Playboy's 20Q: Charles Rangel

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[Q] Playboy: You've called for reinstating the draft as well as for mandating alternative civilian service. Are you out to change the way young people think about their country?

[A] Rangel: Most everybody I know who served in the military--whether they volunteered or went screaming and yelling--believes they're a better person for the experience. Getting to know Americans from all backgrounds has to make you a better American. It may not be patriotism in the military sense of the word, but it makes you care more about your country. But that's not the reason I want to reinstate the draft. Wouldn't we be better off if all youngsters could be exposed to some type of discipline? Or if kids who come from families that are not strong could get a sense of self-esteem and accomplishment? And if wealthy kids were able to know what life is without wealth? That's not the draft in terms of military service. That's public service.

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[Q] Playboy: Lay out the Rangel draft plan.

[A] Rangel: Two years of mandatory service for ages 18 to 26. Give them an opportunity to finish high school, maybe a year. No deferments except for conscientious objectors. Probably around 35 million kids would be eligible for the draft, but only a fraction of one percent would be needed for the military. What do you do with the rest? We're going to be in a state of war for a long time. We need a real presence at our seaports and our airports, in our hospitals and our schools, on our streets and in our libraries.

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[Q] Playboy: You opposed the invasion of Iraq. Defend your opinion that a large number of draftees in the military will help curb intervention abroad.

[A] Rangel: When people talk about teaching Saddam Hussein a lesson, you don't get the sense that the country has been attacked by Iraq or that national security is involved. You hear congressmen, people in the administration and war advocates say, "We've got this volunteer army and they want to fight." It's like they're talking about the French Foreign Legion. They don't have any real sense of connection. Their children and grandchildren aren't involved in any of it. But war is not just a political decision--it's a nightmare to which you are exposing American kids. More constituents, if they thought their own families would be involved, would be in touch with more congresspeople. Then, when the question comes to Congress, the members would do a lot more thinking before going to war.

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[Q] Playboy: You are a decorated Korean War veteran, and in the Sixties you served as counsel to the National Advisory Commission on Selective Service. Give us the long view on the draft.

[A] Rangel: The problem we had in the Johnson administration was that middle-income families raised such political hell about the draft that they were given a way out with the college exemption. It was a class distinction. They didn't have to face Vietnam. If you've been in combat, you never forget it. It is the worst nightmare you could curse somebody with. You get past the question of shared sacrifice if everyone is exposed when the nation is in danger. We now have about 1.4 million volunteers and about 800,000 National Guardsmen and reservists. They're scattered all over the world. We don't know how many hundreds of thousands it may take to occupy Iraq and search for hard-to-find weapons of mass destruction, to maintain law and order, to keep the peace, to have the transition. We have troops in the Philippines, Colombia, Japan, tens of thousands in Europe, and we're moving toward more military action. Just listen to the president and his threats to Syria and the axis of evil. We are the only superpower left, so there is a sense of responsibility for the world.

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[Q] Playboy: Some have accused you of fomenting a class war. Care to respond?

[A] Rangel: A lot of Republicans agree with me, but they say they don't want to embarrass the president. The truth of the matter is that we've been calling up reservists and the National Guard. This has caused a great deal of hardship on marriages, on families--employers are not hiring a lot of these people back, and there's a dramatic decrease in income. So when you think about our needs for the future, you have to be aware of what we will be dealing with. What do you do when you need more people? We have been increasing the stipends for enlisted personnel, but this is an appeal to working-class folks, the people who need the money, not those who aren't even thinking about the military. Senator McCain has proposed a bill that adds 18 months of military service and pays about $20,000 in educational benefits. Some kid needs $20,000 to go to school and you're saying that he or she should fight the wars of the United States? That's morally wrong. It is immoral to believe that the only people who will be fighting wars and exposing themselves to danger will be those who cannot afford to do anything else.

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[Q] Playboy: Do you and South Carolina Senator Fritz Hollings, who has joined you to promote the idea of a draft, intend to spark a national debate?

[A] Rangel: I don't (continued on page 142) Charles Rangel (continued from page 121) want a debate. It's not like civil rights legislation, on which you have to educate people. I want equity. If for some reason God is good and says we don't need any more damn military, then I'm not going to be pushing it. My government is going to tell the American people it needs more young people for whatever purposes. And when it does, I'm going to say that the equitable way to fulfill our nation's need is through the draft. I'm not saying get rid of the volunteer Army. But why give involuntary extensions to those who are serving now? Why call up the reservists and the National Guard over and over? I went to see off some National Guardsmen from my district. Some of them have gone two or three times. They don't have any problem fulfilling their obligation, but they don't really feel that they're appreciated. Let everyone do a little bit and each person will have less to do.

