Playboy Interview: Kanye West

"White people, this is your only chance to use the word 'nigger,'" Kanye West shouts to the Theater at Madison Square Garden crowd roaring the words to "Gold Digger," the biggest rap hit of the past year. "Take advantage of it."

That snapshot from West's recent tour sums up the wit and audacity of the 28-year-old rapper and producer. The chorus of the song--"I ain't saying she a gold digger/But she ain't messing with no broke niggers"--is not only as catchy as bird flu, it's also a provocative comment about money, race and sex. A one-man smash factory who has produced songs for Alicia Keys, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Ludacris, Talib Kweli, John Legend, Common, Cam'ron and Jay-Z, West doesn't back down from any topic--or from the spotlight.

Last September, during NBC's live broadcast of a benefit concert for Hurricane Katrina victims, West burst the apolitical cue-card solemnity, denouncing the media for referring to black New Orleanians as looters and alleging that the government had been slow to respond, because those in need were mostly black. His digression was full of pauses and incomplete sentences, and co-presenter Mike Myers stood by in silent panic. After Myers interjected a few lines from the Teleprompter, West distilled his argument to its pith: "George Bush doesn't care about black people." NBC instantly cut away and excised the dangerous moment from a rebroadcast later that night on the West Coast, but the clip was kept alive on the Internet, where bloggers called West everything from a racist to a hero to a self-promoting profiteer.

His name, pronounced KAHN-yay, means "the only one" in Swahili, and he's the lone child of Donda West, who recently retired as chair of the English department at Chicago State University, and Ray West, a photographer and former Black Panther who is now a Christian counselor. When Kanye was three, his parents split up. He was raised primarily by his doting mother, and his father has said, Kanye "displayed his charisma even in day care."

He first wrote rhymes in third grade and four years later began to make beats, the produced tracks rappers rhyme over. He won an art scholarship but dropped out of college, lived at home and continued to struggle until 2001, the year of his personal tipping point: Jay-Z picked five West tracks for his CD The Blueprint, including "Izzo (H.O.V.A.)," which used a Jackson 5 sample to (over)popularize the phrase "fo' shizzle my nizzle."

West's beats were vivid and brassy, and he helped even the dullest rappers get on the radio. But when he told Jay-Z and other decision makers at Roc-A-Fella Records that he wanted to rap, they snickered with reverse class snobbery. West came from a comfortable background and had no firsthand knowledge of drug dealing or weaponry; he was cute, wore pastel polo shirts with the collars turned up and couldn't have been more the opposite of 50 Cent, rap's biggest star of the past few years.

The record label finally relented, and West began to work with his customary industriousness. Driving from a studio one night in October 2002, he fell asleep and crashed his car, fracturing his jaw. With his mouth still wired shut, he recorded "Through the Wire," one of four hit singles on his first CD, The College Dropout. They are songs of celebration and mourning, with comedy as the lone constant; in "Slow Jamz" he talks about using old soul records to seduce women and drops a great joke at Michael Jackson's expense. But the album has as many wise cracks as wisecracks. In "Jesus Walks," West confesses both his sins and his devotion to Jesus, and "All Falls Down" traces young blacks' appetites for expensive sneakers and gold-heavy watches to insecurity: "We all self-conscious/I'm just the first to admit it." As it turned out, there was a big market for a rapper who'd never sold drugs. The best-reviewed album of 2004, The College Dropout sold 3 million copies and earned 10 Grammy nominations. The world suddenly gave West as much adulation as he said he deserved.

For Late Registration, released in August 2005, West added a co-producer, Jon Brion, a white Angeleno best known for working with Fiona Apple. No other rapper would have risked such an audacious move, and it paid off with even more raves. "There's never been hip-hop so complex and subtle musically," wrote The Village Voice, while The New Yorker claimed the album "encompasses decades of African American music." Late Registration broke West fully into the mainstream--from the cover of Time magazine to a place among Barbara Walters's 10 Most Fascinating People of 2005.

While West was on tour, Playboy sent writer Rob Tannenbaum to interview him; the two began their discussion backstage at a De Kalb, Illinois concert hall, then continued it later at a Manhattan studio. Tannenbaum reports, "West's mind leaps around unpredictably, so in the course of our conversations he told me about the suede jacket he was wearing ('It's Yves Saint Laurent'), the music video he was editing with animator Bill Plympton and his 2,700-square-foot loft in So Ho, which has a 16-foot walk-in closet and a 12-foot bathroom sink.

"He says some pretty outrageous things, usually about how great he is, but it's a welcome antidote to the false modesty most stars put across. And it's clear he subscribes to the playful theory of Muhammad Ali: 'It's not bragging if you can back it up.'

"But it's also clear how seriously he takes his work. 'I really study rap,' he said, and he can keenly analyze changing trends in the arcane field of rhyming couplets. And he played at shatteringly high volume a new beat he'd written for Jay-Z, a simple, monstrous thing with a resounding cymbal. 'That beat is killing,' he said. 'Just think of that with Jay on it.' Along the way, he announced he had lured Jay-Z out of retirement. And no wonder: West really is that great. Just ask him."

