Can Friends do It?

Sari Locker is an expert on sex--or as expert as one can be at the age of 25. Reviews of her recent book, Mindblowing Sex in the Real World, hailed her, inevitably, as the Dr. Ruth of Generation X. With a master's in human sexuality education from Penn, she also landed her own TV show (Late Date With Sari now airs nightly on Lifetime). In person, this attractive single woman is brash about her early achievements. "My youth makes me more appealing," she says. "What other 25-year-old knows this much about sex and has the credentials to prove it? Some people who write about sex even try to lie about their age to sound younger." But Locker can also be self-effacing. "What I regret about my book was that I used the old 'It's not the size of the ship' cliché," she says. "Penis size does matter. I should have talked about how to deal with it." Most important, she has lectured to, and spoken with, thousands of college students in the line of duty. She has plenty of anecdotal information about what gives her generation its libidinal twitch. Associate Editor Christopher Napolitano met Locker in New York City for a spirited conversation.

When you're in your 20s, you have been exposed through sitcoms to every possible sexual dilemma. You act as if you don't need to be taught anything. So what is it that people don't know?

People my age grew up with the flick of remote control, listening to an anchorman say AIDS could end us all while hearing on the next channel Madonna sing, "You've got the moves, baby, you've got the motion, let's get together and we'll be causing a commotion." Mixed messages led us to fear disease and, somewhat, sex. But they also gave us an anticipation of the excitement that eroticism can bring to us. Now, coming into our mid-20s, we have a good sense of how to have safe sex and still have a wild, exciting time. The bigger issues are who to have sex with, and whether to have sex with or without a commitment. Sex and relationships have segmented.

Is that because sex is always there?

It goes back to the myth of the third date: If you don't have sex by the third date you're not going to have sex--either you're just friends or you stop seeing each other. Two people can get along great, but for some reason if one rejects sex by the third date, then they are totally confused about what to do. But if a woman and a man have a one-night stand, the groundwork is set: It's just casual sex. They can decide whether or not to see each other. It's integrating sex into relationships that gives them problems.

Is that a major issue?

It's huge among 20-somethings. We see this with Ross and Rachel on Friends: They don't know whether they should be friends or lovers. This is a tremendous problem. There's an enormous number of us with opposite-gender friends. That's why we latch on to Ross and Rachel. We wonder what we should do in our own relationships and we look to Friends as our informal sex educators. As single women our mothers looked to Mary Tyler Moore as a role model on dating. Now, we look at Ross and Rachel as role models for whether we should have sex with our friends.

What about the sex itself? Where do they turn for inspiration?

I was recently listening to Nine Inch Nails' Closer. Every time I go out to clubs I hear all my friends singing "I want to fuck you like an animal." A couple of generations ago, it was the Beatles singing I Want to Hold Your Hand. I thought, What makes somebody compose a song like this, and what makes 20-somethings sing along to it? That's when I realized how much we want to take command of our sexuality. The notion of the lyrics is really, "I want to grab you and have sex with you." It's also a long way since George Michael sang I Want Your Sex, which was about committed monogamy. And instead of having fantasies that are simply romantic, many more women now have this notion of just having sex.

Do they really like that or are they projecting an image?

They wouldn't do it if they didn't like it. I think more than ever women are more assertive and sexually aggressive. Many women are comfortable picking up men--and women. But again, I also hear so much naivete from women and men when I lecture at universities. A guy once came up to me and said, "Condoms always break with me. Do I have a sharp penis?" I thought, How can a man be so naive that he thinks his penis can be sharp enough to break a condom? And how can he be so uneducated about condoms? So that's the basis of the confusion that swirls around our sexuality. Here we are as a generation saying, "Let's have mind-blowing, wild, erotic, sometimes kinky, dirty sex." But then we say, "Uh-oh, we have to worry about AIDS. We feel insecure about our bodies. We don't know how to be in relationships or get out of them. What do we do now?" That's where I come in as a sex educator.

