20 Questions: Brian Dennehy

Brian Dennehy's credits, piled one atop the other, stand as tall as the 6'3" Irish-American actor himself. His films include "Cocoon," "Presumed Innocent," "Gorky Park," "Best Seller," "10," "Silverado" and "First Blood," in which he was the first to unhinge Rambo. Dennehy's stage work moves easily from "The Iceman Cometh" to "The Cherry Orchard." He has enlivened TV and cable with "The Jackie Presser Story" and "To Catch a Killer," in which he played John Wayne Gacy. He's also writing and hoping to direct an adaptation of Elmore Leonard's "Swag" and will soon appear on TV as the chief psychiatrist in the series "Birdland," set in a mental hospital.

When Dennehy isn't working, you'll find him either at home in Santa Fe, New Mexico, at a new home near Dublin, Ireland or indulging a passion for sailing. Contributing Editor David Rensin met with Dennehy in Los Angeles, where the actor stopped briefly on a trip between Ireland and Vancouver, B.C. "Dennehy takes an entropic view of life," says Rensin. "But he seems eager enough to talk about any subject on earth, even though he thinks everything around us is falling apart."

1.

[Q] Playboy: What are the automatic privileges afforded to a man of size?

[A] Dennehy: They are dubious privileges at best. Years ago people I'd never met would come up to me in bars and say something like, "You're not so fucking tough." People always ask me if my size has helped or hurt me in this business. It's pretty much an even split. There are roles I'd love to do and don't get because of my size. But I don't go home at night and say, "You son of a bitch, why weren't you born Tom Cruise or Kevin Costner?" At some point you just say, "OK, this is it." I guess that's some kind of maturity. But I struggled with it for a long time. I was not happy being who I was. I went to Columbia on a football scholarship. There's something rewarding about making a good, hard tackle, but I was much more interested in the mental aspects of the game. While at school I contacted the Columbia Players, which was a famous drama group. I really wanted to be a part of it. Yet, because I was a well-known football player, there was no way. I remember vividly how much that hurt. I wanted that. And I knew I could not have it.

2.

[Q] Playboy: What would you like to be small enough to do?

[A] Dennehy: A love scene with Sharon Stone.

3.

[Q] Playboy: Didn't you once say that there are few love scenes for actors over 30 who don't have 32-inch waists? What important erotic secret is America missing because of that attitude?

[A] Dennehy: In France guys like Gérard Depardieu are sexy and interesting and are allowed complete lives on- and offscreen. In this country it's incomprehensible that someone over 50 might still be getting laid. That limits us. But it has always been that way in Hollywood. It's that old rationale: "Do I want to fuck her? If I want to fuck her, I'll give her the part in the movie. Because if I want to fuck her, everybody else wants to fuck her." Or it's "She's attractive, she can act, but I don't want to fuck her, so she can't have the part." It's all about fuckability.

Women actors have to be not only fuckable but unattainable, which is not to say that certain women haven't achieved success by being really attainable. When I was a kid I was crazy for Lilli Palmer because she was unattainable. The same thing is true of Sharon Stone. She is a very interesting and attractive woman. She has figured out that the process is a joke. It's a gag you play with the audience. You give up a little piece of yourself. But at the same time, you're winking at the audience, saying, "I know what you're thinking and you know that I know what you're thinking, and let's just have a good time and enjoy it." That is a critical breakthrough for an actor to make.

It's popular around this town to knock what Sharon's done the past couple years. Actually, what she figured out is extremely sophisticated. Demi Moore, for instance, desperately wants this thing, and the problem is you can see that. You can feel that. Film critic David Denby said that the overwhelming emotion Moore gives off is anger. The reason is that her desire comes out as "Goddamn it, why don't you get it? You know, I deserve to be a star." [Laughs] And maybe she does. She's not a bad actress. She's certainly attractive. Sharon Stone doesn't have that desperation. She has this coolness and this great sense of humor.

4.

[Q] Playboy: You could easily be talking about Madonna. Why can't she pull it off on the silver screen?

[A] Dennehy: She's not an enormously talented singer. She's not an enormously talented dancer. She's not a great songwriter. And yet she's the biggest star in the world simply through sheer fucking will. I respect her enormously. To get on the leading edge and stay there--especially for a woman--is miraculous. As for movies, she was kind of cute and spontaneous in her first few pictures. But she really has no respect for acting. I've met her once or twice. I get the impression that she's really bored. It was the same thing with Sinatra. Although he was a good and interesting actor for many years, he just hated the process of making movies because it was--and he's right, it is--fucking boring. It's hour after hour of just hanging around waiting to do these little bits and pieces. Sinatra couldn't stand the idea that 12 hours of his life were going by every day and he was working four or five minutes. That may be Madonna's problem. She doesn't want it to be boring, but it is.

