Playboy's 20Q: Jamie Oliver
October, 2002
Jamie Oliver swears he didn't set out to become a television chef. He was just tending the stove in a London restaurant. "I was making pasta and tying up a big pork roast while a documentary was being filmed. I was in the background." The footage "went out a couple of months later on the telly." He was seen and asked to do his own show. The offer immediately went to his head. "I became very bossy and cocky. Everyone was trying to get me to cook in a studio, and I wanted to cook in my house. I wanted to be less chefy. Chefs can scare the hell out of the public."
No toques on the Naked Chef, just the bloke next door cooking up some tasty grub for his mates and maybe a bird or two. Naked? That's the term Oliver uses for cuisine served straight up, with no elaborate sauces to overpower the taste of simple, high-quality ingredients.
Oliver wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he was handed a spatula early on in his father's Essex pub. After a stint in culinary school, he landed at a restaurant in France near Calais ("I couldn't speak hardly any French, so I just stayed in the kitchen, where I was safe"). He also bummed around at little "farmhouse" restaurants in Italy.
The Food Network imported Oliver's show from the BBC as it was, though a subtitle or two might have helped American viewers. Tip: "Pukka" means tasty in Oliver's kitchen vernacular. The network was so pleased it ordered a batch of original shows. Oliver's Twist airs Tuesday evenings.
Oliver also swears he never intended to become a cookbook author. He just happened to keep a diary of his recipes, "a day in the life of cooking." His third volume, Happy Days With the Naked Chef, will be released any day now.
Contributing Editor Warren Kalbacker talked with Oliver when he visited New York's meat market district in the west village. According to Kalbacker, "He was so open with his cooking advice that I suspect 'secret recipe' might be an alien concept to him. But he warned me that there was another Jamie Oliver, who appears when he dons a toque to prepare restaurant meals: 'I'm a hard bastard in the kitchen. We spend a lot of money on produce, and if the help disrespects the courgettes or aubergines, all hell breaks loose.' "
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[Q] Playboy: It's not just about the food, is it?
[A] Oliver: I'm a great believer that it's not. Cooking is a very sensual thing. It's a loving thing. Some of the best moments I've had have been around the dinner table. To be invited to someone's house for a meal, whether it's your friends or fa0mily, is really personal. And if you can cook, that's the key. You don't want to be flapping all over the place, sweating, and have some bird turn up at your house. If you can cook just a few dishes good, once she walks in the door you make it all seem effortless and relaxed—"Oh, it's nothing. It's easy. Sit down, darling. Have a glass of wine. What have you been doing today?" She'll be on you like a rash. She'll be after you. If you want to shag on the table, then go ahead and shag on the table.
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[Q] Playboy: When the time comes to forgo take-out food or restaurant meals, what can a guy do to overcome fear of frying—and broiling and baking?
[A] Oliver: Failure is the biggest intimidation. But who gives a shit? I make mistakes all the time. You learn from them. I know some cracking good cooks who actually can't cook many things, but they have balls. Confidence shines in the kitchen. The most important thing is accepting that you're going to give it a go. Instead of going into the realm of restaurant cookery, just cook some of the things you've learned, but do them with a little twist and do them well: the perfect roast chicken, the perfect spaghetti, the perfect scrambled egg, the best risotto. It's phenomenal the flavors and the nutrition you get from fresh herbs. There are a few things you can do to turn around your cooking quick time. Using fresh herbs is one of them. And getting your larder supplies sorted out.
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[Q] Playboy: If your girlfriend is going to peek into your cupboard or fridge—and she surely will—what would you want her to find there?
[A] Oliver: She'd want to think you're a bit stylish, so even if you're just a burger freak, have a bag of risotto rice on hand, a pack of dried porcini, some smoked paprika, a tin of good anchovies, some really good olive oil. And a tin of baked beans, because you don't want to scare her off completely. Your woman is going to look in there and think, He's a classy boy, and he likes the simple things in life.