What do you mean by "picking up" or "asking out"?

We have all these loose terms. Asking out, going out, hooking up, fooling around. If you arrange to meet a guy at a bar, you are just hanging out--you're not on a date. Some people say, "I have never been on a date." They have had full-blown relationships but no official dates. They just hang out. Hooking up means everything but intercourse, sometimes not even oral sex, and spending the night.

Hooking up, as in "Come over and we'll just go to sleep"?

It never comes up that way. It usually happens at a party. You meet someone and spend the night--"Last night I hooked up with so-and-so."

Is the number of guys your average woman sleeps with nowadays an issue?

These days, when a woman gives a man good oral sex he thinks, Well, she must have done this a lot to be so good. But he doesn't care because he is thrilled to be getting a good blow job. But sometimes I do hear the old double standard from a guy who wants to marry a virgin. But that's exceptional. In my estimation, only ten percent of people wait until marriage to have sex. A recent study said that 88 percent of 22-year-olds have had sex. That does not leave a lot of virgins to marry.

What has this done to a man's sense of commitment to his lover?

Most women are intelligent enough to know that sex doesn't guarantee love, it doesn't guarantee commitment, it doesn't guarantee even phone calls. Women are not waiting by the phone as much as they were 20 years ago. A woman should get the guy's number, too--not just give out hers. We all know that by now.

What advice do you give to inexperienced people on sex itself?

Start with kissing. Don't just kiss a woman on the lips. Kiss her ears, and her neck down to her chest. Young guys sometimes compartmentalize breasts: "OK, now I'll rub them for ten seconds, suck on them for 15 and then go down on her." He should touch them as if he were making love to her whole body. That will help her relax and turn her on.

What's the most sensitive area?

To kiss? Many women would say the neck and ears.

This is graphic, but how about. . . . Between the vagina and the anus? Ah, the graphic spot. There are so many names for that spot. The technical name is the perineum. Pressure on the flesh between the vagina and the anus can be quite stimulating. Very pleasurable. If the woman has no hang-ups, a guy could lick from the butt to the clitoris, all the way up.

Any other rules on oral sex?

The guy shouldn't go down there with his eyes closed, trying not to smell or taste, flicking his tongue on her clitoris. Dive in--get into it. If it's not fulfilling to him, it's not going to work for her.

Do you have any advice for young men on intercourse?

A lot of guys rush to try everything the first time: "I better do it doggy style because I don't know when I'm going to get another chance." They want to start on top, then have her on top to see her breasts bounce, then they want to get behind, then standing up or sitting. Within 30 seconds they have been in six positions. They don't know if they've just had sex or finished a wrestling match. Great sex is when you are totally in the moment, feeling connected and not thinking about where to put your hand next.

Or thinking about baseball?

I don't believe in thinking about baseball to hold off orgasms. It spoils the intimacy of sex. I'd much rather have a man ejaculate before he thinks he wants to. If he thinks, Oh, shit, I came too soon, his enjoyment is lost. Just start over.

What do women first struggle with?

Well, hand jobs can be difficult. When a guy masturbates, he knows how fast to go and which fingers to keep tight. A woman often has difficulty making the penis slide through her hand. Her grip is too tight or too loose. I recommend lubricant--you get the glide and the pressure. Astroglide has the least taste, smell or stickiness. I was at a Society for the Scientific Study of Sex convention when I first saw it on display. I squeezed a sample into my hand and immediately looked around and thought, I have to get a man to unzip his pants. Just touching it makes you want to give hand jobs.

Let's move back a few years. What was unique about your generation's high school experiences?

Well, for many kids TV was the babysitter. We're the generation of latchkey kids. We were home alone after school because our parents were working.

Does this latchkey environment foster sexual exploration?

Sure. The number one place teens have sex is in their own beds with their boyfriends or girlfriends. That's why it's so liberating for them to leave home. They had to finish sex by 5:15 before Mom walked in, or worry about having cops bang on the car window.