The thing about acting, especially in front of a camera, is that you can't reach out and grab the camera and shake it and say, "I want this." It doesn't work that way. You have to figure out what it is that you want and then you have to hide it from the camera and you have to let the camera discover it. And it better be something you really want.

5.

[Q] Playboy: What are you obsessive about?

[A] Dennehy: Work, for sure. But in this country we take that as a given. Strange. [Pauses] As I get (continued on page 164)Brian Dennehy(continued from page 119) older I've been giving up a lot of my obsessions. I used to be a pretty serious drinker. Heavy in defiance of knowing my family situation, which is chock-full of alcoholism. For a long time I was a functional alcoholic, though it never got in the way of my work. But it affected relationships. I never killed anybody, but I made people unhappy, including myself and people who are extremely important to me, like my kids. It's easy to say I had a wonderful time and a lot of great years, and I did. There were some bad times, too. So that was not a major giveup. That time was due.

6.

[Q] Playboy: We hear you took co-star Steve Guttenberg out and got him drunk and in trouble. He's such a sweet kid. How could you?

[A] Dennehy: No, he didn't get drunk. I was drunk. Steve was panic-stricken. We were leaving a bar five minutes from our hotel and I was driving and I had had too much to drink and he insisted that he drive. Of course, I refused, which I was doing a lot of those days. We got into the car, drove away from the bar and a cop pulled us over. [Laughs] Steve, to his credit, jumped out of the car and said, "Officer, he's fine, he's OK. Listen, I'll take the wheel and I'll drive home." The officer, of course, signaled to me to get out of the car. I did and he said, "I want you to come over here and walk this line." I said, "Hey, come on, who are we kidding? I'm drunk as a fucking whatever. You got me, all right." They arrested me, took me in. Reporters were already at the station--someone had called the press. I walked over to them and the questions started. I said, "The cop was right. He did me a favor. He took me off the street. I had no business driving. I was an asshole. I was drunk. I'm not going to contest anything. End of story." And ironically, it was the end of the story. They had no interest in it after that.

7.

[Q] Playboy: What piece of sartorial advice stays with you?

[A] Dennehy: Tuck in your shirt--from every costume designer I ever worked with. When I did Cocoon we were shooting in St. Petersburg, Florida in August and September, and I was supposed to be an alien who had for some reason assumed this particular human guise. I don't know why the alien didn't pick Robert Redford. He picked me. You knew there was something wrong because he always dressed perfectly and always spoke perfectly. Which meant that I couldn't sweat and couldn't wrinkle. I drove the makeup people and the wardrobe people crazy, it was so fucking hot. And I bitched and moaned every minute of it. But, thank God, my career has never depended upon either my weistine or my sartorial elegance, because I would have been out of it a long time ago.

8.

[Q] Playboy: You have three daughters. Two are actors, one is a psychologist. Who encounters the most problems?

[A] Dennehy: Oh, the actors. My heart goes out to them. They get mad every time I say this, so I'm going to get in trouble again, but I just wish they had picked an easier life. It's a very tough life, especially for women. I did the best I could with my kids. I gave them educations and sent them out, hoping to Christ they wouldn't get burned or burn themselves. My kids are really good kids who like being who they are. But in this fucking business rejection is your daily bread. I watch them deal with it and suffer with it, and it breaks my heart. And there's not much I can do. Every once in a while I can pull a string, but, ultimately, I don't even know if that's a good thing. Maybe I'm making a mistake. Am I just prolonging the agony? And these are talented, trained kids. They know what they're doing. They do good work, and from time to time they get into something and they make a living. But it's frustrating for me because I want them to be secure and happy. The funny thing is, they are happy. That's what really drives me crazy.

9.

[Q] Playboy: You played John Wayne Gacy, the child abuser and killer. How do you prepare for a role that must turn your stomach?

[A] Dennehy: It does turn your stomach. But you don't worry about the stuff that turns your stomach. To act that part properly you try to create the side of John Wayne Gacy that's like us. He killed at least 30 people in a horrible and revolting way. And that's pretty fucking bad. But what's really scary is that he lived in the suburbs, he had a business, he was involved in politics, he was active in the chamber of commerce. He did all the things everybody else did, year in and year out, while he was doing these other things. What's chilling is that he was not someone who ran off the fucking deep end when he was 19 and killed a bunch of people, like Charlie Stark-weather did. In fact, it's easier to play guys like Gacy because they are so extreme.

