spit." It's uncomfortable. Especially with cameras watching you. Think about it--would you do it?

[Q] Playboy: If it were Michelle Pfeiffer or Sigourney Weaver or Jodie Foster--

[A] Gibson: It's still pretty weird. What can I tell you?

[Q] Playboy: Tell us about what it was like working with Michelle Pfeiffer, Sigourney Weaver and Jodie Foster. You played Scrabble with Pfeiffer in Tequila Sunrise. How good was she?

[A] Gibson: Real good.

[Q] Playboy: She beat you?

[A] Gibson: More often than not.

[Q] Playboy: And you played poker with Foster in Maverick.

[A] Gibson: Jodie's a sweet person. I really love her. And she's a real careful player. Holds her cards tight before she puts her quarter out there.

[Q] Playboy: What did you think of The Year of Living Dangerously with Sigourney Weaver?

[A] Gibson: It wasn't the greatest story, but it had that ability as a film to hold you and make you watch it.

[Q] Playboy: Wasn't there some trouble shooting that film in Manila, where people started throwing stones and making death threats?

[A] Gibson: The film unit received death threats from some Islamic group or something because they knew we were doing a story about President Sukarno and Indonesia. I thought it was kind of exciting: death threats. Then, before we knew it, we got whisked out of the country. It wasn't worth it, it was just a film. We shot most of it in Sydney.

[Q] Playboy: Linda Hunt, who won an Oscar for her performance, said that you're not there before a scene, that you're deliberately uninvolved and absent. She said it was a macho thing.

[A] Gibson: Yeah? It's not a macho thing at all. It's just the way I work. I've always worked like that.

[Q] Playboy: She also said that when you get in front of the camera your attention is forceful and total, that you control the camera the way the young Brando did, marshaling your energy.

[A] Gibson: That's very generous of her. I never looked at it as that complicated. I enjoy the work situation tremendously. I get on with the crew, I hang out on the set, I don't hide in a trailer.

[Q] Playboy: While we're on comparisons, Mark Rydell, who directed The River, said that you have the roughness of a Steve McQueen or a Paul Newman and the sensitivity of a Monty Clift.

[A] Gibson: Thanks, Mark. Steve McQueen. Nobody handles props like Steve did. Man, that guy was good with a piece of equipment--the fire stuff, the cars, the guns. He knew exactly what his power was and he used it really well.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel when you're compared to such people?

[A] Gibson: Comparisons like that are flattering. In reality, people are always trying to find a way to pigeonhole you. In fact, I'm nothing like any of them. I'll never be able to do what they did, and I hope I've got my own territory that no one else can poach.

[Q] Playboy: Were you frustrated playing Hamlet, which you said should have been done onstage and not filmed?

[A] Gibson: I'd like to do Hamlet onstage because I've never done it in sequence. I've done it only in pieces, with the first part last and the last part first, the last third of the soliloquy filmed a month before the first two thirds. It wasn't a good experience because it was so disjointed. Nor was I happy with the result, because there's no conclusion that you can really come to. There's no answer to it. It's more elusive than you think it is. The whole play is about asking questions, not about getting answers. Shakespeare wrote it during a crisis in his life and he was questioning everything.

[Q] Playboy: Do you see Hamlet as mad?

[A] Gibson: Yes, I think so.

[Q] Playboy: And how did you feel about Franco Zeffirelli's direction?

[A] Gibson: I've never actually been honest about what I think of Zeffirelli, ever.

[Q] Playboy: Why not?

[A] Gibson: Because it wouldn't do any good. I don't really want to dump on poor Franco. He's got his problems, the poor bastard.

[Q] Playboy: Are there any other Shakespeare plays you might like to do?

[A] Gibson: I've always liked Othello.

[Q] Playboy: To play Othello or Iago?

[A] Gibson: Iago. It's the best part.

[Q] Playboy: What about King Lear?