How about in college?

College is safer. It's also a closed community. Everyone has been with everyone else in the dorm and that's it.

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Then what? Do you experience a higher level of anxiety when you move into the general population?

You have difficulty getting into relationships. In college it's easy to meet people. In the real world, you can't say, "What's your major?" You have to find a new group. Even in New York, I find it's easier to be part of one circle that's connected to others.

How present is the threat of AIDS? Do you know heterosexuals who got AIDS?

I don't hear of heterosexuals who are HIV-positive other than those the media has brought to our attention: Allison Gertz, Ryan White, Magic Johnson. Personally, the people I know who are HIV-positive contracted HIV through sex with a gay man, not through heterosexual sex. I don't know anyone who has contracted it through needles, either, but that says more about my social circle than anything else. Most middle-class 20-somethings fall in the same category. They get HIV through sex with a gay man. But everyone I know--everyone--says they are afraid of getting AIDS. And they still don't understand that it's not that easy to get. I am asked, "Can I get it from kissing?" Or, "Can I get it easily if I go down on a woman?" Things they should be able to understand, they still don't understand. And this comes from a generation that had AIDS education in school! They've heard the answers.

But they want constant reassurance?

Exactly. Most of their school districts had AIDS education. They have heard the scare tactics, but they're just not conscious of the answers. However, they are afraid. A small percentage always uses condoms, some never do and most use them except when neither partner has one. Or they use them at first but stop because they're sure they can trust each other--until they find out one of them has cheated.

How about the AIDS test? Has it become a dating ritual?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Most 20-somethings who want a committed, monogamous relationship will convince their lover to get tested. Or they'll get tested together. But most of the people who get the test are at so little risk. I've talked with women in college who have had sex with only two men--with condoms--but they still worry enough to get tested. And that's fine. If they want reassurance, fine. It's an inexpensive test. But they don't realize they have to wait six months--using condoms throughout--and get tested again to make sure they don't have it. This generation wants to stop using condoms in relationships. Most I've talked to have had sex with and without.

When you say it's hard to use a condom, do you speak from experience?

As a sex educator, I don't just say, "Use a condom every single time." I tell people tips I've learned about how to have more fun with condoms. A man is much more willing to use a condom if he's presented with it in an enjoyable way. Little tricks like putting lubricant inside the condom. When I tell men about it they say, "Now that you mention it, gee, a condom might feel better with lubricant." I mean the men I teach in workshops. In my book I teach women to put condoms on with their mouths. Those are things that can help people my age.

Does having sex without a condom sound like more fun to you than with a condom? Or would that cause more anxiety?

I value my sexual health as I value my general health. The only way to have sex that's safe is to use a condom. Those are my personal values.

Do you look forward to the day when you don't have to use a condom?

Actually, I don't think about it in terms like that. That's interesting. I don't know. I've been thinking and talking about this since 1988. But most people my age resent using condoms because we feel we were promised a sexual revolution we never got. They use them because it's a fact of life, it's a normal function of having sex. The issues that I personally deal with have more to do with relationships than they do with sexual intercourse.

Would you ever date a sex educator?

I would not be interested in a guy in this field. I'm more compatible with people in other industries--say, movie stars. Who wants a sex educator when you can date a movie star? Except for people who want to date me.

You want to name names?

Not yet. In the past few months I've dated movie stars, students, doctors, lawyers, TV people, writers. That's kind of a lot of people, isn't it? [Laughs] But it's just dating. Once I find someone great I'll commit to him. I need someone strong and successful who can deal with all that I've accomplished. I'm traditional--I want a farm and puppies and kids and marriage. I hope I'll have marriage first But there's no chance of my getting pregnant right now when I'm single because I, uh, am not having sex now.

Why is that?

I can't have sex while I'm dating all these people, so I abstain. It would probably be too confusing: "Who's this inside me now?"

Is anyone having good sex?