[Q] Playboy: Let's start with the seven words that made national headlines: "George Bush doesn't care about black people." Had you planned on saying that, or was it an ad-lib?

[A] West: I've never been asked this question before, but I totally didn't plan to say it. I planned the bullet points about the media portraying black people as looters and how it took the government so long to go down there to help. Bad news is great news, and I felt like CNN, NBC and all these stations were capitalizing on the tragedy.

[Q] Playboy: Describe what led to your making that statement.

[A] West: Tim McGraw did a song, and it was really emotional, showing all the imagery from New Orleans. When I went up to read the Teleprompter, I just thought what was on it wasn't heartfelt enough. They wanted me to read some random point about the levees. Mike Myers and I talked about how we had a problem with that word. He said, "I just don't want to mispronounce levees." That was his main goal when we went up there. He was already nervous, and I told him, "Yo, I might stray off the Teleprompter a little bit." I told him I was going to ad-lib. I was talking to him backstage, and I saw Chris Tucker. I remember telling Chris, "Get ready for live TV."

[Q] Playboy: Did Myers say anything when you got off camera?

[A] West: He shook my hand and said, "It is what it is."

[Q] Playboy: What kind of greeting did you get backstage?

[A] West: The Red Cross and the NBC execs didn't say anything to me. They acted like I wasn't even in the building. Before that, it was all VIP.

[Q] Playboy: How did the day end?

[A] West: At the bar, taking shots of Patrón. [laughs] You know, if you go up and hit the class bully in his face, you're like, "What am I going to do tomorrow?" I still live in a country that George Bush controls.

[Q] Playboy: When NBC broadcast the telethon on the West Coast, it cut your comment about the president.

[A] West: I thought that was great because it proved my point about the media. It let America know that the media still censors us and monitors us and brainwashes us. For them to chop it, everybody in America was like, "Oh shit, they still do that? I thought this was America." Yeah, this is America. This is America.

[Q] Playboy: Did the reaction surprise you?

[A] West: A lot of people feel that Bush doesn't care about poor people. It's a common opinion.

[Q] Playboy: But you didn't say he doesn't care about poor people; you said he doesn't care about black people. There's a difference.

[A] West: There just happen to be way more poor black people. If you pick at the statement, I'm sure you could find something wrong, but that was the overall feeling of America at the time.

[Q] Playboy: Entertainers don't often really speak their mind, especially not on live TV.

[A] West: And entertainers who would say what they're thinking wouldn't be given that opportunity on live TV. Networks are more apt to put a five-second delay on me now. They didn't really listen to "All Falls Down" and "Jesus Walks" and "Crack Music." They just heard the hooks. They didn't hear what I was saying about social issues. With my polo collars popped, they never saw me coming.

[Q] Playboy: There's an element of social awareness to your music but also a party element. They probably thought they were going to get the second guy.

[A] West: I bet they wouldn't have put Dave Chappelle up there. But that's who I am: I'm like the rap version of Chappelle.

[Q] Playboy: What's the similarity?

[A] West: He talks about serious things, but he makes you laugh to keep from crying. The humor is the honey in the medicine.

[Q] Playboy: Actually Chappelle's been doing a joke about you: "I gotta give props to my man Kanye West because he said some real shit. That took a lot of bravery and a lot of strength. I'm proud of Kanye. And I'm gonna miss him so much."

[A] West:[Laughs] Oh shit. That's why we were popping Patrón that night.

[Q] Playboy: Laura Bush denounced your comment as disgusting, and Bill O'Reilly said it was "simply nutty" and called you a "dopey little rapper." Did any of the criticism bother you?

[A] West: I didn't even know that until now. I care as much about Bill O'Reilly as I care about somebody at my show who goes to the bathroom during "Jesus Walks." I'm not going to stop the song; I'm not going to stop my show. Matter of fact, I need to never say his name again, because I'm making him too hot right now.

[Q] Playboy: He does love to pick on rappers.

[A] West: He can't pick on us. He picks at us. We're like statues. He picks at pop-culture icons, which is what we rappers are right now, like modern-day royalty.

[Q] Playboy: Did anything about the coverage of your comments bother you?

[A] West: People kept misquoting me and using incorrect English: [in an exaggerated dialect] "George Bush don't be carin' 'bout no black people." And I'm like, "I didn't say that."

[Q] Playboy: Has the comment hurt you in any way? It seems you got a lot of publicity from it.

[A] West: I wouldn't say it was the smartest business move. At this point I'm not going to say any more things that could be harmful to me.

[Q] Playboy: So we shouldn't ask for your position on the war in Iraq or Supreme Court nominees?

[A] West: I'm not into politics at all. I can't even name the people in politics. That's not what I do. I've learned from this how powerful my voice is. It's like going to your bank to take out $20 and seeing $1 million in your account. You're like, "Oh shit, what am I gonna do with this?" Now I know my voice is powerful, and I just try to use it wisely.

