An Interview with pope John Paul II

comedy's infamous fallen catholic goes one-on-one with the cat in the vatican

After a hip operation caused him to cancel his trip to the U.S. last fall--a global jaunt that would have coincided with the publication of his book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, thereby christening the first-ever papal press tour--his high holiness Pope John Paul II decided to let the book speak for itself. Amid the resulting clamor for satellite press conferences, e-mail interviews and other such modern-day encounters, the pontiff settled on doing a single Q and A session--face-to-face with a lone journalist, and for only 15 mintes.

Speculation immediately settled on such journalistic luminaries as Barbara Walters, Connie Chung and Walter Cronkite. But on the afternoon of December 15, 1994 my telephone rang. It was Ray Flynn, ambassador to the Vatican, informing me that a plane was waiting to fly me to Rome to meet his high holiness. (Ray Flynn used to be the mayor of Boston, where I grew up. One night a few years back I talked Ray out of lambasting a Boston University sophomore who had called Larry Bird "an overrated, overweight mick" in McSweeney's pub. I suppose this anecdote--combined with my credentials as an ex-altar boy and spokesman for the MTV generation--had now led to a little payback.)

I arrived in Rome on December 16 and the next morning was given a tour of the Vatican. Then the guidelines of my interview with the Pope were spelled out to me in detail: The entire conversation had to be printed verbatim, and the Pope would have ultimate approval of its contents. I agreed to the terms, and at noon I was ushered into the papal suite, where his high holiness sat in a red velvet chair, resplendent in his white satin robes. I kissed his ring and we began.

•

Pope: Sit, my son. Sit.

Me: Here, sir?

Pope: Yes. Yes.

Me: I, uh. . . . How's your leg, your high holiness?

Pope: It's sore. But in view of the troubles on the planet, alas, it is nothing.

Me: Um, yeah. Well, uh, your, uh, high holiness----

Pope: Call me Jack.

Me: Oh, no. No, I couldn't.

Pope: I'm kidding. Your holiness is fine.

Have you read my book?

Me: Yes. Yes, your holiness.

Pope: Good. Good. Ray Flynn tells me you're in the movies.

Me: Well, I----

Pope: I see a lot of movies.

Me: Really?

Pope: What would I have seen you in?

Me: Well, uh, lemme see. Did you see The Ref?

Pope: The Ref? No, no, no, no. I heard it was very vulgar.

Me: You heard?

Pope: Yeah. My staff sees everything. As does my boss, if you know what I mean.

I saw The Mask.

Me: You did?

Pope: Yes. And Ace Ventura: Pet Detective. Very funny. Very, very funny. Do you know Jim Carrey?

Me: Well, we've met. We're not, like----

Pope: He is a terribly talented young man.

Me: Yes. Well----

Pope: Is he Catholic, do you know?

Me: I, uh, I think so. You know, we should----

Pope: Those are the kinds of movies we need more of. Good, clean fun. For the whole family.

Me: Right. So. . . .

Pope: I mean, I'm not against a good laugh every once in a while.

Me: No?

Pope: No. For instance, how many Polacks does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Me: I wouldn't know.

Pope: Twelve.

Me: Twelve?

Pope: Eleven to hold the ladder and one to stand off to the side and say, "You know what? I think we need another guy." Ha, ha!

[The pontiff convulses in laughter, almost falling out of his chair twice. It takes several minutes for him to catch his breath.]

Pope: [Drying his eyes] You don't like that one?

Me: No, I do. It's--funny.

Pope: Hoo, boy. Hey, would you like something to eat?

Me: Uh, well, I----

Pope: Angelo!

[A rotund man wearing a black tuxedo enters the room.]

Angelo: Yes, your holiness?

Pope: Two pastramis on rye. Very hot. You like pastrami?

Me: Uh, yes.

Pope: Good! (continued on page 142)John Paul II(continued from page 131)

Angelo, don't skimp on the mustard.

Angelo: Yes, your holiness.

Pope: And two Heinekens.

Angelo: Yes, your holiness.

[Angelo exits.]

Pope: You look surprised.

Me: No, no. I, uh--

Pope: I hate Italian food. Give me a good kielbasa or a roast beef sub. Ah, that's what I like. Now, where were we? me: Do you listen to Sinéad O'Connor? pope: No, no, no. I'm not a big rock fan. I like Loggins and Messina, Seals and Croft, Bread. I don't see the point in shaving your skull unless you're old and bald like me. I like the Chant album by those monks.