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[Q] Playboy: As the son of a publican, please describe for us the glories of British pub culture.
[A] Oliver: My family's pub is 450 years old. It's a great thing to get a locally made beer with a really beautiful home-cooked dish. My father was one of a handful who 20-some years ago introduced good food into an old-fashioned pub. My dad makes fresh pasta. He makes fresh bread every morning. He does breakfast, lunch, dinner. Americans love pubs. I think they love pubs because it's a different atmosphere from their bars. It's the drinking out of pint glasses and the sense of community. And for English people there's nothing like going to a good Cheers-style bar in a city. But pubs are cool. I have a lot of fond memories of time spent in pubs. You got shitty pubs, you got amazing pubs. You got quiet pubs, you got loud pubs. (continued on page 142)Jamie Oliver(continued from page 129)
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[Q] Playboy: Do the Italians know something about cuisine that the French do not?
[A] Oliver: They're very different. No matter what anyone says, the French can cook. They can really cook, French country cooking is earthy, but there's also a pretentious side to it, which is very high-end restaurant. It's lovely to save up and have those meals, but I enjoy the family food more than the restaurant food. I don't like the idea of people breathing on and hands groping over food for hours. I'm a lover of not really touching food, and that's where Italian cuisine comes into its own. The best olive oil shouldn't be used in cooking, it should be drizzled over a salad or used to finish a ribollita or a pasta once it's come off the heat. The Italians are friendly, family oriented, nurturing. Also, as the kings of bullshitters, they're good at pretending they're looking after you, giving you attentive service. Whether they like you or not, they get the job done. Don't get me wrong. I went to Italy for my honeymoon. My best friends are Italian. My mentor, Gennaro, is Italian.
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[Q] Playboy: How can you cook your way into her heart when she's a vegetarian?
[A] Oliver: I don't think there's a problem when using really good produce and such things as beautiful mozzarellas and olives. I didn't mean to do it, but half the recipes in my books are vegetarian, I do a lot of breads, salads, a lot of risottos and pasta and a lot of antipasto and tapas. And within the realm of those, there's a lot of beautiful cooking. The Italians have a very vegetarian diet, but they would never call themselves vegetarian. They like a bit of blood, a little flapping fish. I prefer somebody who is into everything, because food's a bit of a journey. There's always something around the corner that you've never tried. I tried buffalo and moose recently. Moose is just like good beef—a little bit chewier but not much. It's low-fat and very tasty.
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[Q] Playboy: For those of us who cook for our wives and girlfriends, can you describe a recipe that will ignite romance?
[A] Oliver: Definitely. Most women love fish. If you want to ignite romance, go down to the market—on any day apart from a Monday or a weekend, because the fishermen don't go out fishing on weekends. Get yourself a whole, shiny, fresh, sparkly sea bass, have it scaled and gutted, and when you get it back home, stuff it with loads of herbs and spring onions, put it on a big piece of tinfoil, fold it like an envelope, pour a glass of wine in there and a good drizzling of extra-virgin olive oil or butter, seal it up and bake it in the oven. It will puff up like a big pillow, the steam will build and the goodness will come out of the fish. With all the herbs, the wine and the butter, you'll have a beautiful little sauce. Take the whole thing to the table, rip it open in front of her so the steam goes everywhere. Serve it with a green salad and a new-potato salad. It's tactile. You can serve her. She can serve you. Glass of wine. Candle. You want something nice on the stereo, music that's conducive to a little bit of chat and a little bit of romance. Sade as opposed to Prodigy, a mad English rave band with a song called Smack My Bitch Up. They're quite offensive. They're very good, but you don't want to play them when you're trying to pull a bird.
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[Q] Playboy: And what should we serve the morning after?