[Q] Playboy: During the telethon, you announced you were going to donate "the biggest amount I can give." So how much did you donate?

[A] West: I would never tell you that. I called my business manager, and I was like, "Yo, what's the most I can give?" And that's what we gave.

[Q] Playboy: You won't name an amount?

[A] West: I'll just say it's way more than I would have made in a year if I'd gone to college and gotten my doctorate.

[Q] Playboy: Before your career as a rapper, you were one of the biggest producers in hip-hop. How good a rapper are you? The New Yorker described you as "merely average," and Entertainment Weekly said you have a "clunky flow."

[A] West: I'm nowhere near as good as Jay-Z, Eminem or Nas. So I compensate.

[Q] Playboy: How do you compensate?

[A] West: With star power, sheer energy, entertainment, videos, really good outfits and overwhelmingly, ridiculously dope tracks. Justin Timberlake isn't the best singer, but he's a true star, the entire package. The main thing I use to make up for my lack of rapping skills is my content, my subject matter.

[Q] Playboy: What's an example?

[A] West: I'll use words or rhymes no other rapper has used. [raps] "Take your diamonds and throw 'em up like you're bulimic/Yeah, the beat cold, but the flow is anemic." Damn, nobody would ever rhyme those two words together. When they come up with a hip-hop curriculum, I want my raps to be in the textbooks.

[Q] Playboy: Some people say you just rap about clothes and brand names.

[A] West: How could someone possibly say all I do is rap about brands, when my biggest songs don't even really mention them? If someone says that, it's blatantly stupid, and I refuse to argue with a stupid person because from a distance you can't tell who's who.

[Q] Playboy: If you're trying to raise people up with your music, why use so many brand names?

[A] West: I really do care about the music itself, but I also care about superficial consumer shit. I really like Atlanta strippers--like, a lot. I really like Louis Vuitton. I have multicolor trunks stacked up in my loft in New York.

[Q] Playboy: Fine, you have Louis Vuitton in your apartment. But why put it in your songs?

[A] West: What is it they say? "Great art is met with mediocre initial response." It's the same. If I throw some Gucci and Louis on top of a song that means something, I get your attention. And it comes from the heart. It hurt to be at the Gucci store with a girlfriend, acting like I was going to try on something, and she was busting me because I didn't have enough money for it. [raps] "Back when Gucci was the shit to rock/Back when Slick Rick got the shit to pop/I'd do anything to say I got it/Damn, them new loafers hurt my pocket." Any person who loves clothes is going to hear that and be like, "Yo, I feel him." Like when I say, "We're all self-conscious/I'm just the first to admit it," many people relate to it.

[Q] Playboy: 50 Cent says you owe your success to him because people wanted a rapper who didn't wear a bulletproof jacket and have bullet scars.

[A] West: There was no successful black artist who was like a regular person and also liked cars and clothes. That was my niche. On The College Dropout, the songs offer melody and message. That's the main goal. I saw it as a simple math project: If I can rap 70 to 80 percent as good as the beats are, I'll be successful.

[Q] Playboy: Why are your songs so much more successful than other rap songs?

[A] West: Choruses and hooks. That's why the Black Eyed Peas' "My Humps" is a killer. That song is just constant hooks all the way. See, people think a chorus is the only hook, but "Gold Digger" has so many hooks in it. Jamie's intro, that's a hook. The drum intro, that's a hook. "I ain't sayin' she a gold digger"; that's a hook. The entire second verse is a hook: "18 years, 18 years." That could be a chorus! "We want prenup"; that's a hook. And the white-girl line? That's why I get the big bucks. That's bottom of the ninth, bases loaded, World Series. That's gold.

[Q] Playboy: At the end of "Gold Digger," you say, "When you get on, he'll leave your ass for a white girl."

[A] West: It uses profanity, and it's shocking and controversial and fucked-up and funny. It's so perfect and out of the park. It touches on social anxieties and over-compensation and racial tension. Black people say, "Yeah, that does happen." At one of my concerts I saw white girls with T-shirts that read he'll leave your ass for a white girl. Like, "Yay!" They're very happy about that line.

[Q] Playboy: So the combination of hooks and provocation made "Gold Digger" one of the biggest songs of 2005?

[A] West: God wanted me to have "Gold Digger." You know, I made that song for someone else; I wrote it for Shawnna from Disturbing tha Peace, but she had problems clearing the sample and had to turn her album in. At the end of the day--all bullshit aside, all the shit I talk aside--God hands me these records. And Jon Brion, he was a dope-ass producer, a guy who could just sit there and check my lyrics.

[Q] Playboy: Wait. You took advice about rapping from a white piano player? Most rappers would have thrown him out of the studio.