Me: Yeah?

Pope: Oh, boy. I get in the Popemobile, put on the monks, crank it up to ten. Oh, my God! I could wave at the crowds all day. Great sound system in the Popemobile. Japanese, I think. Lovely people.

Me: Let's move on. In an era of sequels--Batman 3, Sister Act 2--was John Paul I a tough act to follow?

Pope: Now, see? That's what I'm talking about. Jim Carrey would never ask that question.

Me: OK, OK, I'm sorry.

Pope: OK, then.

Me: What's the story with the hats?

Pope: The hats?

Me: You know, to me it seems that the entire Catholic church is built on the importance of hats. The bigger the guy, the bigger the hat.

Pope: Well, my son, they're for show more than anything. People love to see them. It's all part of the pomp and circumstance, if you will.

Me: I understand, your holiness, but with so many poor and hungry Third World nations embracing Catholicism, doesn't it seem a little----

Pope: Look, my son, we know what we're doing. We send a lot of money to the poor and downtrodden. But to raise money, we have to go to the places that have good cash flow--like the U.S.--and put on a show. So to speak.

Me: A show?

Pope: Well, like when I said Mass in Yankee Stadium a few years back. We drew 75,632 people. Still a record in that park. Babe Ruth, Jolting Joe, Reggie--no way. They never pulled in those numbers. Now, do you think 75,000 people came because they wanted to go to Mass? No! They came because they got to see me--the Pope--dressed in green-and-gold vestments and wearing the biggest darn hat you ever saw! Without the hat, I'm just another Polish putz behind an altar. Ah, but with the hat--forget about it! They tell their neighbors, "You shoulda seen the size of the hat on this guy!"

Me: So, what you're saying is----

Pope: Hey, it's just a hat. Don't get crazy. Look, do you know how much money I could make on pay-per-view? Forget about Howard Stern! Are you nuts? Or I could do an exercise video. Or I could do fake miracles, raise-the-dead stuff, the whole nine yards. But I don't. All of that is too gauche. So give me a break on the hats. I don't even have an agent. But believe me, if I called Mike Ovitz right now, he'd be sitting in your chair in less than 14 hours.

Me: OK, OK, your highness--I mean, your holiness. It's just that in your book you espouse the old, hard-line Catholic dogma regarding sexual behavior and the involvement of women in the day-to-day functions of----

Pope: Yes. I do. But I also make it clear we must listen to the arguments of contemporary voices and absorb their concerns into the body of the church.

Me: But you still will not recognize----

Pope: Recognition is not a simple issue, my son. Sexual behavior is. Angelo!

[Angelo reenters.]

Angelo: Yes, your holiness?

Pope: Where are the sandwiches?

Angelo: On their way, your holiness.

[Angelo exits.]

Pope: No birth control. Love is a sacred bond. "Be fruitful and multiply."

Me: Yes, your holiness, I know. But in view of the pressures of modern society and the fact that millions of Catholics are leaving the church every----

Pope: You didn't read my book.

Me: Yes, I did.

Pope: No. I can tell you didn't. You read the breakdown.

Me: I read the book. The whole book.

Pope: [Narrowing his eyes] You know that lying to me is a mortal sin.

Me: No, it's not.

Pope: It certainly is.

Me: Look, your majesty, your . . . whatever. I know the rules of the Catholic church and----

Pope: All the rules?

Me: Yes! All the main big ones about sin and stuff, and I know they haven't changed lying to a mortal sin.

Pope: How do you know we haven't?

Me: Because it wasn't announced. You always have to announce it. You tell the cardinals and they tell the bishops and they tell the priests and the priests tell my mother and my mother tells me.

Pope: [Smiling] Sometimes we don't announce changes.

Me: Why not?

Pope: Because God the Father doesn't want them announced.

Me: Well, then, that brings up another issue. Do you actually speak with God?

Pope: Yes.

Me: How often?

Pope: Every day.

Me: Every day?

Pope: I have a red phone in my office, and every morning around nine it lights up. [Silence] I'm kidding.

Me: Very funny.

Pope: No, truthfully, when you're named Pope they surgically implant a computer chip into your brain stem and----

Me: Very funny.

Pope: Heh, heh. All kidding aside, he speaks to me. He speaks through me.

