Straight talk expressed

Two years ago, while researching a piece for playboy, veteran political analyst and author Jeff Greenfield sat down with ex-senator Fred Thompson at Thompson's home in suburban Wash­ington to talk about, well, talk-specifi­cally, why so much political rhetoric rarely reflects simple clarity and candor. Green­field, now senior political correspondent for CBS News, spent a decade working in politics-as a speechwriter for Robert Kennedy and John Lindsay and as a politi­cal consultant-before turning full-time to journalism. His most recent book, Oh, Waiter! One Order of Crow!, is an account of the contested 2000 presidential election. The on-the-record conversation took place in September 2005, well before Thompson contemplated throwing

his hat into the presidential ring. Now that Thompson has joined the fray-with poll numbers showing him as likely a COP , nominee as any of the other / contenders-his comments ' J on why politicians should be more honest are even more timely, as well as something of a self-imposed litmus test for the candidate himself.

GREENFIELD: You are \

noted for your Southern \ charm and clear speech ^ at a time when politicians \ tend to say a lot of noth- \ ing. Do you agree that political \ discourse these days is mostly bloviating and doublespeak and of little substance?

THOMPSON: You'd have to be pretty blind not to see it, especially if you watch the

Senate floor for any period of time. It goes back to ancient Greece and Rome. It's part of the deal. In Lawrenceburg, Tennessee, where I grew

up, on Saturday people used to come to town to hear the lawyers make their grand, flowery arguments. It was entertainment. There's a great tradition of it.

GREENFIELD: Which politicians today are the worst offenders?

THOMPSON: In his days as a political officeholder Al Core was classic. He acted and behaved the way you envision a person in his position ought to act and behave. In other words, you put on your senator's cap or vice president's cap or presidential can­didate's cap. You should sound a certain way-serious and knowledgeable.

GREENFIELD: Do you agree that people are dying to hear a human voice? It's almost as if they're starving for it. THOMPSON: Yeah.

GREENFIELD: I think what got John McCain as far as he got in 2000 was a certain fear­lessness about saying what was on his mind. It's why people listened to Ross Perot. Ironically, politicians want to be liked but don't understand that their blo­viating distances them from the public. THOMPSON: Right. It doesn't work. But to get away from it you have to be willing to take a risk. If you do, you're stepping into

the unknown: "What if they don't like me? What if I'm not interesting enough? What if they don't think I'm smart enough? If I'm myself, what if it's not enough?" GREENFIELD: Given most Americans' opinion of politicians, isn't being honest worth the risk?

THOMPSON: Yes, but politicians can't afford to take too many risks. I've seen it time and again. If they let their hair down, if they came across the same way you find them in private conversation, they would be a lot more likable and a lot more successful, but it's perceived to be a risk. When 99 can-

didates are going the other way, it's a risk to be the one who speaks his mind. If politi­cians were willing to take that risk, though, they'd find it would be helpful to them. The times I did it turned out to be the smartest political moves I could have made. GREENFIELD: When have you done it? THOMPSON: One time I remember a vote about the legislation to federalize the Good Samaritan law. That law said if you stopped to help someone on the highway, they couldn't sue you. I thought this was something the states had been taking care of pretty well for 200 years. They have reasons to give partial coverage, no coverage or total coverage, depending on such factors as whether someone was helpful but also unbelievably careless. So S. my view was that the states should

\

handle it. The vote was 99 to one. I went back to the office, and the \ staff was battening down the hatches for an onslaught. It never came. I got some \ positive feedback but \ nothing negative. So back \ to the point: If you're a

1 little risky and do what you think you ought to do and say what you think you ought to say-I as long as you don't get I too carried away or say totally stupid things-it's a good political strategy, if one wanted to make a strategy of it.

GREENFIELD: Do you agree * that people who come to poli­tics from other jobs-the nonpro-fessional politicians-are more willing to be who they are? You've had careers as an actor and a law-

yer. Chuck Hagel had people shooting at him in Vietnam and then was a restaurateur. Bob Kerrey also had people shooting at him and

then had a business career. We all know John McCain's story. Bill Bradley had adu­lation on the basketball court before he could vote. You guys have this other life. If you go down 10 points in your approval rating, it isn't as if you've lost.

THOMPSON: I also think those who don't plan to be in the political game all their life can have an additional layer of inde­pendence. It's why I'm the last remaining Republican in favor of term limits. No one wants to tackle the entitlement issues and things of that nature, but eventually it's going to fall on somebody's doorstep

big-time. We'll have to do it. It's not a lack of knowledge that keeps them from being addressed; there's a lack of will. People who had a life and career before politics and may very well go back to that life have a measure of indepen­dence. That's reflected in your votes, your demeanor, your candor and your willing­ness to take some risks. GREENFIELD: Does a fickle electorate get what it deserves? THOMPSON: We bemoan the lack of can­dor, we call for candor, and then we punish it. But if you have a reputation for speak­ing off-the-cuff, people cut you some slack. People don't have a lot of regard for politicians, but they don't have a lot for reporters, either. It's an even fight. GREENFIELD: Of course, some politicians simply talk too much. I spoke to one sen­ator who told me he has gone up to Joe Biden and said, more or less, "Why don't you shut up once in a while?" THOMPSON: Joe's a good example. I have a simple theory about it: He can't help it. Why he can't help it, I don't know, but he can't. It's hard to explain. He's one of the smartest guys around, but when he puts on his senatorial hat, there is no excess he won't exceed.