[A] West: Right. And that's why so many people make inadequate music. I beg for criticism. I'll get 30 opinions on what's wrong with a song and fix all of those things. So when it comes out, you can't tell me shit. You can't learn anything from a compliment. I also had a poetry instructor. She was on Def Poetry Jam with me, and I was like, Yo, she is so much better than me at this. If I could apply this, I could be like a Bob Dylan, a Bob Marley, a Stevie Wonder, a Prince, a John Lennon. "Gold Digger" is straight poetry. I'd like to state this, and fuck whoever tells me I can't word it out loud: "Gold Digger" is one of the biggest songs of our lifetime. It'll be there with "In da Club" and "When Doves Cry."

[Q] Playboy: Do you expect to win the Grammy for record of the year on February 8?

[A] West: For all I know, I'm not going to win one Grammy this year. You know, I talked a lot of shit last year. When I got the 10 nominations for the 2005 awards, I said, "I'm the face of the Grammys." I thought that was really funny. But it was true at the end of the day. The older voters might have been like--What's my boy's name from the L.A. Times? Bill? Bob?

[Q] Playboy: Robert Hilburn. He was the Los Angeles Times music critic for 35 years.

[A] West: Yeah. He wrote this dope article, saying, "Grammy credibility, for the second year in a row, revolves around a single artist: Kanye West." For the 2006 awards the only people I would accept defeating me for album of the year would be System of a Down, and they didn't get nominated. I made a really good album, but how do I word this? I'm not trying to dis people, but there weren't that many really, really good albums. You know, if you're a championship team, it feels better if tine series goes seven games, but this year it's a straight four-game blowout. What albums would be up against me?

[Q] Playboy: If you had Grammy voters right here, what would you say to them about why you deserve album of the year?

[A] West: First thing I'd say is "Don't worry about all the things I say in the media. They're just true." [laughs]

[Q] Playboy: Having gone to a few of your concerts, we've noticed you have more white fans than most rappers.

[A] West: I always wanted to make raps that could be respected in the barbershop but that an old white lady could also understand. So I'm Jadakiss meets Will Smith.

[Q] Playboy: Does your having pop hits make it harder for some people to take your music seriously?

[A] West: You know, I'm still thinking about the whole Grammy thing. Like, my mother told me I should stop talking, but I wasn't going to stop saying I should win album of the year just so I could win album of the year. I even make it harder for myself by talking so much shit. There was a TV poll asking, "Do you think West's comment on NBC will hurt his chances at the Grammys?" And people said, "No, but the way he acted at the awards show last year will hurt hischances." [laughs]

[Q] Playboy: What did your mom say to you?

[A] West: She told me to shut the fuck up--in like a nice English-professor way.

[Q] Playboy: When your mom tells you to shut the fuck up, maybe it's time to shut the fuck up.

[A] West: Put it like this: The Grammy award is great. Everybody celebrates you, you get endorsements, and everybody looks at you like, yo, this is a really quality artist. But I celebrate awards every day by talking shit, by saying I'm going to win. Think about that. I didn't win the most Grammys last year, so I would have done myself a disservice not to talk shit when I had the most nominations. That'd be like getting a fucking star in Super Mario Bros. and just walking at a regular pace instead of running around. When you get that star, go and kill as many mushrooms as possible.

[Q] Playboy: Still, having pop hits must have drawbacks.

[A] West: I want my music to be as real as possible. With the Black Eyed Peas, I feel their music is pure and honest, but I don't think it's perceived as that.

[Q] Playboy: That's the second time you've said something good about the Black Eyed Peas.

[A] West: I love the Black Eyed Peas!

[Q] Playboy: We've always wondered what rapper would risk his reputation to defend them.

[A] West: You know, I speak up about whatever I'm feeling, whether it's a common opinion or not. I think they're talented, and I argue with people about them all the time. Well, see, I didn't need to say I have to argue with people, because now they'll read this and feel a little bad about it. It's like when people come up to me in an airport and say, "Yo, man, I argue with people all the time. I try to tell them you not no bitch-ass nigga."

[Q] Playboy: How do you reply to that?

[A] West: I say, "Thank you, I appreciate that. Thank you for telling me you have to argue with people all the time." [laughs] You don't want to hear that at eight o'clock in the morning. It implies that everybody's saying bad stuff about me. They'll say, "Well, I thought you were arrogant because I read some article about you."

[Q] Playboy: Why would people think you are arrogant?

[A] West: Because of how the media portrays me.

[Q] Playboy: Come on, Kanye. If people think you're arrogant, it's not only because of how the media portrays you. You've got some arrogance in you.

[A] West: Nah, I might have some cockiness. It's always a conflict: Maybe I'm more self-conscious than I am self-confident, and self-consciousness is what makes me ask 30 different people for their opinions. I overcompensate for my anxieties.

[Q] Playboy: But you even refer to yourself as "the international asshole" in one song.

[A] West: That's just playing into what people believe. Like, okay, people have this perception; let's fuck with it a little bit. Here is a statement that will come off as arrogant: I almost wish I could not be me for a day, just so I could be entertained by the shit I say. [laughs] You know, that's a good beginning for a rap. It even rhymes. I need to put that in a rap.