[A] Gibson: Lear annoys me. He pisses me off. He's a real old fart. That's being judgmental about a character, which Stanislavsky tells us we're not supposed to do. But hey, King Lear sucks.

[Q] Playboy: You can be fairly critical. And you've been on the receiving end of some pointed criticism yourself. The reviews for Air America, for instance, were very harsh.

[A] Gibson: That was given the distinction by one critic of being one of the ten worst films of the decade, which I think is bullshit. It's better than that. It isn't a perfect film. A lot of things aren't right with it, but it's OK.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel about another critical bomb, Bird on a Wire, which you did with Goldie Hawn?

[A] Gibson: Not one of my favorites. It's a mindless bit of stuff. There's something very unfunny about it, like a puzzle that doesn't fit together.

[Q] Playboy: You've acted with Goldie, and with her boyfriend, Kurt Russell, in Tequila Sunrise--

[A] Gibson: Which I liked. It had that Robert Towne structure that turned a molehill into a mountain. One of the most interesting evenings I ever had was when I was working on Hamlet in London and Kurt and Goldie rolled in while my mom and dad were there. They got to talking about religion. Kurt was yelling and chiming in loudly, Goldie was there, my mother was going, "Red, please calm down" to my father. I just sat back and watched the fireworks fly.

[Q] Playboy: Kurt is opinionated and loves a heated political discussion. Do you ever get involved with politics?

[A] Gibson: I once was involved with politics in Australia. I stuck my proboscis into the arena, trying to get someone elected to a local seat. Because I was me, I got a lot of attention. It was amazing. It opened my eyes to something that was really scary. When you rip the top off the scab and look at the shit underneath, it's frightening. I was really fucking cynical when I walked away from that.

[Q] Playboy: Your man lost?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, but not by much. It was so nasty, so vicious. There's nothing people won't do to fuck you over for their own ends. I'm talking right up to the prime minister at the time, Bob Hawke. What an asshole. He fucking made a personal attack on me.

[Q] Playboy: Why?

[A] Gibson: Because I said something that was kind of true and it really bothered him. It scared him. He came down to the country town where I lived, went to the newspaper and dumped shit on me. This is the prime minister of the country.

[Q] Playboy: What did he say about you?

[A] Gibson: "He is a fine fellow, but he should stick to acting. Let the people who know about government run the country." Like, wait a minute, hang on, whoa! That's us, it's our country, we've elected you to represent our interests.

[Q] Playboy: Did you respond?

[A] Gibson: Fuck yes, ferociously. I was so mad I went to the same reporter he talked with and I dumped on him the next day. I acquitted myself very well and made him look pretty crummy. But as a result that reporter was moved to a cushy job in Canberra within a week.

[Q] Playboy: Is Australian politics any different from politics in other countries?

[A] Gibson: I travel a lot, so I can look at similar events all around the world and say there's something funny going on here. It's really fucking corrupt and horrible. And it drives me crazy.

[Q] Playboy: Do you think there's any place that's not corrupt?

[A] Gibson: No, there isn't. I guess we all know that. It's when you finally wake up to the horror and the nastiness of it.

[Q] Playboy: Hawke is no longer prime minister of Australia.

[A] Gibson: No, Paul Keating is the current idiot over there.

[Q] Playboy: Maybe it's a good thing you never became an Australian citizen.

[A] Gibson: There was no reason to get naturalized. I wouldn't live there again.

[Q] Playboy: Don't you have an 800-acre ranch there?

[A] Gibson: I do. But they don't know what to do with me down there. I'm something of a curiosity, OK? It's, you know, the guy who wasn't born there. But I lived there, I was educated there, had my formative years there--puberty, high school, university, career choices, vocational stuff. That's where I come from. That's where I started to make good and then I came over here and made good here. I found it was more lucrative and there was a greater artistic pool over here. Then it's like, "Oh, look at that fellow. He thinks he's pretty good now." So they start to tear you down a bit. It's OK, I can handle it, I'm a big boy. They have cycles of building you back up and then tearing you down again. It's happening now and I don't know why. Somebody's got an ax to grind. So you go back there and every time you fart a crew comes down and starts looking through your windows. So why the fuck should I go back?