Sure, plenty of people are having good sex. I think, though, they want to have mind-blowing sex, to take it a step further. Most 20-year-olds have problems with not knowing or not feeling comfortable with their bodies. Body-image problems are so pervasive. The sexual prowess of a young guy--how much fun he will have in bed--is tied up with how big he thinks his penis looks to his new partner. When a couple is naked together for the first time, they are very evolved if they do not wonder, How shall I roll over so he or she doesn't notice my butt?

Is this because they see themselves as being part of a movie?

Part of it is the impact of the media, the impact of seeing perfect images of bodies. Or we can talk about ads if you want. You could say it's the diet industry or the billions spent on exercise.

Is that a major issue--how they look?

Yes. Developmentally, their bodies are still new. They're getting used to sex with those bodies. Let's say they started having sex when they were 15, 16, 17.

Is that the normal age?

Sure, 16 is the average. Fifty percent have had sex by age 16. Their bodies are not fully developed. Let's say they have sex throughout college. They've started to understand their bodies fairly well by the time they're 20. By their early 20s it's the first time they feel stuck in those bodies or notice they're gaining weight. They find they need some upkeep to have a body that looks at all like the media images. And you can't enjoy sex until you feel comfortable with your body.

Is this a big postcollege thing? Do they see themselves rolling around in the surf on "Baywatch"?

I think more Friends, Melrose Place. Those are the age groups of TV characters I think about. We call my TV show a reality version of Friends because people sit around talking. But on Friends they never talk about body image because they have perfect bodies. And they always talk about body image with me on my TV show.

What about women in their 20s who admire how their female friends look and worry, "Hey, do I want to have sex with her?"

It's common for a woman in her 20s to experiment with another woman, very common. Many women want to try lesbianism because they feel an attraction for women. And that's because of the prevalence of erotic images of women--like in Playboy. The images of women in our society are so beautiful, it's so easy for a woman to look and say, "She's so beautiful. I can see myself with her sexually. But I'm not gay." Compare that with a man looking at images of men.

Like Antonio Banderas?

Yeah. He played bisexual characters in those Almodóvar movies: Law of Desire, Matador--the old ones before Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown was a hit. When men look at a sex symbol like him they don't think, Hey, I can be sexual with him. Instead, they think, Hey, is he gay? He did play a gay guy. Then they think, I can't be turned on by a gay guy. They don't know whether these stars are gay or straight so they won't let themselves feel attracted, while a woman is able to feel attracted to a female sex symbol. That's the new sexuality, the new sexual orientation women have adopted. "I'm not bisexual but sometimes I like to experiment with women because I find them attractive." I think that has to do with images. By now we know that men and women--not just men--are turned on by sexual images. And 20-somethings are well aware of it.

Are women fooled by their feelings because everything is sexually charged? Or do they think, Well, sex with a woman might be nice?

Sometimes they do it because their boyfriend wants to have sex with another woman--it's almost never another guy. What the women don't stop to consider is that not only will they have a threesome but they're also going to have sex with a woman for the first time. Often that's the way a woman is introduced to sex with another woman.

If two women are with one guy, who says the women have to touch each other?

Last week on my TV show, three or four out of the six guys said they had threesomes. One of them, an absolutely adorable guy, 25, said he didn't like his threesome because he was an accessory. I hear that so much.

Doesn't someone always get left out?

Yeah, but again, the women are experimenting with bisexuality. They have a guy present so they don't feel like lesbians. It's very prevalent.

It's not like it's a chance for the guy to fuck around--with his girlfriend's approval?

There's so much less of that today. It's more a way for a woman to experiment with another woman than a way for a guy to cheat. I hear far more stories of threesomes that go wrong because the guy feels left out than a woman who feels hurt because the guy is cheating.

Are we loosening up about cheating?

What I hear from women is "I want to stay with my boyfriend even though he's cheating." It's a sad fact.

Toys, role-playing, videos--there are many sexual treats out there. What kind of an impact do they have?