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[Q] Playboy: We've entered an age of asymmetrical wars, in which a small terrorist group rather than another state can do a great deal of damage to our country. What would satisfy your definition of a national emergency?

[A] Rangel: It would not be when the president gives a speech and the Congress says, "We don't know what it's all about, but we authorize you unilaterally to attack Iraq." Who the hell are you going to go to war with because of September 11? Bush said, Somebody's got to pay for this. You're either with us or against us, and if you give them shelter, we'll destroy you, too. That's a sophisticated version of what we do on the block. Someone hurts someone in your family and the gang gets together and says, "Somebody's got to pay for this." It makes you feel better. Based on that idea, I would have thought they would go and bomb Saudi Arabia--a majority of the hijackers were of Saudi origin. But I believe there was an intention to go into this region long before 9/11. September 11 just caused us to kick it up a notch and identify the biggest bum.

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[Q] Playboy: You have said you could support a preemptive military strike.

[A] Rangel: You bet your life. If there's some guy around the corner with a pipe, waiting for me, I don't want to get hit. Take him out. But you have to have evidence. I say without fear of contradiction that, in all the briefings, they haven't given one scintilla of evidence. We left the subject of Osama bin Laden. We're dealing with Saddam Hussein. And if you don't find any weapons of mass destruction, what are you left with? Regime change.

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[Q] Playboy: God is often invoked by American politicians. Do you feel that the deity plays too large of a role in our public policy discussions, given the constitutional prohibition against a state-established religion?

[A] Rangel: I spent a lot of time building the fire wall between religion and the state. If someone in charge starts expounding on their religion, then there's an exclusion of respect for other people's beliefs. The born-agains, they exclude a lot of people from entering their kingdom of heaven. In fact, someone on the House floor said that Israel belongs to the Jews because they're supposed to be holding on to it for Jesus Christ's return. Representative Barney Frank said to me, "What you don't understand, Charlie, is that when your Jesus gets to our Israel and finds out how much we Jews charged for rent while he's been gone, he is not going to want to be there." Some born-agains would say that I can't make heaven because I'm ridiculing what they believe. But they seem to be far more aggressive than people of other religions. Jerry Falwell has condemned Muhammad for being a terrorist. This country, as great as we are, is so young. We're without any concern about others' beliefs and cultures.

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[Q] Playboy: You have gone on record as supporting some faith-based organizations. Can you explain?

[A] Rangel: This administration would like to pass off federal obligations by giving money to different religions and thereby reduce or eliminate federal responsibility. But when you get to rehabilitation, that's where I'm stumped. I've fought the incursion of drugs all my adult life, unfortunately, because of the community where I was born and raised, in Harlem. It's still a major problem and it doesn't get the attention that it should. With rehabilitation, what works, works. In our prisons black Muslims substitute the Muslim faith for addiction. The churches and synagogues do an extremely good job in doing this.

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[Q] Playboy: You are a liberal Democrat who was first elected to Congress during the Nixon administration. How fares liberalism these days?

[A] Rangel: Liberals have been demonized. But I'm for fiscal responsibility. I don't like paying the interest on the money we borrow. We debate the question every day on the House floor. Under the policies the administration has enunciated, in 10 years we'll be trillions of dollars in debt and the interest on that debt is going to be more than we're paying for health care. That doesn't sound like a sound fiscal policy. But is it liberal to start looking at the priority the Chinese give to education while we think of it as a local responsibility? It should frighten the hell out of anybody that a billion people will be better educated than we are. Will we be in a position to compete? And it seems to me that when people are sick and don't have health care or are worried about their kids not being covered, they're not going to be the most productive employees.

[Q] Playboy: The Constitution requires that all spending bills originate in the House of Representatives. As the ranking Democrat on the Ways and Means Committee, could you explain how you and your fellow members affect our daily lives?

[A] Rangel: Most members of Congress believe that we who serve on the Ways and Means Committee have more self-esteem than we really need [laughs]. If you're dealing with the economy, then you're dealing with issues we meet about every day in Ways and Means. We have all the responsibility for raising taxes and we also have responsibility for all international trade agreements, because tariffs are taxes. Social Security is the largest social program that has ever been enacted. We have responsibility for that and for Medicare programs as well. When you get older you'll appreciate us more.

[Q] Playboy: Potential draftees may want to have a say in whether the politicians who advocate a draft bill will continue in their careers. Would you like to encourage them to visit the polls?