[Q] Playboy: Let's talk about your background. Describe the street you grew up on.

[A] West: All over the world, actually. I stayed in China an entire year when I was in fifth grade. I stayed in different places growing up in Chicago, all the way from the inner-city South Side, which was gang-populated, to the suburbs, which were gang-populated, to even further suburbs, also gang-populated. In Chicago you're not getting away from the gangs.

[Q] Playboy: Were you in gangs?

[A] West: No. I was always focused on something creative. It would seem like I was in my own world. I'm sure you'd say I was special.

[Q] Playboy: In what way were you special?

[A] West: Well, I grew up to become me.

[Q] Playboy: Okay, but what was special about you at the age of 10?

[A] West: I was a performer and a ham and just wanted to entertain. I would always ask questions; I was never good with "Because I told you so." And I hate when parents try to stop their kids from asking questions. Kids should ask as many questions as possible. Whenever I'm around somebody I admire, I question them to death.

[Q] Playboy: Were you funny-looking? Didn't you have braces?

[A] West: Not until high school. People in my family would act like my teeth were okay, but whenever we were talking about each other, that would be the main joke. I went to a girlfriend's house, and her neighbor's sister said, "Your teeth are big and white just like horse teeth." I said, "Fuck this." When I got braces, the orthodontist had to remove eight teeth. And I've got a big mouth! So imagine how big my teeth were.

[Q] Playboy: You're very close to your mother. Would it be fair to say you were a mama's boy?

[A] West: Yeah, I'd say so. My dad had a lot of influence too.

[Q] Playboy: He was a Black Panther, and to a lot of people that means a militant, Afrocentric separatist.

[A] West: He wasn't a separatist. We lived in an all-white neighborhood. It's funny. He was like, "I don't want anybody to know I'm a Black Panther." He was a military brat, so he was raised around white people, but they didn't like him because he was black. Then he'd go around black people, and they didn't like him because he talked white. It was hard for him, and he was always looking for a home or a movement, something to be part of.

[Q] Playboy: It sounds as if you had a happy childhood even though your parents divorced.

[A] West: Yeah, I used that to my advantage. I'd ask Mom for something, then ask Dad for something.

[Q] Playboy: Were you a spoiled only child?

[A] West: I was taught a lot about morals and values. My father or stepfather would have me cutting the grass while everybody else was playing basketball. Or my mother would buy me only two pairs of shoes a year when she could afford to buy a pair of shoes every month. That made me appreciate stuff. And it made me feel a want or a need for stuff. So now when I buy clothes, I really do feel fulfilled. Like a little kid who always wanted to go to Disney World: You go to Disney World, and it's great. So Gucci is like Disney World for me.

[Q] Playboy: But there must have been something bothering you as a kid, because you were a bed wetter.

[A] West: Yeah, I don't want to talk about that.

[Q] Playboy: Why not? You even mention it in a song.

[A] West:[Silence, shakes head]

[Q] Playboy: Okay, so tell us about your grandfather Portwood Williams. He was involved in the civil-rights movement in Oklahoma in 1958, which you refer to in "Never Let Me Down."

[A] West: He's just a great figure in Oklahoma City. He's got monuments and stuff. Yeah, he's the number-one stunner. He'll start off a sentence by saying, "I am the master," the same way other people would say "Hello" or "How are you?" He loves having me as a grandson. He'll be like, "Yo, my grandson is Kanye."

[Q] Playboy: It's easy to see where you got your confidence.

[A] West: But he's way more eloquent. People say I'm a good speaker for a rapper, but I fall short. I can't talk after Barack Obama or Oprah Winfrey. Ninety percent of the time I fall short of my goal. I want my concert to be as stunning as U2's or Michael Jackson's. People say my show is great, but I know it's not as good as that Talking Heads DVD I just saw, Stop Making Sense. See, I threw out that Talking Heads reference to sound like I know a lot about music.

[Q] Playboy: You keep revising many of your songs until the last possible second. Isn't that a difficult way to work?

[A] West: I envy people who settle for mediocrity. Right when Late Registration was about to come out, I was driving myself crazy. The years I'm losing off my life stressing out about a drum sound are the reason people can go to the store and purchase albums of the caliber of Late Registration. My pain is everyone else's pleasure. Everything I worry about is a gift I give to the world. I can't say I perfected my album, but any song that's perfect would be bad because imperfection is a quality people relate to.

[Q] Playboy: Is that why you sing on your records?

[A] West: Are you asking me if I sing to make my records worse? [laughs] Yeah. I was singing on the original version of "Heard 'Em Say," and I felt like it was making it too "worse." I used incorrect English on purpose--just put worse in quotation marks.

[Q] Playboy: In "Drive Slow" you talk about being a teenage virgin. How old were you when you lost your virginity?

[A] West:[To girlfriend] Can you please leave the room? [she leaves] I was 17, which is remarkably late by our standards. I think my game was wack.

[Q] Playboy: So who took your virginity?