[Q] Playboy: None of this happens in Los Angeles?

[A] Gibson: The same thing happens here, but it's just by virtue of the number of people in this country that it's easier. It's just as corrupt. I'm terribly cynical about politics and politicians. I see the same trends here that I saw overseas.

[Q] Playboy: How do you feel about Bill Clinton?

[A] Gibson: The guy who's in charge isn't going to be the front man, ever. If I were going to be calling the shots I wouldn't make an appearance. Would you? You'd end up losing your head. It happens all the time. All those monarchs. If he's the leader, he's getting shafted. What's keeping him in there? Why would you stay for that kind of abuse? Except that he has to stay for some reason. He was meant to be the president 30 years ago, if you ask me.

[Q] Playboy: He was just 18 then.

[A] Gibson: Somebody knew than that he would be president now.

[Q] Playboy: You really believe that?

[A] Gibson: I really believe that. He was a Rhodes scholar, right? Just like Bob Hawke. Do you know what a Rhodes scholar is? Cecil Rhodes established the Rhodes scholarship for those young men and women who want to strive for a new world order. Have you heard that before? George Bush? CIA? Really, it's Marxism, but it just doesn't want to call itself that. Karl had the right idea, but he was too forward about saying what it was. Get power but don't admit to it. Do it by stealth. There's a whole trend of Rhodes scholars who will be politicians around the world.

[Q] Playboy: This certainly sounds like a paranoid sense of world history. You must be quite an assassination buff.

[A] Gibson: Oh, fuck. A lot of those guys pulled a boner. There's something to do with the Federal Reserve that Lincoln did, Kennedy did and Reagan tried. I can't remember what it was, my dad told me about it. Everyone who did this particular thing that would have fixed the economy got undone. Anyway, I'll end up dead if I keep talking shit.

[Q] Playboy: No one can accuse you of keeping your big mouth shut.

[A] Gibson: I used to get into trouble because I had a really big trap. I'd say things to people and they'd take offense because I'm not the soul of tact. It still plagues me.

[Q] Playboy: You could have fooled us. Let's check some of your other attitudes. Where do you stand on the issue of capital punishment?

[A] Gibson: For certain crimes, yeah, you should knock them off. You've got to remove certain people, like they're too awful to be around.

[Q] Playboy: Gun control?

[A] Gibson: That's a tough question. There are so many assholes out there with guns, and they'll always have guns, so you might as well have the right to bear arms.

[Q] Playboy: Do you own guns?

[A] Gibson: I would rather not talk about that. I do.

[Q] Playboy: You have six children. How do you deal with the fact that most gun accidents happen in the home?

[A] Gibson: By keeping it in someone else's house.

[Q] Playboy: What type of protection does that offer?

[A] Gibson: Anybody comes knocking, I've got a hockey stick and a bat and, what's even better, a shinto stick, which I can beat the shit out of them with. It's real snappy, like a hurling stick. It's a triangular piece of wood from Scotland.

[Q] Playboy: You can use it on your critics, who have called you, among other things, homophobic, misogynistic--

[A] Gibson: Racist, bigoted, all sorts of things.

[Q] Playboy: Are you any of those things?

[A] Gibson: No, I'm not. I'm really not. I think if you suggest that you find some modes of behavior unnatural, then you become all those things. And you get vilified. It's like having people holding signs and trying to spit on you.

[Q] Playboy: Has that ever happened to you?

[A] Gibson: Yeah.

[Q] Playboy: When?

[A] Gibson: When I put my hands in cement a couple of years ago.

[Q] Playboy: Outside Mann's Chinese Theater in Hollywood?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, that's when I found out I was a misogynist, a bigot, a racist, a neo-Nazi and a homophobe. They had signs, they were screaming and frothing at the mouth, pure hatred. It was wild. People just looking for attention.