[A] Rangel: One of the saddest things is when less than one quarter of the eligible voters elect the president. Either there's something wrong with the system or we politicians aren't getting our message across. There are those who care about their communities, get their hands dirty, find out what the issues are and raise hell for what they believe in. This has allowed us to succeed for 200 years and to become the world's most powerful, most sought-after country. I fear that if more people drop out of the system, just a handful of people who are not very representative may prevail, especially in view of the expense of getting elected. Some may wake up in the morning and bitch, but it won't make much difference. And as a minority, I want both parties to get people involved. I'm bothered by the fact that more than 90 percent of black Americans are Democrats. There's no question that they're often taken for granted by the Democrats.

[Q] Playboy: You've raised millions for Democratic candidates. Doesn't the cash go to feed the TV ad machine?

[A] Rangel: Unfortunately, and to the chagrin of grassroots politicians who still truly believe that local issues count and that you campaign by knocking on doors. The political consultants who control campaigns are one of the worst things that have ever happened to us. They not only advocate heavy investments in television, but they also get a heavy return, 15 percent or so of that spending.

[Q] Playboy: You marched with Martin Luther King Jr. in Selma in 1965. What's your prognosis on race relations?

[A] Rangel: Constantly improving. I could never believe the hatred and threats that my grandfather was subjected to when he was in Accomac, Virginia. And yet it bothers me that people are not prepared to say that the pains and the scars of slavery are not still here. Just being born white is an affirmative action. A lot of kids, because of their color, don't think as much of themselves as they should and therefore don't progress as fast as they should. We have a long way to go in this country, but blacks love this country like no other people. They don't have their own culture or their own names, but they have just the same hopes and dreams. You shouldn't need affirmative action, but you need it now. A classic example is Atlanta, which had as much prejudice as any Southern city, but once we had the Voting Rights Act--once they were able to elect black officials--you found the mutual respect Atlantans had for one another. My wife is from Florida, and she has said that, culturally speaking, she has more in common with white Southerners than she does with black Northerners.

[Q] Playboy: You're regarded as something of a wit in Congress, where members love to tell stories from back home. Can you honor us with a Rangelism?

[A] Rangel: Everything I've said I've stolen from somebody else. Years ago we had a true wit in Mo Udall. Once, he came to the well and said that everything that could be said about the bill in question had already been said. The House went up in cheers--until we heard him say, "But not everyone has said it." It was two o'clock in the morning. I use that line a lot when I'm the last speaker.

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[Q] Playboy: It's rumored that Hillary Rodham Clinton owes the idea of running for a New York Senate seat to Charles Rangel. Does the mantle of power broker rest lightly upon your shoulders?

[A] Rangel: I like that question. I'll respond with a Rangelism: For seven years I courted my wife and I still believe it was her idea to get married. I was one of Hillary Clinton's strongest supporters. When she hadn't made up her mind as to what she was going to do, I was able to visit with people in labor, fund-raisers, state party leaders and members of the Democratic congressional delegation. There was excitement over the possibility of her running.

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[Q] Playboy: On a recent episode of The West Wing, President Josiah Bartlet finds himself dealing with an African American congressman from New York who is a member of the Ways and Means Committee and who wants to reinstate the draft. Do you think you can trump Al Gore's claim that he and Tipper served as models for Love Story?

[A] Rangel: I saw that clip. That show comes on Wednesday night, and that is the worst night in the world for us, because it's the big legislative night. If you want to watch it you have to leave the House floor. Some members have it taped because they like it so much. They vicariously live through it. Well, I don't know where they're going with this damn congressman they got. But maybe if he ends up being appointed to the presidency like Bush, we could work out something.

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[Q] Playboy: We've heard reports about bad feelings across the aisle in Congress. Do you find them overblown?

[A] Rangel: Newt Gingrich came in with a slash-and-burn attitude. He demonized the Democrats and he was successful in getting moderate Republicans to think along more conservative lines. Before Gingrich a thin line separated Republicans and Democrats. We would travel together. We'd work together. We'd have friendships. You don't find this with the newer members, because they fight so hard in terms of ideology. The Republicans have fewer hearings on issues, which means committees meet less often. There's less communication, so we don't know one another as people. When you had [Democrat] Tip O'Neill and the Republican leadership of Bob Michel, you found strong political differences but no personality problems.

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[Q] Playboy: You regularly appear on television talk shows hosted by outspoken conservatives. Does Charlie Rangel get a thrill out of entering the lion's den?.

[A] Rangel: I don't like Democrats being pushed around. If you don't show up, they're going to talk about you. If you do show up, you may not win, but more often than not, no matter how mean-spirited they appear, when you're in the commercial break, they will let you know they're happy that you're making a show for them. Right-wing people get so excited and angry with me, I increase their ratings.