[A] West: She was my girlfriend, and she had great titties, even by my standards today. She had a bit of a gut, though. I wouldn't fuck with that now. She was short, like five-foot-four, with 36Ds. And the nipples were almost the same color as the skin. I used to love those fucking titties. I'd stare at them.

[Q] Playboy: Your game has gotten a lot better in the past few years. Are you taking advantage of your fame?

[A] West: In between having a girlfriend, sure, but I don't really wild out. I'll show you some of my girlfriends' pictures on a website as long as you don't print the name of it. If I were to tell you, "Yo, I did this and this," it might be a little bit tasteless coming from me.

[Q] Playboy: You graduated from high school in 1995, and your breakthrough was Jay-Z's The Blueprint, which came out in 2001. What were you doing in between those years?

[A] West: I went to college for a year and a half. I worked a telemarketing job, selling insurance to people who bought stuff with a Montgomery Ward credit card. I was way better than most of the people there. I could sit around and draw pictures, basically do other shit while I was reading the Teleprompter. [laughs] Even back then I would stray from the Teleprompter.

[Q] Playboy: You've also been producing since you were in seventh grade. Were you able to sell the tracks you made?

[A] West: I was hustling beats, selling them to local drug dealers for $200 or $250. I had a platinum plaque when I was 19 for working on Jermaine Dupri's first album. I was making $60,000 or $70,000 a year by the age of 20 or 21.

[Q] Playboy: But you had a lot of frustration, too. Your career stalled.

[A] West: I couldn't make ends meet. You're chasing dreams, you want something so bad, you're so close to it. I remember me and Just Blaze would have beats on the same album, and six months later he'd have 20 more beats sold and I'd have one beat sold. And it hurt. Like, damn, I thought we were the same caliber. But he could buy whatever he wanted, and I wasn't sure I could pay the rent.

[Q] Playboy: Even though you couldn't pay the rent, you were telling people you'd be bigger than Michael Jackson.

[A] West: I didn't say that all the time, but I remember telling executives at Sony that.

[Q] Playboy: That's awfully cocky for a guy who had nothing.

[A] West: Hey, you gotta dream big. What's the point in saying, "I'm gonna be bigger than Tito Jackson"?

[Q] Playboy: For a guy with that much confidence, it must have been a shock to struggle at selling your music.

[A] West: I had one nervous breakdown I talk about on "Touch the Sky," when I busted out crying. My girlfriend and I were in a room together, listening to the first Lil' Kim CD, Hard Core. I would listen to Lil' Kim, then listen to my beat--another Lil' Kim song, then my beat. It sounded like the same caliber to me, but I couldn't sell a fucking beat. And I just stood next to that stereo and busted out crying and shaking. I didn't have control of my body, didn't have control of my emotions. It didn't make any sense. If I could have sold even one beat, that $7,500 would have meant so much to me. I was living in New York, 600 miles from home, and had $300 in my bank account. You should never have less in your account than how far you are from your crib.

[Q] Playboy: Once you were established as a producer, what kind of response did you get when you told people you wanted to rap, too?

[A] West: So many people thought I was wack.

[Q] Playboy: Well, rappers are supposed to be from the hood. You grew up middle-class in the suburbs. Jay-Z says he didn't believe in you because you weren't ghetto.

[A] West: Yeah, but also my raps were trying to be ghetto. They didn't believe that, coming from me. I had to figure out my niche.

[Q] Playboy: Can we hear one of your ghetto rhymes?

[A] West: It was something like "I got the platinum chain to show you what my stacks is about/And a platinum gat to back up what I'm rapping about." It was good wordplay. Some people believed in me. They thought the shit was pretty hot. People always talk about how bad my raps were, but if you go back and listen to them, they're better than a lot of shit that's out today.

[Q] Playboy: So when did people start to believe in you?

[A] West: With "Slow Jamz," when you heard the line "She got a light-skinned friend look like Michael Jackson/Got a dark-skinned friend look like Michael Jackson," you all knew you were dealing with a star. That is one of the greatest punch lines in rap history.

[Q] Playboy: Let's talk about your car accident. You fell asleep at the wheel when you were making The College Dropout.

[A] West: Okay. Damn, there is a lot of interesting stuff that happened to me.

[Q] Playboy: When you came to, what did you see in the mirror?

[A] West: I saw my mouth getting bigger and bigger, like in a horror movie. My jaw was separated, and inside it was broken open. I was in the car for like 10 minutes before anybody got there, and I called my girlfriend and my mother to apologize for hurting myself. I didn't know if I was going to be able to rap again. I'd been working so hard to do this album--I already had "All Falls Down" and 'Jesus Walks."

[Q] Playboy: What happened when you got to the emergency room?

[A] West: Man, that was a bad experience. The things they had to do to support my jaw were just hurting it worse. This one lady kept on talking to me. I said, "Why are you (continued on page 132)Kanye West(continued from page 54) talking to me? Can't you see my mouth is fucked-up?" But she kept on having me talk. You know how they keep you talking so you don't die or something? But it was like they were about to make me die--talk me to death, literally.