GREENFIELD: Let's take a serious issue-terrorism or base closings-tough, contro­versial stuff regarding national security. For a big important issue, Congress always forms a commission-an outside, independent body-to discuss it. Why is that? These are things Congress itself is supposed to address. THOMPSON: Individual members don't go into a hearing anymore with the idea, Let's find out what happened. They go in thinking, How best can I make my case for my party? They make their long open­ing statements before any witness is heard. But this is a hearing! It's designed to find stuff out. Some of these guys never return after they make their open­ing statements. "I'm taking this oppor­tunity to let you know how I've already prejudged this matter." GREENFIELD: Don't you think people would get this by now, that it would be clear to politicians that 10-minute, toga-grabbing speeches are disastrous? By contrast, the straight shooters-people who speak clear and concise English-look good. People understand we're in a post-rhetorical age, and the fancy-dance speeches sound pompous. Why doesn't it sink in?

THOMPSON: It will when its proven to be successful. Somebody's got to break the

mold. But as I said earlier, it's perceived as highly risky. What about a politician saying, "I don't know" or "You know, I haven't really thought about that yet"? How about being honest rather than hav­ing answers for everything? I think people may like hearing the truth, someone say­ing, "I just don't know." GREENFIELD: Most politicians don't start out this way, do they? THOMPSON: Some people have been at the game for a long time and have literally forgotten what they believed. Generally, as a politician, to be success­ful in your own state, then to be suc­cessful with the caucus and then to be successful with the primary voter, you find yourself getting further and further away from the reason you ran in the first place. GREENFIELD: Ted Koppel loves to say, "The most important thing in politics is sincerity, and if you can fake that, you have it made,"

THOMPSON: Yeah, and if your primary goal in life is to balance competing con­stituents, it shows in your language and demeanor. Instead, if people risked tak­ing hard stands, they could gain some­thing even if they lost something in terms of special interest groups. I think people like me because I raised a little hell every once in a while. The more I did it, the bet­ter. It wasn't in presidential politics, but somebody has to take the risk and give the people a chance to reward real can­dor. They need an attitude that doesn't scream, "I've gotta have this job." I think that's probably the best thing Bush had. He was as scripted as anybody else, but it didn't seem as though he was. He gave the impression that he could take it or leave it. He worked like hell to create that impression.

GREENFIELD: Some people say to judge a politician, you should turn the sound down. Don't even listen. Give a 10-second look and you'll know.

THOMPSON: I decide within 30 seconds whether I like a guy. I don't know what party he is. I don't know what his beliefs are. You feel as if you know whether the guy believes what he's saying, whether he is sincere, whether he's just another manufactured politician. In the future the person who steps out from all that protective coating will have something special going for him. GREENFIELD: A couple of years ago Mike Bloomberg-now an independent-was asked if he'd ever smoked marijuana. The typical ploy is to evade it or say, "I tried it and didn't like it." He said, "You

bet, and I enjoyed it." That was New York. But beyond New York. I always thought the public would say. "Son of a bitch is telling the truth." What if he pointed out that alcohol has caused far more harm than marijuana? "He's tell­ing me what he really thinks. And not only that-he may be right."

THOMPSON: I don't care if a guy fesses up to smoking marijuana or not. I think some issues are clear—51 percent clear, others maybe 90 percent clear. Then there are issues we have to take on. Bush is to be commended for raising the debate on Social Security. You can argue about how you'd do it and so forth, but he took it on. Let's take that and health care. I haven't studied health care enough to have a totally locked-in opinion on it, but here's the question: How in the world are we going to take care of our obliga­tions—these entitlements-in addition to our country's defense? Look at what's happening economically in France. Look at what is happening in Germany. That's where we're going to be in a few years. It's the result of years of failing to speak the obvious truth. It's the result of years of playing to constituent groups. You can continue spending increasing amounts only until it catches up with you. It will run you into the ground. Well, it's where we're headed, and everybody knows that.

GREENFIELD: In the first part of some of Winston Churchill's great speeches he laid out how horrible things were going to be. One of his first speeches as prime minister essentially began, "I've come here to tell you about the disaster we've just had at Dunkirk. I'm here to tell you just how wretched the planning was."

THOMPSON: If we were doing the right thing, we would ditch 75 percent of what Congress has on its plate and focus on a handful of things like Social Security and health care. They are tough and diffi­cult, but that's what I want to hear from these guys. I care about these issues. Someone has to look the American peo­ple in the eye and say, "This is the deal." You have to be able to stand up to your most avid supporters who are saying, "Look, I'm counting on this judgeship" or "I'm counting on these contracts" or "I'm counting on my son being assis­tant secretary of whatnot after I gave so much money to you." You have to stand up to all that. And that's from your people-what about your detractors? The pressure is tremendous for someone who wants to move up the ranks. But it's going to have to be done.

FRED THOMPSON AND JEFF GREENFIELD

EXAMINE HOW POLITICIANS TALK-AND WHY

THEY SO SELDOM SPEAK THE TRUTH