10.

[Q] Playboy: How often are you mistaken for Brian Keith and asked about Mr. French and the kids?

[A] Dennehy: It used to be a lot, but he hasn't been around much lately. It's funny, we actually look a little bit alike. We both have this big, jutting jaw, and I used to have blond hair--it's pretty much gray now. And he's just such a wonderful guy--a funny, sweet, gruff character. Or I'm mistaken for Charlie Durning. It makes me wonder why I'm always mistaken for guys 20 years older than me. But I get it all the time: "What ever happened to that little girl who played Buffy?" I've taken the greatest pleasure in saying, "She died of a drug overdose."

11.

[Q] Playboy: You're writing a screenplay of, and plan to direct, Elmore Leonard's Swag. What does Leonard know about life that you want everyone to learn?

[A] Dennehy: He looks at American life from a completely different angle. It's low. It's the reflection of the American dream. It's the guys who have marginal jobs, who drive trucks or work in used-car lots, and every once in a while they're in trouble for armed robbery or boosting something, or they're trying to scheme and hustle, and they're really not smart enough to be major crooks. But this is America, and they want a nice house and a family and everything the same as everybody else. They just don't know how to go about it legitimately. Leonard sees this entire universe out here among us.

12.

[Q] Playboy: You're a devoted sailor. What is the allure of the open sea?

[A] Dennehy: I've been sailing for 25 years, and what fascinates me most is that the sea doesn't know you're there and it doesn't care. It doesn't care what your tax return was last year. It doesn't care what your gross was. It doesn't care who your agent is. It has no knowledge of you. For most of us who have a solid sense of who the fuck we are and where we fit--we have this phone number and this job and this relationship with these people--to place oneself deliberately in a situation where none of that means a fucking thing is awesome. The decisions you make in the next 15 minutes with that boat, yourself and the crew are going to determine whether or not you survive the next ten or 12 hours. Ninety-nine percent of us never find ourselves in that situation, at least not on purpose. But for me to have 12 days and 2600 miles to go, I'm betting I can beat the weather and the current. I'm betting the fucking mast or sails don't fall down, that I don't make any navigational mistakes and that I'll show up on the other side. I'm saying I'm going to take charge of this tiny little world, which is almost completely cut off. Most of us don't have to, don't want to, can't even find a way.

13.

[Q] Playboy: Your younger brother is in the FBI. Does that make you more positive or more cynical about federal law enforcement? Did you see this coming with him as a kid?

[A] Dennehy: [Laughs] He's the most liberal person I have ever known. We have arguments. I'm always kidding him that it's the hardest thing in the world just to get him on the phone, just to get anybody to answer the phone at FBI headquarters.

It's always been real simple for us to take the obvious examples of police inefficiency or brutality and then beat up on an entire group of people. The Rodney King case is the most obvious. But being an Irish American from New York, I've known cops all my life. These are guys who get up every day and do this terrible, fucking dangerous, fucked-up job for no money. And, in a way, my brother's one of them. Are there assholes? Sure. But most of them are not assholes. Most of them are decent people placed in extremely difficult, dirty circumstances. And if they make a mistake, they're fucked. We can't wait to fuck them. That is, if they don't get killed first.

My brother always wanted to be in the FBI. And in the mid-Sixties, that was a real honorable thing. It just shows you how the world has changed.

14.

[Q] Playboy: Among the Irish's national characteristics are a fondness for alcohol, the beauty of their women, explosive tempers and their ability to hold a grudge for a really, really long time. Care to comment or add any we missed?

[A] Dennehy: I have a little cottage in Ireland on the coast. I love the place. The Irish are an interesting phenomenon. Wonderful people, talented and glowing and funny. They have a wonderful, dark, absurd sense of humor. But like most people in that category, they're also very self-destructive. The real analogy for the Irish would be the Russians. Both have subjected themselves for the past couple thousand years to one orthodoxy or another. And both are just now emerging from the orthodoxy of the Church. The Irish, of course, are also masters of melancholy. It's more than sadness. It's the sense that if your heart hasn't been broken yet, sooner or later it will be. You're just waiting. I know some deeply black melancholy Irishmen who are truly terrifying. I've never been one of those, thank God.

15.

[Q] Playboy: Should the world stop picking on Sinéad O'Connor?