Phone sex is fun. The big question is, "How do you know the other person got off and wasn't acting?" Still, people enjoy it if they do it well. We're bored with this talk of cybersex--I hear that all the time. Sex online is just like phone sex--except it's easier because you have more time to think before you type. They say they're bored with CD-ROMs. They'd rather look at videos. I think we are jaded because we have looked at more sexually explicit material than any other generation. No other generation saw S&M exposed the way we have. Yet it's still only a turn-on for the few who like to do it or who just have a leather fetish.

Isn't it a big trend for people to say they have tried everything once?

Well, I think as far as anal sex, some people say that's a forbidden area. But I get lots of questions about it. It seems like a lot of people are enjoying it. One guy on my show said the best oral sex he ever got was when a woman started exploring his anus with her finger and tongue. He was shocked, but then he realized how good it felt and got over the inhibition. As Funkadelic George Clinton said, "Free your mind and your ass will follow."

Will a woman your age talk with another woman this graphically about anal sex?

They will talk about it far more casually than a man. If a woman is anally liberated her friends take it to mean she's comfortable with her body. Unless the friend says, "That's disgusting, I never do that." But if a man expresses that he's anally liberated, his friends will say, "Oh, you want guys to do that to you? What are you, gay?" There's much more fear for men.

How popular are porn tapes?

Recently, I did a show with six guys and I asked, "Who masturbates to porn videos?" All of them said they did. I think couples do that also--some couples act out sex in front of videos, some couples just watch. The only problem is when the sex scene ends and you're not done. Next thing you know you're watching two guys fully dressed on a cheesy set, and you don't know what they are talking about because, of course, you haven't followed the plot. I recommend that you preview the movie quickly first.

Are MTV or B movies with nudity sexier than porn?

I think more people get aroused seeing sex. But there are still some women who like romance and the seduction of seeing something that hints of sex.

Which group are you in?

I'm in an interesting category. When I'm in my office at looking at a porn magazine or looking at a porn video, it doesn't even occur to me to get turned on. It's just work. You know?

Will, I'll be surprised if there's not one image that doesn't catch my attention. Do you get turned on by erotic images?

I don't like to get into my personal life. That's where I tend to stop. I mean, if I'm looking at a piece of erotica in my bedroom, I'll feel turned on. If that same piece is in my office, I won't. That's how I've integrated this career with my life. If you come to my office at home you will notice that the door to my bedroom is shut. I don't let reporters into my bedroom and I don't get turned on by my work. But sure, I can get turned on by anything that's erotic to me.

How can you treat erotica so conditionally?

If I'm hosting my show and my guests are six totally gorgeous, single guys talking about sex and telling erotic stories, there is no way I would hook up with one of them. But if I'm at a club with a friend and I meet a gorgeous single guy and he tells me an erotic story, sure I'm going to get turned on. It's the context.

That seems reasonable. Who do you give more advice to, women or men?

Split 50-50. Different advice. Women ask for emotional advice. Guys say, "I like sleeping with my ex, but I don't know if it's a good idea."

Guys ask their friends, "Did she swallow?" What do women say?

A woman knows a guy wants to be swallowed so he'll feel more psychological acceptance.

He likes it because it feels better.

Or because he might think it feels better. I'm sorry--because it feels better. So she's thinking, Should I swallow to make him feel better? But at the same time, as she's thrusting her head up and down on his penis, she is also thinking, Am I more at risk of HIV if I swallow? Am I going to gag and vomit on him? The next day, she might say to her friend, "Last night I swallowed. Am I going to get AIDS?"

How about, "I wonder when this guy's going to eat me out?"

A lot of young women feel insecure about a man performing oral sex on them because they're afraid he's not going to like the smell or the taste. They feel self-conscious in totally letting go.

Is it a big deal for a young woman to go out and buy a G-string?