[Q] Playboy: That was a gay protest, right?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, totally whipped up from nowhere. I got up to the microphone to say something and it was, like, jeers. I decided to go up and look at the people to see who they were and why they were so angry.

[Q] Playboy: Do you know why they were angry with you?

[A] Gibson: It was over something I said five years ago in a Spanish interview, which was taken the wrong way. I don't want to go into it again because it's like igniting a fucking spark. I just don't want it--I don't want anyone writing to me or coming to my house. I don't want any of that shit. Suffice it to say that I've been chased by automobiles doing dangerous things on the freeway. I'm not even comfortable with you printing this because there are certain organizations that like to breathe down my neck. I don't give a fuck what they do so long as they keep it to themselves.

[Q] Playboy: But what did you say that so pissed them off?

[A] Gibson: Whatever it was I said, they found it offensive. The next day I was doing an interview on national television and was asked, "So, are you going to apologize? You've offended the community." I said, "I'm not apologizing to anyone. I'll apologize when hell freezes over. They can fuck off." Then the war started. It's made me totally paranoid. I've got to learn to keep my mouth shut.

[Q] Playboy: Not yet, though. We still have a few more questions. What's the best script you've read?

[A] Gibson:Schindler's List, which I read in one sitting. I fully expected not to like it. It surprised me. Holocaust stories had been done to death. But I was totally sucked into it and really moved by it.

[Q] Playboy: Were you being considered for Schindler?

[A] Gibson: I was one of those nameless people who did an audition that was supposed to be confidential.

[Q] Playboy: And you wanted the part?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, sure.

[Q] Playboy: What did you think of Liam Neeson in the role?

[A] Gibson: Oh, he was fine, great. He was that big teddy bear guy. Liam brought his own thing to that, which was wonderful. I would have made him a lot slicker.

[Q] Playboy: Are there other parts that you've wanted but didn't get?

[A] Gibson: I rarely talk about this kind of stuff. I only really tried to do one thing, and that was Mozart in Amadeus. I was 25 years old and just barged in on director Miloš Forman. It was one of those meetings. He was really uncomfortable, so I thought I'd leave him the hell alone.

[Q] Playboy: Al Pacino also wanted a part in that movie--Salieri, whom F. Murray Abraham played. But Forman said he didn't want big stars in it.

[A] Gibson: I didn't have that excuse. He didn't know who the hell I was.

[Q] Playboy: We haven't talked much about your directing.

[A] Gibson: I really like doing that.

[Q] Playboy: Does being an actor help you as a director?

[A] Gibson: Absolutely. No question. That's how I access the whole thing, right through that door. I think actors make good directors.

[Q] Playboy:The Man Without a Face was the first motion picture you directed. You would have preferred to get William Hurt or Jeff Bridges to act in it, but they both turned it down, didn't they?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, either they didn't like it or they were busy. I kept giving the script out to people and they kept saying no, so I thought, Fuck, I'll do it. It was a scary but rewarding experience.

[Q] Playboy: What made you think you could direct it?

[A] Gibson: I just thought I could tell the story as well as anyone. I could see it in my mind. It was a good place to go, into uncharted waters. The week before I started shooting I saw Peter Weir and he said, "I hear you're going to direct a film." I said, "Yeah, I'm really scared." And he said, "You'd better be."

[Q] Playboy: Didn't you also ask Clint Eastwood for advice?

[A] Gibson: I talked with him. I had read Unforgiven before he shot it, so I just called him up. I was clutching at straws, I was just terrified.

[Q] Playboy: What kind of advice did Eastwood give you?

[A] Gibson: He said, "Just relax. A lot of this stuff is subliminal shit. You probably picked it up and you don't even know it." And he was right.

[Q] Playboy: After the Mad Max films you said that you had no intention of becoming Mr. Action Adventure or the next Clint Eastwood. Looking at how Eastwood's career has gone, would you take that back?

[A] Gibson: No. You can't be Clint. Not the tall one. Nobody can match the tall one.