[A] Oliver: The morning after shagging? I'd make pukkolla, which is basically a soaked muesli with loads of fruit and honey. That's always good, because hardly anyone has tried it before. It's not too heavy and it gives you a massive hit. It's good for hangovers as well. Normally, when we get a bit pissed up back home in England—or bevied up, or bladdered, because you get a big, full bladder, or shit-faced—we eat a thing called kedgeree. It's an Anglo-Indian dish that is basically spices, onions and smoked haddock poached in milk served with rice, coriander and lemon juice. It sounds odd for breakfast. But I've never, ever met anyone who's tried it and doesn't love it.
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[Q] Playboy: We don't expect to see a television chef blow a dish. But tell us a true tale of a screwup.
[A] Oliver: At work there are always little mistakes, something spitting at you. I've got a personal website with an outtakes bit, which shows all kinds of fuckups. Once I was making bread, but somehow it ended up looking like a penis with two balls and I wasn't aware of it. The crew started laughing, and I'm like, "What?" I threw it at one guy who laughed, and he threw it back at me. I wasn't looking, but I had my mouth open and it went straight into my mouth. To be honest, I don't fuck up very often. But you don't go on telly to do dishes that you haven't done a million times and that you aren't safe with.
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[Q] Playboy: Can a burger flipper take away a culinary lesson from that job?
[A] Oliver: Cooking the perfect burger is a good start. If you can cook a burger on a grill, you can cook a steak or a fillet of fish. If you turn burgers for hours and hours, you should have a good sense of control. When something gets too much color, you pull it to the colder end of the grill and let it cook through slower. If you want to crisp it up again, you put it back up. People get a sense of how long a burger will take. They don't just leave it there and watch it burn. I've seen chefs come out of burger-flipping jobs and go to work in two-star Michelin restaurants in France and England.
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[Q] Playboy: Have you ever had breakfast in an American diner, the silver ones with all the trucks parked out front?
[A] Oliver: Many times. I love American diners. I love the bird chewing on gum at seven in the morning and going, "Maw cawfee?" I love the fact that she's either overfriendly or overrude. Sometimes both. The food is normally great. You get good pancakes and great ome-lettes. The portions are huge. I must say American portions are about 20 percent bigger than in England. Humongous. I have been watching, and most people leave a shitload of food on the plate. Why not just make the portions a bit smaller? I suppose you want to cater to the ones who do finish them.
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[Q] Playboy: Why should a guy learn to make pasta?
[A] Oliver: When I learned to make pasta as a chef it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It was like having ammunition. If you want to impress any bird, mother-in-law, business client, don't take them to a local restaurant. You don't have to learn all the pastas. Just learn how to make one, but well. Pasta is in all our hearts. We love it. And to make it is great fun. Make it three or four times and you start getting the hang of it. If you don't ever want to make it again and instead get your missus to do it, fine. But at least know how. I don't like to force anything on anyone, but pasta is a funky thing. At the end of the day, eggs and flour, that's it. Just by whipping those two things together you get a beautiful elastic dough that you can do anything with—shape, flavor, fold and roll. It's brilliant.
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[Q] Playboy: The microwave: a real aid in the kitchen or an infernal machine?
[A] Oliver: I hate microwaves. Only thing they ever help me with is making hard butter soft so I can put it on my bread. I don't believe they're very good for you, either. A whole lot of recent tests have shown that things with milk retain a lot of the microwaves, and that's not good for you.
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[Q] Playboy: We understand fat makes for flavor, but isn't there a fear factor?
[A] Oliver: Fat is one of the key flavor enhancers in the cooking world. Fat naturally bastes a nice marbled steak and makes it tender and really tasty. If I were to say anything profound it's that we're kind of strange. We'll say, "Oh no, make sure there's no fat on that steak or chicken," when in fact most of our fat intake is disguised within mincemeat and burgers, sausages and processed foods I suppose the thought is if you eat more whole foods as opposed to things out of packets, you'll lose weight straightaway and have tastier food. And you won't have to worry about the marbled steak or a nice roasting joint with a bit of fat on it. The truth is fat always cooks off anyway—it renders. It ends up in the tray, and no one asks you to eat that. If you're roasting a chicken or a piece of pork or beef or lamb, and you cook parboiled potatoes in the fat that's roasted out of that meat, then you'll get the best roasted potatoes in the world. Now, I'd much rather do that and have a real nice meal than eat processed food that contains a lot of rusk and fat. The Italians wrap fish fillets in lard. The lard cooks away to nothing, and the fish fillets end up very crispy. You get texture, you get protection so the fish stays succulent and you get flavor from the fat. You can add herbs. Fat is a very important part of cooking, but must be used intelligendy.