No, it's not. Some women don't like the way their butts look so they don't wear them. They might buy one or lingerie that's cut out if the guy wants them to. Turnoffs to women: Guys who are out of college who wear boxers with their college emblem and guys who wear plain white cotton briefs, though Calvins are OK. If a woman cares about how she looks sexually, she wants some reciprocation from the man. Sexy lingerie has been so integrated in our culture through the Victoria's Secret catalog. Women don't think it's a big deal unless they feel pressure.

How conversant are the people you know about sex toys?

I've held up dildos in front of 400 people in universities. I have seen some shocked faces while others say, "Where's the studded dildo? Where's the one that looks like a dolphin?" At school, when someone says she's unable to have an orgasm, she's told a vibrator will help. There's that sharing of information.

How does that work?

I was once approached after a lecture by two 19-year-olds. Sue had never had an orgasm. Her friend Ellen told her to use a vibrator. Sue went to a store and asked, "What's the best vibrator?" "The Hitachi Magic Wand." Sue used it and had orgasms with it. They wanted to know if you could get addicted to a vibrator. I told Sue she was relying too much on the vibrator and to go cold turkey. "Learn to use your hand," I said. She pouted but said she'd try.

The Hitachi Magic Wand is a mythic device, isn't it?

Any 20-something woman who knows anything about vibrators knows about the Hitachi Magic Wand. It's the bestseller and you can buy attachments.

What are some common fantasies for people in their 20s?

Exotic locations, oh my God, exotic locations are huge. They want to do more. They're doing it in the office, in the elevator, in the plane, the park, the bar.

The danger is exciting?

They don't do it in a public place to see if they get caught. It's more the feeling of, "We can have sex. Let's conquer the world with sex. Let's do it everywhere we can." And it's a great, celebratory feeling.

What do you think of other sex educators, such as Dr. Ruth, say, or Dr. Judy Kuriansky?

A lot of sex educators have overblown images. Dr. Ruth has become a caricature of herself. Dr. Kuriansky went on Ricki Lake dressed like a referee. It's like, wait a minute, we're talking about sex. Why not just be yourself?

In your book you say your friends at college got politicized about sex.

We have to get rid of sexual politics. Even Playboy is falling victim to the politicization of sex. Once, a magazine about sex was about human relationships. Now there's so much politics laced through the Playboy Forum.

That's our platform for our political issues. What else would we put there?

I think it's unfortunate that politics is so much in the fore. I resent feminists from the Seventies and Eighties who said the personal is political.

Beyond the headlines, do you think what they say has actually affected how people date or fall in love?

Oh gosh, it does. A woman goes out on a date and thinks, I don't know if I should invite him back to my room because he might rape me, instead of thinking, I don't know if I should invite him back to my room because I don't know if I like him enough. Or, If I fool around I don't know if I can express how much I do or don't want him.

Wait a minute. Aside from its current political context, can't you see how date rape can be a practical subject?

No, no, no! Talk about dating! Not date rape! Dating is a sensible subject. They don't talk about it. All they talk about is the politics of date rape. Their talk shouldn't be in the context of rape, it should be in the context of dating. This generation thinks in terms of politics first. When a woman is in college, she is exposed to the pro-choice versus pro-life debate. But when she goes out into the real world, if she gets pregnant, she is at a total loss. So I teach college students how to deal with personal, emotional issues because they have no clue.

Are they that clueless? Don't their friends have any answers?

To politics! Women in their early 20s who get pregnant say to me, "I never thought about this. I'm pro-choice." I say, "Yes, but do you want to keep your baby or have an abortion?" They've never thought about it.

Is it so unusual to support a woman's right to choose and at the same time not want to have an abortion?

They spend four years at an institution where all they learn to do is talk about sex in a pretentious way. They don't know how to deal with people on a date. They don't know how to make decisions about sex. They don't want to use a condom, but they don't know what to do about disease. That's why I get so angry. We have to stop the sexual politics and learn to talk about practical issues. About pleasure. About fucking.