[Q] Playboy: And you say the accident was good for your career. How?

[A] West: That's one of the best things that can happen to a rapper, to almost die. Tupac, 50 Cent and now me. People connected with that.

[Q] Playboy: It made you seem a little tougher. People don't usually think of you as tough.

[A] West: I'm not a tough guy, but I'm a strong person. Rap music innately has to be hard. But we've changed what it means to be hard because life itself is hard. I've started presenting the hardship of regular people's lives. Hard isn't always "I went to jail" or "I have to shoot somebody. I'm gonna kill somebody today." Hard is anything: "I have a test to take." All I did was see the open lane.

[Q] Playboy: The reaction to The College Dropout wasn't quite instant acclaim.

[A] West: When it first came out, I was frustrated that people didn't believe in me. That's when you would read quotes that came off as more arrogant or defensive than funny. Now I don't have to be defensive at all. When people try to attack me, it's like, Come on, fam. What else do you need me to do?

[Q] Playboy:Late Registration has some conspiracy-theory lyrics. Do you believe the government is spreading AIDS, as you suggest in "Heard 'Em Say"?

[A] West: Right now? No. But I do believe the theory that AIDS was being placed in Africa. I do believe the FBI placed crack in the black community. I believe the U.S. government gave smallpox to the Indians. I believe financial institutions are capitalizing on the African AIDS epidemic.

[Q] Playboy: Not all of those theories are equally credible. What's your source for the government starting AIDS in Africa?

[A] West: You know what? I don't have the answer to that. Life isn't a big test in which I have to know the answer right now. People always want me to say things in black-and-white. "What's your answer to this?" So many people hang on every word I say. I feel like I'm in Forrest Gump, the scene when he's running and everybody's coming up alongside him, asking, "What do you think about this?" He steps in shit and says, "Shit happens," and then there are bumper stickers. That's my life right now.

[Q] Playboy: What would we find if we drug-tested you?

[A] West: Does alcohol show up? You'd find some Hennessy, some Belvedere and that's it. The only drug I've done is weed. I used to smoke weed like every day. I hated it, though. It gave me a headache. But I'm really intrigued by the 1980s white yuppie cocaine culture. That was an inspiration for Late Registration: white modern buildings, leather jackets, Lamborghinis, model bitches, all that. I wanted to make die album darker and sexier than the first one. I don't do any other form of drug. My only drug is porn.

[Q] Playboy: What's your taste in porn?

[A] West: Elegant Angel is pretty good, and the Brazilian joints are crazy.

[Q] Playboy: Are you unapologetic about porn? Do you play it in front of your girlfriend?

[A] West: Yeah, I'll just keep it on. That's one of the old pimp moves: If the girl comes over, have porn playing. If she's like, "Ugh," hurry up and turn it off. "Man, I don't know who left that on!" And if she says, "Hmm, what's this?" then keep it playing, keep it playing, [laughs]

[Q] Playboy: Not everyone admits to liking porn.

[A] West: We all like porn; I'm just the first to admit it. I could show you examples of some things I like.

[Q] Playboy: Let's look at the bookmarks on your laptop: "Ass man's paradise," "Mexican lust."

[A] West: I have normal conversations all the time while I'm looking at these sites. If this were a phone interview, I'd probably be looking at porn. It's an addiction. Whenever we go to the porn store, we call it the crack house. And I stash my porn just like someone would stash weed, in a baggie. Here, these are some really good ones.

[Q] Playboy: Let's see what you've got in the bag. Ghetto Booty. Housewives Gone Black, Part 3. She's Got Ass, Part 9. My Daughter Is Fucking Blackzilla. All That Ass Brazil 30. Black and Wild, Volume 18.

[A] West: This girl's incredible. See that? Playboy would never have that. I don't think Playboy has enough ass. But the best girl you had in the past three years has to be Rita G., the Spanish girl. She's got an ass even white people like.

[Q] Playboy: One of your biggest songs is 'Jesus Walks." Is Jesus happy with you?

[A] West: God is. I personally believe Jesus died for our sins, because that's the way I was raised. Same reason I like fat asses: That's how I was raised. If I had been raised in an all-white community, maybe I'd like skinny asses. I try to walk and be more Christlike. I'm a man, and I have shortcomings. But I think if there were a bible written today in the new millennium, I'd be one of the characters in it.

[Q] Playboy: What role would you play in this bible?

[A] West: I'd be a griot. I bring up historical subjects in a way that makes kids want to learn about them. I'm an inspirational speaker. I changed the sound of music more than onetime: I did it with The Blueprint, did it again with The College Dropout. For all these reasons, I'd be a part of die bible. I'm definitely in the history books already. "Jesus Walks"--that song will never go away.

[Q] Playboy: Is the devil trying to get you too?

[A] West: Always. Let's take it back to Atlanta, back to the strippers. You know, when Marvin Gaye made "Sexual Healing," it was a fun song, but he really did have a problem with sex. And I think I might have a problem, a sexual addiction. I have porn on me at all times.