[Q] Playboy: Does that also mean there won't be a Lethal Weapon 4?

[A] Gibson: No. Not with that title. Maybe something like it. We've done it to death. Three times, for Pete's sake. We're lucky.

[Q] Playboy: You seemed to get along well with Danny Glover.

[A] Gibson: Danny's cool. He's good to work with. Those films were very rewarding. It's just horsing around. But that's the spirit of Donner. He's like a big kid. He doesn't take life too seriously. But he's also got the wisdom of your dad.

[Q] Playboy: Are they your most popular films?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. Tough-guy, macho stuff. They're almost cartoons.

[Q] Playboy: You got to know Gary Busey during the first Lethal Weapon. Didn't he take you to a Lakota Sioux sweat lodge?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, it was a Native American church in the hills above Malibu. Sioux Indians came from everywhere. It was the real deal. It was a friendly, loving experience. Basically, they shut the doors, heat up the fire and pray. There were men and women so we were all in bathing suits, shoulder to shoulder. It was completely dark and hard to breathe. I did a thing recently called watsu, ever hear of that?

[Q] Playboy: No.

[A] Gibson: It's this weird deal where they put you in water and hold you like a baby and float you around. It's very womb-like. Somebody is stretching your limbs. A woman was holding me. It was in Palm Springs. I read about it and said, "I'll try this."

[Q] Playboy: Was your wife with you?

[A] Gibson: Yeah, she tried it, too. I thought it was great. I've done a lot of that crap--mud baths, saunas, hot tubs. I even used to do that thing where you hang upside down and stretch your spine, but that fucked up my knees and ankles.

[Q] Playboy: Your wife once claimed that the only sort of exercise you do is lifting babies.

[A] Gibson: I never used to work out, but now I'll run six miles and then lift very light weights once a week. I feel better now than I did ten years ago. I live cleaner. I can run farther and last longer.

[Q] Playboy: When you're relaxing, what music do you listen to?

[A] Gibson: Anything, from Nine Inch Nails to Chopin's nocturnes to opera. I love opera.

[Q] Playboy: Whom do you prefer, Pavarotti or Domingo?

[A] Gibson: I like Placido. Pavarotti's got the sweetest voice, but the real balls, I think, is Placido. But I like Jussi Björling better than both of them.

[Q] Playboy: How much of a gambler are you?

[A] Gibson: Every now and then I might bet on a fight or horse around on the roulette wheel. A guy once showed me a surefire system. I wish I could remember it. It works in circuits, and you always win. I think I lived off my gambling winnings in London.

[Q] Playboy: With a surefire system, what's the most you have ever lost playing roulette?

[A] Gibson: I dropped about $11,000 one time, which is too much. There's something kind of immoral about it.

[Q] Playboy: But generally, you feel lucky?

[A] Gibson: Yeah. One time in Australia I was driving through a country town and it was a real good time in my life, coming after a real rough time. I said, "You know what? I should bet a horse." There was an offtrack betting outlet at the side of the road. I decided to take whatever I had in my wallet and put it on the first race. I picked this fucking name because I liked it, New Beginning, and slapped $36--all I had--on him. It was a 50--1 shot. It was televised and I watched this horse tip this other one by a nose. I wasn't surprised. I went back, turned in my ticket and got all this bread in cash. Stashed it in my pocket, got in the car and drove off. Those kinds of things happen to me.

[Q] Playboy: Life's been good to you. Do you suffer at all from guilt?

[A] Gibson: People who don't deal with guilt have a problem, unless you never do anything to transgress what you know to be right or wrong. And there are very few people who don't step over the line, because it's fun to goof up, it's fun to fuck up. It is. You can't deny it.

It was over something I said five years ago. Suffice it to say that I've been chased by automobiles doing dangerous things on the freeway.

He deserves death. He attacked me at an elemental level. He's lucky he's still walking.

I have tremendous respect for women. I love them. All good things emanate from them. The guys mess up.