[A] Dennehy: Whatever the world does, as far as the Irish are concerned, it's wrong. If the world makes you a big star, the Irish trash you to death. But if the world kicks you around, then you're one of them. Sinéad O'Connor is a real tough Dublin kid with a terrific voice, very much in touch with her emotions. She created a sensation. But while she was a star in America and Europe, they hated her in Dublin. I was there. They were trashing her on the talk shows and radio. Then she made this enormous gaffe on television--ripping up a picture of the Pope--and it blew up in her face. She fled back to Dublin probably not fully understanding what she'd done. And the Irish, being the Irish, took her in. They welcomed her back and smothered her with love and affection, and all was forgiven.

16.

[Q] Playboy: You served one five-year tour in Vietnam and were injured twice, though not seriously. Ever kill anyone? Is there a Vietnam film that nails the experience best?

[A] Dennehy: It's funny how we're all fascinated by Vietnam right now. Fifteen years ago no one wanted to deal with it. I find this current fascination as worrisome as our former tendency to deny the problem existed. As for killing someone, anyone in combat would agree that it's pretty much accidental. It's not what you're thinking about. You spend a considerable amount of time just trying not to be in a combat situation. You're trying to avoid coming face-to-face with anything. So when something bad happens, it's usually accidental. But the implication in war movies is that war has this rational beginning, middle and end. And of course none of it does. It's absolutely fucking chaos. Apocalypse Now is the movie. Even more interesting is that it was made so soon after the war was over. It was about the war and a parable about the war. It was and is the most sophisticated overview of the experience.

The only important thing to say about Vietnam now is that there is one thing we have not come to terms with: It was a class war. President Clinton found a way to get out of it. On the other hand, I think the American military is one of the great institutional success stories of the past 15 years. If you knew, as I knew, how demoralized and screwed up and devastated the American military was in 1975, that some 15 years later it would have managed to become an all-volunteer Army, to incorporate major social change, put women in many more positions than ever before and become this razor blade of an organization that could pull off Operation Desert Storm is a great thing.

17.

[Q] Playboy: You've been in motion pictures, theater, and TV and cable productions. If you could write a memo to all those industries describing what's wrong and what's right, what would it say?

[A] Dennehy: [Laughs] It would be a long memo. What's fascinating is that at one time all the childish, moronic shit was on television and all the really interesting and provocative stuff--and people--was in films. So what's happened in 15 years? The movies now are Dennis the Menace, Batman, Gilligan's Island, The Flintstones. And I'm not talking $5 million movies. I'm talking $30 million, $40 million movies. Even Jurassic Park, as incredible an achievement as it is, by the greatest filmmaker in the history of the business, is still a popular diversion. But on TV there's real interesting stuff. Instead of making new versions of The A-Team, the networks and cable are going to people such as Oliver Stone, Barry Levinson, Walter Parkes and saying, "Here's a million dollars, do something, help us."

18.

[Q] Playboy: Can you describe the excesses of the Santa Fe style?

[A] Dennehy: An unhealthy preoccupation with ceramic chili peppers would be one. And howling coyotes. That stuff is silly. Anybody who spends any time in Santa Fe knows it. But unfortunately, neckerchiefs on dogs have spread all over. The tragedy of a place like Santa Fe is that it is so wonderful and so special, all kinds of people will eventually move there and it will become something else. And I can't complain, because, you know, I moved there myself. It's just that I was there five years ago, so I consider myself something of an old-timer.

19.

[Q] Playboy: You've acted with Gene Hackman, Bill Hurt and Harrison Ford--all known for being quiet men. What can you say about them that they wouldn't say for themselves?

[A] Dennehy: Gene is the great American actor. Also a very nice, very private man. I can't think of too many people I respect more than him. He's also my neighbor in Santa Fe. Bill Hurt was actually very helpful to me. We did Gorky Park together. I had always been kicking around, just trying to survive, and Bill was the first guy to say, "You have something special and you should treat it that way." I don't know if I've always listened to that advice, but he was the first person to say that to me. Harrison Ford is positively shy. With him it's not just modesty. He has that peculiar ability to disappear. He puts on those glasses, and people just don't recognize him. It's amazing. And he uses it.

20.

[Q] Playboy: What's the best advice you've ever gotten from a bartender?

[A] Dennehy: It was always a variation of the same phrase: "Don't you think it's time to go home now, Mr. Dennehy?"

acting's perpetual heavyweight contender explains the lure of the sea, the fine points of irish melancholia and his big plans for sharon stone