Me: Really?

Pope: Yes.

Me: Uh-huh. Now----

Pope: You don't believe me?

Me: Well, I dunno. I, uh. . . .

Pope: You don't believe me.

Me: No, no--I do. Kind of. I mean, I believe you believe that. That is to say----

Pope: Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Me: OK, then what does he tell you?

Pope: Everything.

Me: What do you mean?

Pope: He tells me everything he wants to talk about on that particular day.

Me: Like?

Pope: Well, I'm not really allowed to divulge all of it--

Me: Just a little. Like, how about today? What did he tell you today?

Pope: Well . . . OK. Let me get my list.

Me: By all means.

Pope: [Fumbles in pocket] Uh, let's see. . . .

[The pope produces a linen napkin with his initials embroidered on it. Several notes are scribbled along the edges in ballpoint pen. He puts on his reading glasses.]

Pope: OK. Today, he wanted to give me a few notes about recent events surrounding the abortion issue.

Me: Uh-huh.

Pope: And a directive on a priest in Chile who has been very involved in some political turmoil down there.

Me: Uh-huh. Anything else?

Pope: And what else. Oh, yes. He wanted to tell me that last night you masturbated to a pornographic movie on Spectravision in your hotel room.

[Silence]

Me: I'm sorry. What did you say?

Pope: Channel eight, I believe.

Me: You've lost me here. I----

Pope: You climaxed after three minutes (concluded on page 161)John Paul II(continued from page 142) and 11.3 seconds--thereby beating, if you'll excuse the pun, the time limit on the free preview.

God sees masturbation as absolutely harmless! A release! By God, I even give it a yank myself sometimes.

[More silence]

Me: Look, you could've gotten that information from some plant in the hotel. This whole country is Mafia-run, and they're all Catholics, so it wouldn't surprise me----

Pope: Two weeks ago in Chicago you climaxed in two minutes and 23.2 seconds while watching Crocodile Blondee on Spectravision, channel seven, at the Embassy Suites, State Street.

[Still more silence]

Me: So----

Pope: He sees all, my son. He sees all. He has told me everything.

Me: Everything?

Pope: Yes. Everything. Like the time you broke into the rectory closet and stole a jar of hosts when you were 12. The oral sex with Eileen O'Connor behind the convent. That time in New York City with the black woman you thought was just big-boned when in fact she was a----

Me: OK, OK--I get the point.

Pope: Good. Now, have you read my book?

Me: Yes. [Pause] No.

Pope: Ah-ha!

Me: I've just been so busy.

Pope: Join the club. When was the last time you went to Mass?

Me: I don't know. Five, six years ago.

[A moment of silence]

Me: OK, OK. Seventeen years ago.

Pope: That's better. Now, I want you to go back home to the U.S., read my book over and over until you know it back to front, start going to Mass regularly and then, six months from now--and only if you've kept up your attendance--I will allow you to interview me again. OK?

Me: OK.

Pope: Stop downstairs on your way out and say ten Hail Marys and ten Our Fathers as penance.

Me: Do I have to?

Pope: Yes.

Me: Can I ask one last question?

Pope: Sure.

Me: Does, um, does God really consider, uh----

Pope: Masturbation?

Me: Yeah. Yeah. Does he really consider it a sin?

Pope: Hell, no! He sees it as absolutely harmless. A release! By God, I even give it a yank myself sometimes. We have Spectravision right here in the Vatican!

Me: Wow!

Pope: I'm kidding.

Me: Oh, man.

Pope: Like a fish on a hook, I had you. Ha-ha!

Me: It's not funny.

Pope: I'll say it's not! Every time you do it, it's two more weeks in hell.

Me: Oh my God.

Pope: You can say that again. You better start praying, pal.

[Angelo arrives with the sandwiches and the beer.]

Pope: Ah, Angelo! I may have to make you a saint. Look at this spread! Now, Angelo, wrap up Mr. Leary's sandwich. He has to leave.

[Angelo takes my sandwich and exits.]

Pope: I hope you have found this enlightening, my son.

Me: Yes, your holiness.

Pope: What do you think of my ring?

Me: It's, uh, um----

Pope: Super Bowl, my ass! Hey, Angelo! Where the hell's the mustard?

The entire Catholic church is built on the importance of hats. The bigger the guy, the bigger the hat.