[Q] Playboy: Haven't you mostly been in relationships for the past few years?

[A] West: Lust is part of the reason I've been out of relationships, too. I just want to do it all the time. All the time. Like four times a night. And then in the morning.

[Q] Playboy: Are you bothered by your addictions?

[A] West: In "Touch the Sky," I say, "I'm trying to right my wrongs/But it's funny them same wrongs help me write this song." Those addictions and afflictions are what make me a great artist. If I were perfect, if I didn't have any conflicts, what would I have to say? My biggest problem is lust, looking at girls with big booties.

[Q] Playboy: You're one of the few rappers who have spoken out against homophobia. How did that go over?

[A] West: I got more backlash for that than I did for my George Bush comment. I said it's wrong to discriminate against gays, to call them fags and to gay bash. And people were like, "We don't agree with you. We feel like it's okay to do that." What I said about Bush was just popular opinion, but homophobia is so taboo to talk about. If you bring it up, people say you must be gay, and then they hate you also. In the black community, not just in rap, it's a thing people stay away from. They mention gays only in a negative way, even if they have a gay cousin or they know the choir director. And I had to learn from experience. I felt like it was okay to say "fag."

[Q] Playboy: In the past you used the word fag in your songs.

[A] West: Yeah, I'm sure I did. Even to this day I'm dealing with my personal homophobia. I'm not gay, and I don't feel comfortable in a gay bar. I wouldn't be at a gay parade.

[Q] Playboy: It's possible to be opposed to gay bashing but still feel some homophobia.

[A] West: Yeah, like I think it's wrong to lust, but I still end up at the strip club.

[Q] Playboy: What hip-hop trend would you like to see die?

[A] West: Hip-hop trends die on their own. That's like going to a senior citizens' home and asking, "Who do you want to die?" Yo, they're all going to die pretty soon! That's what hip-hop is about. At the point when my albums become classic, they transcend hip-hop. Because hip-hop is about being fresh.

[Q] Playboy: You said earlier that you were making $70,000 a year when you were 21. How much have you made in the past year?

[A] West: Millions. With a real long s at the end. Yeah, millionsssssss.

[Q] Playboy: Here's one number we heard. A movie studio paid $700,000 for the use of "Jesus Walks" in Jarhead.

[A] West: Let me check with my lawyer. So add that up, that's one thing, and I have multiple movie offers and multiple shows. But I need to figure out a way to make more.

[Q] Playboy: You're not making enough money?

[A] West: No, I'm not. Not to do all the things I want to do creatively. Now that I can get pretty much anything I want for myself, I want to show people art. I want people to know about the architecture in Prague. I'd like to purchase a castle in Europe and renovate it. I want to design buildings. I want to produce movies and have complete ownership so I don't have to run ideas by people. I'm meeting with the biggest movie director in the game. I don't want to say his name.

[Q] Playboy: Well, the biggest director in Hollywood is Steven Spielberg. Is that who you're meeting with?

[A] West: Okay, yeah. And I'm writing a TV show with Rick Rubin and Larry Charles, who wrote Seinfeld with Larry David. So it's like the real shit. I've been talking to Ben Stiller about some things. This year I met with the Steves: Stevie Wonder, Steve Jobs and Steven Spielberg. I'm going to the Kanye Wests of their genres.

[Q] Playboy: What about music?

[A] West: What about it? Asking me "What about music?" is like coming to Spielberg and asking him "What about movies?" This is what I do and what I will continue to do at the highest caliber possible.

[Q] Playboy: Are you producing anyone?

[A] West: I'm producing Jay-Z's new album. I'm doing the whole thing.

[Q] Playboy: Wait a minute. When we interviewed Jay-Z in Playboy three years ago, he told us he was retiring. And we made him a bet: If he comes out of retirement, he owes us $1,000.

[A] West: Well, he's about to pay.

[Q] Playboy: Rap careers come and go in a pretty short time. As you said, trends die out; even the hot producers burn out quickly. How long are you going to stick around?

[A] West: As long as I want to. I've had beats that were impactful on the culture for the past six years, and I'm not stopping anytime soon. I see things I still want to do that no one has done before. I could be the Steve Jobs of hip-hop. I'm making a beat a day, and they're coming out pretty good.

[Q] Playboy: Yeah, but in "Spaceship" you say you used to make five beats a day. You're slowing down.

[A] West: Yeah, you can put that in the story. Kanye's falling off. [laughs] He's making only one beat a day.

My mother told me to shut the fuck up--in like a nice English-professor way.

I always wanted to make raps that could be respected in the barbershop but that an old white lady could also understand. So I'm Jadakiss meets Will Smith.

People say I'm a good speaker for a rapper, but I can't talk after Barack Obama or Oprah Winfrey. Ninety percent of the time I fall short of my goal.

I'm not a tough guy, but I'm a strong person. Rap music innately has to be hard. Life itself is hard.