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[Q] Playboy: You think highly of Spotted Dick pudding. An example of the English genius for naming dishes?
[A] Oliver: It is a bloody good dessert. You know why it's called Spotted Dick? In the olden days everyone used to call their dogs Dick. They made this dessert and put raisins in it, and it looked like a dalmatian. So they called it Spotted Dick. So it's not like a rash or anything that you get from some not-so-fortunate woman.
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[Q] Playboy: England seems to have produced more than its share of condiments, from malt vinegar to Worcestershire sauce. Does that tell us something about die country's food?
[A] Oliver: HP sauce is fantastic. For chips or a bacon sandwich, HP is amazing. Every country has its condiments, because summers don't last and things have to be preserved. The Italians have antipasti, we have chutney. We have malt vinegar from all the beer fermentation that went on in England. The Italians have balsamic vinegar. I have no point to prove with British food, but in all honesty English food done well is so good. Of course, it's not good on a hot beach in Malibu, but it is on a cold winter's day at a ski resort. England is cold. We don't have cherry tomatoes, olives and basil because we can't grow them. But we have the best root vegetables, the best cabbages and greens, fabulous animals, and really, really good cold-water fish, flatfish like turbot and sole. English food in its honesty and its guts is genius, but unfortunately there have been raving idiots cooking it for the past 70 years because we were too busy pillaging other people's countries.
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[Q] Playboy: Can you set mashed potatoes in the larger context of Western culture?
[A] Oliver: Mashed potatoes are brilliant. Potatoes are beautiful. You go to chef's school, then you work in all these fabulous places, but show me any chef who doesn't like a good chip. A mashed potato is the same for me. It's a great carrier of flavors. You can put horseradish or herbs into it, parmesan into it, cream and butter, you can put pesto into it. There are a million things to do with it.
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[Q] Playboy: When can a cook leave recipes behind and strike out on his own?
[A] Oliver: Food is subjective. The key is to choose a recipe that is conducive to acceptability and speed and is fun to make. I write, "Add that to taste." Sometimes I say I like a dish this way, but some people do this—put in a couple of anchovy fillets instead of salt and pepper. Or you can do it with zucchini, or with asparagus. It makes people think. The key is to make them feel they're the boss in their own kitchens. A lot of really big strong men often feel like little fairies in their kitchens. So I try to empower the public into thinking that what was Jamie Oliver's recipe now is theirs. I love it when people come up to me and say they used my John Dory recipe, but they couldn't find John Dory so they did it with cod.
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[Q] Playboy: Does your wife wash the dishes?
[A] Oliver: Yes, she does a bit. I mainly get everything in the dishwasher and wash the sink down. As soon as I've sat down, having finished, she'll normally go in there and huff and do it all again because she thinks I didn't do it good enough. These bloody women. But basically, she does all of the Hoovering and clothes washing in exchange for cooking and washing up. That's a fair cop.
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[Q] Playboy: Do you have a plan to avoid being a flash in the pan?
[A] Oliver: Not caring really, and loving what I do. The books and the programs are sort of a diary, a day in the life of me cooking. I think that keeps it fresh. I didn't write my first book with the intention of getting published. It was written as a way for me to remember my recipes. If this all were to stop tomorrow I wouldn't give a flying shit. I've told my bosses I'm not kissing their asses to get jobs. It's just a bit of bloody telly as far as I'm concerned. I'm a very lucky boy.
The morning after shagging I'd make pukkolla. It's not too heavy and it gives you a massive hit.
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